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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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What to do in a Corporation?

Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#81 - 2014-01-23 16:20:26 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:

Ok, its not safe to join a corp, I get that, and its that way by design, totally understand that too, like it even. But the designers cant have their cake and eat it too. If they have designed risk and danger into the very foundation of the game then they would have to expect that a certain percentage of the player base will weigh up the pros and cons and logically conclude that the cons are simply too extreme to justify the benefits.

Some risks are mandatory, like undocking, but others like joining a corp are entirely voluntary and can be completely avoided if the risk is perceived by the player as outweighing the benefits. CCP have to expect that some players will come to that conclusion based on their design. How large that percentage is I have no idea, but Oraac Ensor seems to suggest that its not insignificant which is entirely understandable.

It has nothing to do with nonsense like being unsociable or not wanting to play a multiplayer game, its simply a value judgement which results in combined risks / hassles appearing to exceed potential benefits. Nothing more.

I actually like the universe of EVE dark and hostile, I like the fact that there are real predators out there that I have to outsmart in order to survive. But the whole idea of joining a large corp just makes me feel like I'm turning my back on those very same predators and letting my guard down instead of facing them with a whip and a chair.

The first rule of EVE is NOT: Trust no one......... except when you join a corp in which case by all means trust an indeterminate bunch of sociopathic individuals and assorted homicidal maniacs with every detail about yourself and then hope they wont shoot you. Its simply: Trust no one. Period. You cant have it both ways......

Of course if the potential benefits did clearly outweigh the risks that would be different and this thread has been very useful to me in pointing out several benefits that I was previously unaware of, but it still doesn't seem enough to outweigh the many negatives. Maybe I'll feel differently when financial survival is no longer my only priority.


At the moment, you aren't required to join a corp. Furthermore, you can make "solo" corps where you are the only member if you so choose. Don't be surprised however, when players advocate for the removal of NPC corps specifically to ensure the dark and dangerous environment continues to exist for all players (even in highsec). Did you know at the games release, there wasn't concord to protect the "innocent".
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#82 - 2014-01-23 16:25:37 UTC
Benefit of being in Corp = People. I enjoyed greately in E-Uni when I was novice. Friendly and helpful people helped me to set roots in EVE.

Benefit of not being in Corp = Time. When you cant play EVE 24/7 or even sometimes away for month or two and prefer solo play.

My suggestion is to try both, see what suits your gameplay. Once I get more time to play this game I am actually considering joining some corp, but at the moment I just dont play EVE that much.
Marcus Avon
New Eden Fedo Lovers Society
#83 - 2014-01-23 16:35:20 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
The opposition in this thread has only pointed out ONE drawback to being in a corp, and AWOXing isn't even all that common in the grand scheme of things.


Well I have a lot more than one drawback but I've been reluctant to post a list since it would have absolutely nothing to do with the OP. But there seems to be a demand for it both from you and J'poll and I guess this thread cant really get any further off topic.... so what the hell.

Ok, these cons are Based on E-Uni requirements for joining. I use E-Uni as an example because I would be in it right now if the following negatives hadn’t turned me off completely. I’m sure many of these apply to other big corps too.

1/ Awoxing potential: Already done to death in this thread, so I'll say no more.

2/ Hassle: Not much individually but together quite annoying.
· waiting in queues: 2 weeks plus....with your eyes glued to a chat room. Not fun. No thanks.
· Endless steps, questionnaires, interviews..... etc applying to joint a real uni would be less hassle. Seriously.
· installation and configuration of unwanted 3rd party chat software.
· Seperate corp login and password. Don’t I already have enough of these to remember?

3/ Surrender of API key. I’m not even slightly comfortable with this. I know the logic behind it, but that doesn’t make it any easier. Giving my personal info to a bunch of complete strangers (I don't even know how many) seems very wrong in a game like EVE.

4/ Corp rules that you have to follow. No-go zones, illegal targets, illegal actions.... etc Limiting your options in general.

5/ Established commitments to fellow corp mates wasting time when you could be doing something more profitable.

