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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#161 - 2014-02-13 10:30:53 UTC
Andski wrote:
The problem is that the majority of anomalies in 0.0 are never run because they're ****-tier. I'm sorry but "let's make 2-3 types of worthwhile anomalies and, to balance it out, make the rest so horrible that nobody will run them" isn't good game design.

A fully upgraded system with good truesec should support more than a few simultaneous anomaly runners. Make them more challenging, whatever, but make them worth running.


TBH this is a good idea, a huge payout in terms of module value, etc, but only completable by moderate sized gang and/or capital ships. Because mmm mmm the temptation to bring out a couple dreads and seige them will be too much, and everyone likes surprising a ratting capital ship...
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2014-02-13 11:06:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
The problem is that the majority of anomalies in 0.0 are never run because they're ****-tier. I'm sorry but "let's make 2-3 types of worthwhile anomalies and, to balance it out, make the rest so horrible that nobody will run them" isn't good game design.

A fully upgraded system with good truesec should support more than a few simultaneous anomaly runners. Make them more challenging, whatever, but make them worth running.


This, It's the same with escalations. They're all shite basically.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Taal Khurin
Acorn Harvesting
#163 - 2014-02-13 11:11:56 UTC
Blimey, i had no idea the coalitions had so much influence.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2014-02-13 12:39:02 UTC
Andski wrote:
The problem is that the majority of anomalies in 0.0 are never run because they're ****-tier. I'm sorry but "let's make 2-3 types of worthwhile anomalies and, to balance it out, make the rest so horrible that nobody will run them" isn't good game design.

A fully upgraded system with good truesec should support more than a few simultaneous anomaly runners. Make them more challenging, whatever, but make them worth running.

No the problem is you're renting your space instead of using it. Stop whining.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#165 - 2014-02-13 12:56:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No the problem is you're renting your space instead of using it. Stop whining.

The ownership model does not affect how many people a single system can support.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2014-02-13 12:59:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No the problem is you're renting your space instead of using it. Stop whining.

The ownership model does not affect how many people a single system can support.

It affects how many systems they have to run and that affects how many high end anoms are available in total to run.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#167 - 2014-02-13 13:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
It affects how many systems they have to run and that affects how many high end anoms are available in total to run.
No, it doesn't. They have to to run just as many systems no matter what since the amount of people that need to be supported and the amount of people a single system can support remain constant.

The ownership model does not affect how many people a single system can support and the problem is that it can't support that many since the anomalies are crap. Making crap that gets ignored to “balance out” good stuff is not good design no matter how much you try to involve irrelevant factors such as ownership models (since they have exactly zero impact on the mechanics involved).
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-02-13 13:16:25 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Jump-drives and force projection means that there is no "behind the line", there are no "far-away places".

Because of jump-drives, pod-jumping, clone-jumping and bridges of all kinds, the universe is very small.

This is part of why the little guy can't do anything.

Then there is the sov system. Millions of HPs to grind, mails telling the owners what's going on etc.

There is no suprise, no stealth. You can't stealthly attack any sov structure nor any POSes because the owners will receive a mail instantly.

There is no guerilla, because in EVE, the entire US army moves as fast and as effectively as a BlackHawk with an elite SEAL squad.

There is no "small objective", because all structures have millions of HP and there is no possiblity for a suprise attack because you need to tell everyone what you're doing by anchoring and onlining SBUs.

This explains force projection issues pretty well

Let's see what's currently happening in nullsec. CFC vs N3. Won't talk about Proviblock because well, they're kinda irrelevent in the big picture.

CFC bitchslapped N3. What's going to happen now ? What is stopping the CFC from capturing N3's territory ? Nothing. Nothing in this game but DBRB's boring stories and Vily's *******-fueled welps can stop the CFC from capturing anything they want, anywhere.

Alright, let's say something happens. CFC captures N3 territory and resets Russians. Russians split in two. Alright, great, that's 4 coalitions !

No, look again. Russians will eventually fight eachother for no meaningful ingame ressource or anything, just an ego fight or a "I don't like you" kind of thing. Alright.

The CFC won't ever lose territory anywhere because of force projection.

Proviblock will probably stay in Providence until the CFC or the Russians decide that it's enough and they want that place.

Is this what we call "Not stagnant" ?

Map from 2007

Map from 2014

If you remove the usual chokepoint fights from 2007, there were 5 warzones. Yes, FIVE.

Now come 2014, the game has grown a lot, the playerbase has grown a lot too. How many warzones ?

One. Proviblock was told to sit in a corner by the CFC because they dared put up some SBUs in some place the CFC isn't even using or are remotely interested in.

Yes, THIS, IS CALLED "STAGNATION".


This is a good post, and more people need to read it.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2014-02-13 13:18:07 UTC
Goons realize SirMolle's dream of a unified nullsec.

