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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2014-02-12 17:45:44 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
At their own expense.
Of course, and so what, since the point is to hurt the moon holders.

Quote:
This would only be worth it if you were an enemy of the party, rather than just a guy looking to get some ISK.
…and yet, they're not used for that purpose, which proves that they're useless for it.

Quote:
They aren't used much because the parties with the biggest incentive to use them have agreed to not use them via a handshake deal.
If you think for a second that they wouldn't be mass-abused by everyone + dog if they were in any way effective, you are laughably naïve. Maybe you haven't noticed, but handshake deals have a tendency of surviving for roughly four server ticks, and since there are so many parties that have lots of incentive to put the hurt on moon holders, you should see them being strewn all over the place.

Apparently, this isn't happening. The only real reason for that is because there's no reason to use them, not because a few parties have made some deal not to. That would just mena there's even more reason for everyone else to do so.

Quote:
Nothing has shown their lack of use.
…other than both you and the people living around them claiming that they aren't being used. I take it you were just making things up then?

So: either they're useful as warfare tools and massively used, contrary to what you're claiming, or they're useless as warfare tools and not used, again contrary to what you're claiming. Your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-02-12 17:57:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So: either they're useful as warfare tools and massively used, contrary to what you're claiming, or they're useless as warfare tools and not used, again contrary to what you're claiming. Your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical.


Lead bullets are effective and unused, because people agreed to not use them.

Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#63 - 2014-02-12 18:02:10 UTC
you cant reinforce an IHUB or lock someone out of a station with siphon units.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2014-02-12 18:02:34 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So: either they're useful as warfare tools and massively used, contrary to what you're claiming, or they're useless as warfare tools and not used, again contrary to what you're claiming. Your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical.


Lead bullets are effective and unused, because people agreed to not use them.

Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.


Ha ha, no, that's not why lead bullets are going away.

They're going away because of pressure to keep ammunition out of the hands of civilians(because if they failed with the administration's gun control act, they are going after ammo unofficially instead), with a sub consequence of making hand loading much harder now too, since the available avenues of copper are much, much less than that of lead.

Source: Avid shooter, owns more guns than I have fingers and toes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-02-12 18:02:57 UTC
Just like the ESS, Siphons are just not worth the effort.

Yes you might relieve some big blob that has more isk than it knows what to do with, of a few millions or tens of millions isk, you've probabaly wasted hours of your own time in the process. Who's really lost the most?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2014-02-12 18:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.

…which everyone involved would ignore if they were actually useful — thinking anything else is still laughably naïve, even more so in a game where such restrictions are trivial tracelessly to work around. And it still doesn't account for everyone else who have a strong incentive in hurting the moon holders.

So your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical no matter how many blinders you choose to wear. They're not being used because they just don't hurt anyone in any meaningful way. They're also not being used because their main purpose — ninja:ing resources — isn't worth the effort.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-02-12 18:15:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.

…which everyone involved would ignore if they were actually useful — thinking anything else is still laughably naïve, even more so in a game where such restrictions are trivial tracelessly to work around. And it still doesn't account for everyone else who have a strong incentive in hurting the moon holders.


By this twisted and backward logic, renters would not be able to exist because everybody would just gank them and steal everything they own with their alts.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2014-02-12 18:20:56 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
By this twisted and backward logic, renters would not be able to exist because everybody would just gank them and steal everything they own with their alts.

“This logic” being the one you just invented rather than what I said, because what you're describing means you're taking out your own income. That would be like placing (supposedly effective) siphons on your own moons.

Bypassing the handshake to hurt your enemy ≠ bypassing the handshake to kick yourself in your own wallet.

So yes, it is a twisted and backwards logic and I have no idea where you got it from. I prefer my own underhanded, but entirely straight-forward logic.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2014-02-12 18:23:34 UTC
Emma Muutaras wrote:
with the current state of null sec http://i.imgur.com/yRX4f1D.png (based on blue standings) what chance does a small alliance/corp that wants to be independent of the big boys have in getting a foothold in null?

it looks like you have 3 choices at the moment join cfc/rus join N3 or buy a wizards hat and join provi block.

while i admit my knowledge of everything going on in null is somewhat limited every 1 seams to say the same thing N3 while still got a lot of fight in them is on the back-foot and in full retreat that blue doughnut is getting closer and closer to being complete.

small scale pvp is getting harder and harder to find always seams to be a 30 man fleet getting dropped by a 100 man fleet, and if/when the blue doughnut is complete you may as well say large scale pvp will die as well.

yes its in the nature of sandboxes for people to group together and form massive coalitions but is this really healthy for null sec?



you just have the chance to destroy them all, thats about it.