6/ Being at the bottom of the command hierarchy and having to obey orders. Pretty much expected but the prospect doesn’t exactly fill me with excitement. Being my own boss sounds much more attractive.

7/ War Targets: They can shoot you in hi sec and Concord wont lift a finger. Makes it hard to conduct ordinary business without dying.

8/ Enemies of the Corp: Old war targets or just bad blood, will go out of their way to ruin your day just because you are in a corp they don’t like. Basically enemies you would never have otherwise had who hate your corp, and they don’t flash red so you don’t know you are a target, giving them plenty of time to plot and plan.

9/ The following are things that I don’t know for sure but I fully expect to be present. They certainly affect my decisions but I might well be wrong on some or even all of them.

· Set times to be on-line? Being forced to commit to always logging on at certain times?
· Menial jobs: that you don’t really want to do but are expected, to prove yourself to the corp (recruiting)?
· Being used for “grunt work PVP” like tackling and pointing where you are expected to die fast while higher ranking corp members get the plum positions?
· Intra-Corp politics and drama: I really hate politics, drama not so much but would prefer not.
· Being strongly encouraged if not forced into a role that the corp currently needs for example mining, logi... that I have no personal interest in?

That's about all I could think of in 5 minutes, there are probably more but these are the major ones. Together they would seem to outweigh any positive benefits of joining a corp. At least for me.
Marcus Avon
New Eden Fedo Lovers Society
#84 - 2014-01-23 16:56:09 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
At the moment, you aren't required to join a corp. Furthermore, you can make "solo" corps where you are the only member if you so choose. Don't be surprised however, when players advocate for the removal of NPC corps specifically to ensure the dark and dangerous environment continues to exist for all players (even in highsec). Did you know at the games release, there wasn't concord to protect the "innocent".


No I didn't know about the lack of Concord. That would have been interesting :)

I don't really have a problem with the way that EVE is currently run. I like the fact that you're never entirely sure of being safe and I think that getting rid of it would be an extremely bad move. Nothing would suck more than undocking and knowing that you are 100% safe.

But I also like the fact that EVE provides many options, many different ways of playing the game that can be tailored to suit the particular needs of the individual player. Choosing to remain free from joining a big corp is exercising one of those options and I hope that the range of player choices always remains as broad and varied.

Forcing everyone down the exact same path would be almost as bad as enforcing 100% safe high sec.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#85 - 2014-01-23 16:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Marcus Avon wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
The opposition in this thread has only pointed out ONE drawback to being in a corp, and AWOXing isn't even all that common in the grand scheme of things.


Well I have a lot more than one drawback but I've been reluctant to post a list since it would have absolutely nothing to do with the OP. But there seems to be a demand for it both from you and J'poll and I guess this thread cant really get any further off topic.... so what the hell.

Ok, these cons are Based on E-Uni requirements for joining. I use E-Uni as an example because I would be in it right now if the following negatives hadn’t turned me off completely. I’m sure many of these apply to other big corps too.

1/ Awoxing potential: Already done to death in this thread, so I'll say no more.

2/ Hassle: Not much individually but together quite annoying.
· waiting in queues: 2 weeks plus....with your eyes glued to a chat room. Not fun. No thanks.
· Endless steps, questionnaires, interviews..... etc applying to joint a real uni would be less hassle. Seriously.
· installation and configuration of unwanted 3rd party chat software.
· Seperate corp login and password. Don’t I already have enough of these to remember?

3/ Surrender of API key. I’m not even slightly comfortable with this. I know the logic behind it, but that doesn’t make it any easier. Giving my personal info to a bunch of complete strangers (I don't even know how many) seems very wrong in a game like EVE.

4/ Corp rules that you have to follow. No-go zones, illegal targets, illegal actions.... etc Limiting your options in general.

5/ Established commitments to fellow corp mates wasting time when you could be doing something more profitable.

6/ Being at the bottom of the command hierarchy and having to obey orders. Pretty much expected but the prospect doesn’t exactly fill me with excitement. Being my own boss sounds much more attractive.