Cultural Victory! Smile

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2014-02-13 13:23:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Baltec, soloing L4s in hi-sec will not earn you 120 mil/hour. If you are very quick maybe you'll get 50? Now if w'ere talking about multiboxing it, different story. Anyways, I still agree about hi-sec profits overall.


It was tested with a single mach, it pulled 118 mil/hr.

50 mil/hr was what a single ishtar was netting in level 3 missions even after the drone changes.



LOL..yes, people certainly believe any proof coming from a goon, who set the standard for honesty in the game.
Hey baltec, according to another study with equal veracity as this, you are considered as a safer person for 3rd party super-cap trading than Chribba.


I can verify that claim Baltec1 handled the escrow when I was buying a titan. I got my titan the seller got their money and everyone lived happily ever after. Would use Baltec1 again.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#171 - 2014-02-13 14:06:40 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In that case your numbers are wrong. I ran missions to get isk since 2003 and there is no way to make 100 million per hour IMO.


Then you are bad at running missions. We have easy access to data that gives the rewards for every mission, how long it takes to run them, how much time is spent in warp and payment breakdowns.

All of this information is easy to find on several sites and in game if you take the time to test this like we have done. We are continuing to gather more and more data so that we can hand it over to CCP in CSM meetings and get them to fix this very long standing balance problem which will help with getting more people in smaller corps/alliances interested in trying to take a bitof null for themselves. Right now there is no reason to fight us for a worthless null system.



Heh, "how much time spent in warp" Kid you keep talking about this "data" you have, and well I don't really feel like spending an hour or 2 trying to find this misery data. If you'd be so kind, post a link.


Personally I've been missioning for most the whole time I've been play, with the exception of a few months in WH, and a year in null.
Missioning, even with a pimpfit ship (which since the Nado is more of a liability than a benefit) and playing your cards right on LP (Though you can get a little more if you just spammed SOE LP, cause there's always a need for SOE probes. they really need to add a competing brand)
You might be lucky to break 65mil/hr.
If you have a ship set up for a specific mission, and you place yourself in an area with several agents and can get that mission often. In my case, this mission is Angel Extravaganza, and its run with a Golem (back on that whole, pimpfit mach is a liability, T2 golem gets scanning ships in missions but they leave after scanning for deadspace mods and finding nothing worth the cost of the 6 nadoes sitting a jump away that my friend is warning me about)
I might make 75-80mil/hr.
After salvage/loot you might get an extra 10-15mil

Some chains of missions, with full salvage/loot however you get quite a bit more.
#1 I'm pointing to is the Enemies Abound mission chain, which if you blast though in a ship (I used my Golem for it, even before the bastion mod) its not unreasonable in the 1.25-2.5 hours you do the chain, to see a nice 175-225 mil from it. (adjusted depending on local prices for tags, I've managed to get almost 250% over Jita prices by sell-ordering some tags a couple regions over)

During my time in null however, running around with a 100% dps Abaddon, in the drone regions (read that as theres no loot to make it more worthwhile) I was easily getting 100mil/hr + occasional niceties from sentients. Hell I was getting about 50-60mil/hr with a Drake. If only if only I'da had a Nightmare out there.



Yes though they do need to nerf L4s a bit income wise. Changing that though won't fix the bots, and it won't make it all that much better to try and move into null for the little guy because the big guys still have too much force projection.
ALso they jsut need to fix the smaller anoms. There should be the ability for people in null to anom without having to use common nullbear-grade battleships or carriers. Make some incentive for everyone in null to be anoming in their panicfleet HACs and BCs


You are also running them wrong. You don't aim for the most isk when running level 4 missions, you go for the most LP.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2014-02-13 15:45:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No the problem is you're renting your space instead of using it. Stop whining.


wow please share more of your sage advice with somebody who knows this subject much better than you do

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#173 - 2014-02-13 15:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
in fact I advise anyone reading this thread to just ignore whatever Infinity Ziona says because he literally posts complete lies in every thread about 0.0 (such as "I make 100 billion isk per hour in -0.1 systems it's not broken!!!!") and in fact doesn't really have the first clue about the subjects he talks about

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2014-02-13 16:07:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
in fact I advise anyone reading this thread to just ignore whatever Infinity Ziona says because he literally posts complete lies in every thread about 0.0 (such as "I make 100 billion isk per hour in -0.1 systems it's not broken!!!!") and in fact doesn't really have the first clue about the subjects he talks about


This literally can't be emphasized enough.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I just want to see Goons burn


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4159522#post4159522

The dude has no clue about anything he talks about but, really hates us so even if we want a change that is good for the game and to our detriment, supercap/tech/FW/sovfix/drone assist, he'd be against it. Ignoring him is an anodyne for your own mental health.

E: See sig for proof highsec needs a nerf.

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Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#175 - 2014-02-13 16:52:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
After salvage/loot you might get an extra 10-15mil

Some chains of missions, with full salvage/loot however you get quite a bit more.
So, here's your main problem: you salvage and loot. This has a tendency to massively reduce your income, especially if you do it fully.