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#70 - 2014-02-12 18:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Remove re-enforce timers. There were no re-enforce timers in WWI, WWII, Desert Storm or any other conflict you care to mention. You can either defend what you claim 24*7 or you cannot.

If you cannot defend what you claim without re-enforce timers, you shouldn't own it and smaller alliances have better opportunity to take it from you.

I suspect the whole notion of re-enforce timers got in as large nullsec blocs and their advocates dominating the CSM, pushed for this mechanic to extend their reach far beyond what they really can assert through force of actual might.

SOV needs a re-do, and doing away with re-enforce timers is a big part of it. IMHO.

Would you like to know more?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-02-12 18:40:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
By this twisted and backward logic, renters would not be able to exist because everybody would just gank them and steal everything they own with their alts.

“This logic” being the one you just invented rather than what I said, because what you're describing means you're taking out your own income. That would be like placing (supposedly effective) siphons on your own moons.

Bypassing the handshake to hurt your enemy ≠ bypassing the handshake to kick yourself in your own wallet.

So yes, it is a twisted and backwards logic and I have no idea where you got it from. I prefer my own underhanded, but entirely straight-forward logic.


It's the same thing.

Both parties agree to not do a thing because it hurts their wallets.

You're basically dictating a double standard - which logically would not exist. Sorry.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#72 - 2014-02-12 18:46:34 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Remove re-enforce timers. There were no re-enforce timers in WWI, WWII, Desert Storm or any other conflict you care to mention. You can either defend what you claim 24*7 or you cannot.

If you cannot defend what you claim without re-enforce timers, you shouldn't own it and smaller alliances have better opportunity to take it from you.

I suspect the whole notion of re-enforce timers got in as large nullsec blocs and their advocates dominating the CSM, pushed for this mechanic to extend their reach far beyond what they really can assert through force of actual might.

SOV needs a re-do, and doing away with re-enforce timers is a big part of it. IMHO.


That's a case of not remembering why a thing exists in the 1st place. Ref timers are important because they from a break on the power of sizable groups to dominate everything by pure weight of numbers overnight. The provide a framework for conflicts (ie, we know this timer is up at this time, so we will form up for it).

The wars you mentioned weren't games, they were real and people didn't have a choice. In a game where people have a choice it just doesn't work and removing something put in place to correct serious problems of the past is begging for unintended consequences.

Ref timers are like gates (gates suck but without something like gates it would be way to easy to avoid fights given EVE game mechanics), a necessary evil that prevents worse results.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2014-02-12 18:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's the same thing.
No, hurting the enemy is not the same thing as wilfully kicking yourself.

Quote:
You're basically dictating a double standard - which logically would not exist.
Setting aside that there's nothing particularly illogical about double standards, I'm not dictating a double standard to begin with. Being hostile to enemies and non-hostile to allies is about as single-standard as they come.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#74 - 2014-02-12 18:51:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

That's a case of not remembering why a thing exists in the 1st place. Ref timers are important because they from a break on the power of sizable groups to dominate everything by pure weight of numbers overnight. The provide a framework for conflicts (ie, we know this timer is up at this time, so we will form up for it).

The wars you mentioned weren't games, they were real and people didn't have a choice. In a game where people have a choice it just doesn't work and removing something put in place to correct serious problems of the past is begging for unintended consequences.

Ref timers are like gates (gates suck but without something like gates it would be way to easy to avoid fights given EVE game mechanics), a necessary evil that prevents worse results.

Still not buying it. I think a mechanism where all alliances asserting SOV would need to do so 24x7 on their 'core' systems, before expanding outward to claim outlying systems. Today you have large blocs that assert wider dominance because re-enforce timers allow them to reposition forces beyond what they could 'really' have in reserve to defend 'home' systems, ostensibly from smaller alliances who would black ops in behind their lines and zap key assets.