7/ War Targets: They can shoot you in hi sec and Concord wont lift a finger. Makes it hard to conduct ordinary business without dying.

8/ Enemies of the Corp: Old war targets or just bad blood, will go out of their way to ruin your day just because you are in a corp they don’t like. Basically enemies you would never have otherwise had who hate your corp, and they don’t flash red so you don’t know you are a target, giving them plenty of time to plot and plan.

9/ The following are things that I don’t know for sure but I fully expect to be present. They certainly affect my decisions but I might well be wrong on some or even all of them.

· Set times to be on-line? Being forced to commit to always logging on at certain times?
· Menial jobs: that you don’t really want to do but are expected, to prove yourself to the corp (recruiting)?
· Being used for “grunt work PVP” like tackling and pointing where you are expected to die fast while higher ranking corp members get the plum positions?
· Intra-Corp politics and drama: I really hate politics, drama not so much but would prefer not.
· Being strongly encouraged if not forced into a role that the corp currently needs for example mining, logi... that I have no personal interest in?

That's about all I could think of in 5 minutes, there are probably more but these are the major ones. Together they would seem to outweigh any positive benefits of joining a corp. At least for me.


Some of those are valid issues you might have to deal with when joining a corp. They certainly don't all apply to EvE Uni, nor most corps for that matter, but I can understand why many of those would dissuade you. When you join a "larger corp", they will certainly have setup an organizational structure with new members coming in at the bottom. When joining an older corp, you inherit their history and reputation, with the pros and cons that brings. And when you are learning the game, you may be asked to try out a new role so you can understand and learn what it involves.

A.) Most corps don't have mandatory CTA's.
B.) Most corps use API's to limit their vulnerability to AWOXers, thieves, and spies (which is something you also fear).
C.) There is a hassle in finding a corp right for you, and there is a hassle in the corp determining if you are right for them. This is human nature, as certainly you've realized by now that with some groups of people you work well with, and others you don't.
D.) Are you really complaining that corps have rules and an organizational structure?

To be quite frank, it sounds like you've heard all these horror stories about bad corps, and fear it may happen to you. You can always leave a corp if you don't like it. It's like trying a new dish at the Chinese Buffet. If it doesn't agree with you, leave it be and go find something that does.

Perhaps your enjoyment of this game has nothing to do with playing well with others. You want to do solo industry, solo missioning, etc. You want to forge your own path, living in your own bubble. That's is completely acceptable and reasonable and your choice to do it. Just realize that as an individual, you will be limited in the activities you may pursue, you will generally be less efficient than an organized group, and you will be vulnerable to gangs of others.

It's like living as a hermit in the woods, living as a member of a small tribe, living in a town, or living in a big city/nation. As the solo hermit, you have more freedoms but less protections. You lose out on many luxuries that groups of people enjoy, but also don't have the inconveniences groups create. Choose your path, and may you find enjoyment in your choice.
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#86 - 2014-01-23 17:11:48 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:
Well I have a lot more than one drawback but I've been reluctant to post a list since it would have absolutely nothing to do with the OP. But there seems to be a demand for it both from you and J'poll and I guess this thread cant really get any further off topic.... so what the hell.


I don't really find it off topic at all. The OP asked why to join a corp. Why not to join a corp seems like a logical extension. Plus all the points brought up in this thread are valid things for new players to think about when looking for a corp and it shows the wide range of opinion players have on the topic.

To me, most of your points can be simplified to the hassle of having to deal with other players. Commitments, command structure, politics. Maybe it's just not worth it to you, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly possible to be successful as a solo player.

I would caution you, though, against using EVE Uni as an example on that front. It's possibly one of the most involved application processes in EVE and most corps won't put you through so much work just to join. Many will only require a limited API, or even none at all, since it really doesn't tell you much that you can't find on public killboards anyway.

As far as corporate commitments...yes they exist. In some corps you will be consumed by them (null sec structure timers) but other corps will require nothing of you at all. Even participating in group activites can be a real concern if you have limited play time and can't afford to wait 30 minutes for your corp-mate to fit a ship and fly over to run sites with you. However, being part of a group affords opportunities you can't get by yourself; for example 8 corp-mates in battleships can roll a wormhole in 2 minutes - Something that would take me an hour to do by myself.