It was fairly easy to get 75M/h four years ago, when the tools and mission manipulation abilities weren't nearly as good as they are today.



I don't personally loot/salvage any mission other than the EA chain (because thats the only way it becomes profitable)

I fleet up with noobs and let them salvage my missions for free (cause I like noobs). But I always have them give me a listing of what money they made.

baltec1 wrote:

You are also running them wrong. You don't aim for the most isk when running level 4 missions, you go for the most LP.


Well when going for navy or equivalent LPs is really unworth it, and the SOE LPs seems to jsut pull aggro from gankers wever present in those systems. Going for the LPs only really works well for the navies if you have enough friends in lowsec to get you L5s without much danger.

Also I think its silly when people calim that LP is the best goal of missioing. In your isk/hr are you factoring all the extra time in that you search out a good market inwhich to sell your goods? What about hauling time? Or does everyone just live/sell in jita in your world?
I don't count LPs as part of the ISK/hr in missioning because they often require several more hours to get your money out of.
But hey I'm just a casual player and only put a couple hours into the game at a time when I can.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#176 - 2014-02-13 17:00:43 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Well when going for navy or equivalent LPs is really unworth it, and the SOE LPs seems to jsut pull aggro from gankers wever present in those systems. Going for the LPs only really works well for the navies if you have enough friends in lowsec to get you L5s without much danger.

Also I think its silly when people calim that LP is the best goal of missioing. In your isk/hr are you factoring all the extra time in that you search out a good market inwhich to sell your goods? What about hauling time? Or does everyone just live/sell in jita in your world?
Since you can batch those or even run them completely remotely, they are a pretty much insignificant addition to your time. And LP is always the better earner at higher levels simply because of how quickly they can be gained compared to just shooting red crosses.

Even navy LP is more than worth-while, and they're the lowest-valued LP there is. If you go elsewhere, you can only go up from that already very profitable baseline.

Quote:
I don't count LPs as part of the ISK/hr in missioning because they often require several more hours to get your money out of.
But hey I'm just a casual player and only put a couple hours into the game at a time when I can.

If you're a casual player, LPs are if anything even more worth it since the whole cashing out bit is something that happens while you sleep.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#177 - 2014-02-13 17:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
After salvage/loot you might get an extra 10-15mil

Some chains of missions, with full salvage/loot however you get quite a bit more.
So, here's your main problem: you salvage and loot. This has a tendency to massively reduce your income, especially if you do it fully.

It was fairly easy to get 75M/h four years ago, when the tools and mission manipulation abilities weren't nearly as good as they are today.



I don't personally loot/salvage any mission other than the EA chain (because thats the only way it becomes profitable)

I fleet up with noobs and let them salvage my missions for free (cause I like noobs). But I always have them give me a listing of what money they made.

baltec1 wrote:

You are also running them wrong. You don't aim for the most isk when running level 4 missions, you go for the most LP.


Well when going for navy or equivalent LPs is really unworth it, and the SOE LPs seems to jsut pull aggro from gankers wever present in those systems. Going for the LPs only really works well for the navies if you have enough friends in lowsec to get you L5s without much danger.

Also I think its silly when people calim that LP is the best goal of missioing. In your isk/hr are you factoring all the extra time in that you search out a good market inwhich to sell your goods? What about hauling time? Or does everyone just live/sell in jita in your world?
I don't count LPs as part of the ISK/hr in missioning because they often require several more hours to get your money out of.
But hey I'm just a casual player and only put a couple hours into the game at a time when I can.


LP is what makes up the bulk of your income when running missions (in the case of level 3s its over 60% of takings). We also have tools that take LP/isk convertions for every item at jita prices which is linked live to the market and also price histories. It takes all of 30 seconds to look up what is best. Transporting can be done in a blockade runner which get huge warp speeds and are as close to unstoppable as you can get. 10 min is all you need.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#178 - 2014-02-13 17:20:46 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Also I think its silly when people calim that LP is the best goal of missioing. In your isk/hr are you factoring all the extra time in that you search out a good market inwhich to sell your goods? What about hauling time? Or does everyone just live/sell in jita in your world?
I don't count LPs as part of the ISK/hr in missioning because they often require several more hours to get your money out of.
But hey I'm just a casual player and only put a couple hours into the game at a time when I can.


Based on a couple of different studies done by different mission runners in highsec (Stoicfaux and myself) LP (regardless of corporation the missions are run for) represents 45-70% of the total take from missions. Whether you take the time to cash them in or not, the LP still has a value determined by existing market conditions that exceeds mission rewards or bounties.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#179 - 2014-02-13 17:44:27 UTC
I'm loving the people saying "You can't count LP" when LP is the primary motivator for running missions.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#180 - 2014-02-13 18:51:36 UTC
this thread is not about missions.