Its a shame really, the whole notion of ongoing defense and proper expansion is messed up by re-enforce timers, and smaller alliances cannot really 'slip behind enemy lines' to wreak havoc, etc.

Would you like to know more?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#75 - 2014-02-12 18:51:43 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Remove re-enforce timers. There were no re-enforce timers in WWI, WWII, Desert Storm or any other conflict you care to mention. You can either defend what you claim 24*7 or you cannot.

If you cannot defend what you claim without re-enforce timers, you shouldn't own it and smaller alliances have better opportunity to take it from you.

I suspect the whole notion of re-enforce timers got in as large nullsec blocs and their advocates dominating the CSM, pushed for this mechanic to extend their reach far beyond what they really can assert through force of actual might.

SOV needs a re-do, and doing away with re-enforce timers is a big part of it. IMHO.


You know I have big props for you and what you do, but you're wrong about this one.

Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of a ****** sov grind, timers are the friend of not the defender or the aggressor, but of the little guy.

Always.

It gives you time to summon your guys so that you can muster up a proper fight. When otherwise it just comes down to numbers and timezones. And that's not a fun fight, I can tell you. That crap made me quit eve for a couple of years, it was genuinely that bad.

It would just be a WoW battleground writ large. And nullsec deserves more than to just be a PvP arena. There has to be incentive to build and grow, not just to conquer and burn.

Please note, I am not denying that there is an issue right now. There is, there really freaking is. But it's not something a "just take away XYZ" style solution can solve.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#76 - 2014-02-12 18:55:34 UTC
So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#77 - 2014-02-12 18:56:52 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....


Both, and neither.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#78 - 2014-02-12 19:00:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....


Both, and neither.


Exactly right. I think sometimes people want to see things in simple terms, but EVE is an infinitely complex thing made more complex by the introduction of the most chaotic thing in existence (people lol). That's why "just do this and you'll get that" never ever works of makes any sense, in EVE or in real life.

It's also why the Features and ideas forum is hilarious.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#79 - 2014-02-12 19:03:12 UTC
TL;DR what I did see I will comment on

I personally use siphon units, and I have a blast stealing form the large boys. WH opens to null, i'll pop out, find a pos, deploy siphon and take goodies. most of the time though the amount of goo I get doesn't pay for the siphon, but meh, its still fun and I get a kick out of it.

Now, a little guy can EASILY gain a system. Its not the difficult, you find one no one has claimed, slip into null with a pos and fuel, and a tcu, deploy both, then bring in yoru buddies and start working. You are now in null.. yay!

The real question you need to ask... how long can a little guy hold a system, without paying rent or becoming a member of the power block, and that answer is it depends. If you get lucky and snag a system when the big boy next door is off fighting elsewhere, you might be ignored for a few weeks or months. On the other hand, there home defence fleet, if they habe one, might just decide to whipe you off the map as a way to be unbored. But if you are lucky, youmight even be able to help the guy next door and might get to keep your system as I said it depends

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2014-02-12 19:12:33 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

That's a case of not remembering why a thing exists in the 1st place. Ref timers are important because they from a break on the power of sizable groups to dominate everything by pure weight of numbers overnight. The provide a framework for conflicts (ie, we know this timer is up at this time, so we will form up for it).

The wars you mentioned weren't games, they were real and people didn't have a choice. In a game where people have a choice it just doesn't work and removing something put in place to correct serious problems of the past is begging for unintended consequences.

Ref timers are like gates (gates suck but without something like gates it would be way to easy to avoid fights given EVE game mechanics), a necessary evil that prevents worse results.

Still not buying it. I think a mechanism where all alliances asserting SOV would need to do so 24x7 on their 'core' systems, before expanding outward to claim outlying systems. Today you have large blocs that assert wider dominance because re-enforce timers allow them to reposition forces beyond what they could 'really' have in reserve to defend 'home' systems, ostensibly from smaller alliances who would black ops in behind their lines and zap key assets.

Its a shame really, the whole notion of ongoing defense and proper expansion is messed up by re-enforce timers, and smaller alliances cannot really 'slip behind enemy lines' to wreak havoc, etc.


How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?