One last thing that caught my attention (number 8 on your list). Perhaps this is unique to wormhole space, but I find that conflict with other corps more often leads to making friends than enemies. I can't count the number of people I've shot and and then befriended, win or lose. Most people just want a good fight, and if you give it to them they aren't going to hold it against you.

IN SUMMARY:

Joining a corp may not be for you and that is fine. I write these posts, not to demand that you join a corp immediately, but to point out some benefits that you may not have considered. I get frustrated when I see people in NPC chat advise new players not to join a player corp, because there is so much content that you just can't get when you play truly solo. I really think it's something everyone should try at some point in their EVE career, whether is now or in the distant future. Maybe it's not for you, but it's hard to know for sure until you try it. And the longer you wait, the more you have to lose if things do go poorly.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Oraac Ensor
#87 - 2014-01-23 19:49:51 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Snifnix Padecain wrote:
I don't know that the CEO deserve this kind of nonsensical stuff to be stacked against him when he is in fact trying to establish something that would probably enhance and distill the game experience for a lot of people. And I don't think implementing say a 'push this button for consensual practice PvP' or whatever in high sec, would make EvE a game for carebears.

3. The button for consentual PvP DOES change EVE majorly. By saying it doesnt shows how little knowledge you have (yet) about the game. What make EVE to be different then any of the WoW family MMOs, because its a harsh and different setting. That button will turn it into carebear heaven as those people will become untouchable.
Untouchable? How? As you said: "In corp or not...anybody can shoot you, anywhere. Even in law enforced space", and this would make no difference to that fact. There is already such a button for duelling with any individual player in all of EVE, so there is no way that a similar button for consensual combat with corpmates would "change EVE majorly".

J'Poll wrote:
And corp member hostility if you ever come across it when you enter a corp...you should have done your research before joining as that is easily found out.
Please tell us how.
Oraac Ensor
#88 - 2014-01-23 19:52:01 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Imagine you're practicing a squad tactic, something that requires multiple pilots. 4 pilots on each team who would have to separately duel every member of the opposite team, which would be annoying enough. Even worse imagine you set up all the duels right and begin the fight, every member of your team must shoot every member of the opposing team at least once every few minutes just to keep all the duel timers running or risk concord when they accidentally switch to a target whos engagement timer had run out a second earlier. Can everyone see why corps have to be able to freely engage each other?
Yes, hence Snifnix Padecain 's idea for a button consenting to it.

Keno Skir wrote:
The opposition in this thread has only pointed out ONE drawback to being in a corp, and AWOXing isn't even all that common in the grand scheme of things. Add that to the fact that a new players posessions are of little or no value to an older player and you might start to realise AWOXing has been made out to be more likely than it actually is.

In 3 years i have only had 1 corp member attempt to kill me, and he failed. It'll most likely happen again over the next 3 years, but 1 pilot out of hundreds that had the chance to do the same is a VERY SMALL NUMBER.
So, of course, that means that everyone else's experience will be the same.

In 3 years I can't believe that you've never heard of cases where a player (usually new and inexperienced) has joined a corp and been invited by the corp's leadership to move their stuff to the corp HQ station only to find that as soon as they enter the corp's home system their ship (containing all their stuff) is blown up and looted by their new so-clled "friends". Said asshats then laugh all the way home while congratulating themselves for being such wonderful PvPers.

As for there being only one drawback I would say the opposite is true - there is actually only one advantage that would apply more or less across the board for all players, and even that is very subjective: the ability to call in friends when in trouble. Everything else is only an advantage if the individual finds it useful - if he finds none of it useful then the disadvantages kick in at full power, as they would also do if the useful elements don't outweigh them.
Oraac Ensor
#89 - 2014-01-23 20:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
J'Poll wrote:
Snifnix Padecain wrote:
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.

So, you are someone who only cares about non consentual, boring PvE grinding stuff, and you measure your success in the value of your overpriced ship with even more overpriced modules.
>>>
Guess what, it ain't going to happen. EVE is a PvP game, thus, PvP is everywhere.
Now before you start whining again that EVE ain't a PvP game, take a look at this. Specially Chapter 5, subsection 5.3 on page 13. 2nd sentence says:
Quote:
This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.
Come off it, mate, where has he said that EVE isn't a PvP game?

But thanks for that link, I've never seen it before. Where do we find that stuff? I couldn't backtrack from the url.

J'Poll wrote:
Again saying that there are extreme cons about joining a corp, but in 4 pages of whining by Solo players I haven't seen a single one of them.
The only whiners here are a few of the pro-corp posters who can't tolerate the idea that others see the game differently and enjoy a different play style. Everyone else is just posting ideas, info and opinions.

You want cons? OK:

Submit my full API to a total stranger about whom I know nothing other than one of his EVE character names? No way - merely asking for it is a damned impertinence. If they want to know about me they can find out by whatever mysterious method you've said I should use to find out about them.

Voice comms. I don't have it, I don't want it, and I'm not going to acquire it just to join a corp.

Give a bunch of strangers permission to kill me with impunity any time they feel like it? You have to be kidding.

Wardecs. No - just no.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#90 - 2014-01-23 20:07:45 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
There is already such a button for duelling with any individual player in all of EVE, so there is no way that a similar button for consensual combat with corpmates would "change EVE majorly".


But it would "change EvE Majorly":
--- When joining a corp you give permission for every corp mate to attack you, without permission, without concord protection. This puts you at RISK for an attack. Because of this, you MUST extend a certain level of trust to your corp mates. Remove this aspect of player corporations, and you no longer need to trust your corp mates. They won't be able to harm you any differently than any other player. How can you possibly think removing that fundamental level of trust won't change the game, especially since having trust in other players is purposely hindered by dev-sanctioned scamming, awoxing, suicide ganking, and other insidious behavior?

Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
And corp member hostility if you ever come across it when you enter a corp...you should have done your research before joining as that is easily found out.
Please tell us how.


There are many ways you can research a corp:
--- Look at past killboard history.
--- Look at forums, where people identify unscrupulous players.
--- Look at a corps member history, and contact previous members about the corp.
--- Look at player corp history, and contact previous corps they've belonged to, to get an opinion.

Tools exist in this game to help you make informed decisions. They aren't 100% guaranteed to prevent something aweful (like the CFC) from happening to you, but when you are informed and actually making intelligent decisions, you can avoid most of the **** out there, and you can be prepared for when the **** hits the fan.
Oraac Ensor
#91 - 2014-01-23 20:10:33 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Marcus Avon wrote:
How large that percentage is I have no idea, but Oraac Ensor seems to suggest that its not insignificant which is entirely understandable.

Using 4 year old statistics.

Ooh and heads up, it's a questionaire, how many players do you think actually take the time to do that.
After doing a good bit of market research for my uni for projects, I can assure you, it ain't over 50% of their customers most likely that fill in the questions.
I said nothing about 4-year-old statistics. Four years ago I didn't know EVE existed.

A reliable survey sample doesn't need anywhere near a 50% response. A sample of 1,000 is generally regarded as adequate for a population of 1,000,000.

J'Poll wrote:
Marcus Avon wrote:

I actually like the universe of EVE dark and hostile, I like the fact that there are real predators out there that I have to outsmart in order to survive. But the whole idea of joining a large corp just makes me feel like I'm turning my back on those very same predators and letting my guard down instead of facing them with a whip and a chair.


So, by hiding you "outsmart" them, okay, what ever floats your boat.
I see no mention of hiding.
Oraac Ensor
#92 - 2014-01-23 20:14:03 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
And who says you MUST givbe all details about you. YOU give tehm the details you want.
None of my former corps knew about the names of my alts, what I did with them, what ships I had, where they were parked etc. etc.
I gave the information needed to the person who needed it, when I thought it was good enough to trust them with them.
How so? This is from the first former corp in your profile:
Quote:
All apps must contain a full account API key;


J'Poll wrote:
Awoxers - yes, they is a marginally chance your corp will attract one. If you join a corp full of awoxers, it's your own damn fault, as such corps are named and shamed on the internet and you should see the warnings well before that.
I'd like to know where.

J'Poll wrote:
Wardec - yes, but then again, if you end up with wardecs, you attracted them as a corp yourself. My alt holding corp is now active for nearly 3 years (started in Feb 2011), it NEVER had a wardec. And I've been missioning, mining, hauling and supplying war equipments with the alts for that time.

If you find yourself under a war, ask yourself, what did the corp do to attract the attention of a wardeccer.
"It hasn't happened to me, therefore it doesn't happen to anyone" is not a sustainable argument.

And again, come off it, J'Poll. You know very well that the significant bully population of EVE contains corps who issue wardecs just because they can, usually against small, weak and/or inexperienced corps. Or are you saying that being small, weak or inexperienced is somehow deserving of a wardec?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#93 - 2014-01-23 20:14:25 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:

Keno Skir wrote:
The opposition in this thread has only pointed out ONE drawback to being in a corp, and AWOXing isn't even all that common in the grand scheme of things. Add that to the fact that a new players posessions are of little or no value to an older player and you might start to realise AWOXing has been made out to be more likely than it actually is.

In 3 years i have only had 1 corp member attempt to kill me, and he failed. It'll most likely happen again over the next 3 years, but 1 pilot out of hundreds that had the chance to do the same is a VERY SMALL NUMBER.
So, of course, that means that everyone else's experience will be the same.

In 3 years I can't believe that you've never heard of cases where a player (usually new and inexperienced) has joined a corp and been invited by the corp's leadership to move their stuff to the corp HQ station only to find that as soon as they enter the corp's home system their ship (containing all their stuff) is blown up and looted by their new so-clled "friends". Said asshats then laugh all the way home while congratulating themselves for being such wonderful PvPers.

As for there being only one drawback I would say the opposite is true - there is actually only one advantage that would apply more or less across the board for all players, and even that is very subjective: the ability to call in friends when in trouble. Everything else is only an advantage if the individual finds it useful - if he finds none of it useful then the disadvantages kick in at full power, as they would also do if the useful elements don't outweigh them.


A few points: A new and inexperienced player doesn't have all that much stuff to blow up in the first place. The scams / AWOXing you refer to generally happen when an older Carebear with billions in assets attempts to join Goons or Test or whomever else. It also generally happens in nullsec or lowsec where there is no Concord anyway! Finally, go to the C&P forum, where people are called out for AWOXing, Thieving, recruitment scamming, etc.. Compared to the number of players in game, it is a very small number of reported cases. And the reason people hear about it, is because they can't believe that players continue to fall for the same well-publicized scams which could easily be avoided by 20 minutes of forum reading!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#94 - 2014-01-23 20:56:44 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Awoxers - yes, they is a marginally chance your corp will attract one. If you join a corp full of awoxers, it's your own damn fault, as such corps are named and shamed on the internet and you should see the warnings well before that.


I'd like to know where.


EvE Who tells you about a corps history, their current members and historical members.
EvE kill and zkillboard and battleclinic show public killboard information on pilots, corps, and alliances.
The Crime & Punishment section of this forum is full of posts where people identify corp thieves, awoxers, and scammers.
You can also send eve mails to a corps "old members" or to older corp mates of pilots.

In the end, the tools exist for you to identify many of the unscrupulous members of this game. It won't identify everyone, but it will save you from all but the most dedicated criminals. And lets be frank, why would someone dedicate any real effort to attack you, when there are plenty of lazy and ignorant players out there that simply buy the used car without even looking under the hood!

Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Wardec - yes, but then again, if you end up with wardecs, you attracted them as a corp yourself. My alt holding corp is now active for nearly 3 years (started in Feb 2011), it NEVER had a wardec. And I've been missioning, mining, hauling and supplying war equipments with the alts for that time.

If you find yourself under a war, ask yourself, what did the corp do to attract the attention of a wardeccer.
"It hasn't happened to me, therefore it doesn't happen to anyone" is not a sustainable argument.

And again, come off it, J'Poll. You know very well that the significant bully population of EVE contains corps who issue wardecs just because they can, usually against small, weak and/or inexperienced corps. Or are you saying that being small, weak or inexperienced is somehow deserving of a wardec?


J'Poll is saying nothing about being deserving of wardecs. Wardecs are a part of being in a corp. They are a reality you have to face. At the same time, they are usually very simple to deal with:

I've had two notable wardecs on my alt corps. The first one was right after I received this EvE Mail:
Quote:
I have seen a potential in harvesting some isk by declaring war with your corporation. im aware of that this probably will make things abit more complicated than you thought your future would have looked.

We know you guys make isk in your way, and probably good at that.
We make isk the way we're good at. Either blowing up a few ships, Or ofcourse getting a fair ransom.

We can agree that solving this matter quick is good for both. But this is what we do to make isk. And you dont have to move your stuff to another system.

Either pay this corp 100 mil( debatable depending on your reason) and i`ll leave your matter behind and move to next corp in line.
Or dont but then we'll make the War-dec within 24-78 hours.

Fly safe,

- Tenskawatawa


I ignored it, they declared war, I avoided them, they gave up a week later. It is trivial to avoid them, but you need to use a little common sense. If someone does that to you, go learn to explore WH's, go attempt lowsec or nullsec exploration for a week. Drop corp and continue Missioning, or whatever.

The second time I was wardeced (of note), I realized they were going to do simply by looking at their killboard. Their kills had tons of highsec tower killmails, and I realized they were going to attack my research POS (because it was undefended with 8+ labs on it). Before the wardec even when live, I'd dickstared the POS with hardeners, ECM, and a few weapons to boot. It was no longer worth their time, and they let the war go after a week.

My point is this, each of these had a very specific motive behind the wardec. One thought they could extort isk from a missioner, one thought they could blap an S&I Pos for loot. Wardecs dont' just randomly happen, just like people don't just randomly kill each other on the street. They choose their wardec for targets, for personal gain, for entertainment, for vengeance, and you have so many options in dealing with them, in denying their goals, that it is silly to fret over. At the same time, this is also a game of domination, and sometimes you can't prevent them from taking your moon or hindering your playstyle, but complaining about that is akin to whining that your opponent conquered your favorite country in the game of Risk.
J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-01-23 21:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
To show you how a corp can be, from the point of a fellow new player:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=315016&find=unread

EDIT:

Don't just look at that thread from the OP.
Look at all his threads. He joined RvB and made multiple thread about how much fun he is having in RvB (which is well known to have spies, wardecs, rules, etc) and just asking questions to enhance his gameplay.

Although still January, he has a high chance to become my 'Newb of the Year 2014".

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-01-23 22:08:17 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:
Long post about points made to not join a corp.


Okay, first of all. So this is based on your experience with EVE-Uni, so again generalization that because EVE-Uni is like this, every other corp must be like this.

Don't get me wrong, I have a 2 way opinion on EVE-Uni myself. What they do in EVE is terrific for the game/community and I really like how they do it. On the other hand, regarding all their forms, questionaires, rules etc. I think they are WELL over the top and just a big set back on many occasions and will agree with you that some/most of them are just "stupid".


As for your points in my general opinion:

1. Won't go on about awoxing. That has been settled in the last 4 pages.

2. As said, EVE-Uni is an exception here, most corps don't take most then couple of days to join. And likely other then a chat with a recruiter and maybe a 3 min questionaire (usually just to verify / get to know you a bit) there isn't much hassle in joining a corp.

3. It's to prevent their members from point 1 and other bad things (spies, thiefs). It's a read only, and LOTS of corps don't need an API or just a very limited one (usually skills, mail, contacts).

4. That's why you should search for a corp that fits your game style. If you find that corp, rules make sense and won't interfere with you as the rules are build upon your game style. Also, you are asking to be part of a group of people and don't have rules. May I ask you to give 1 RL example where you join some sort of club / organisation that doesn't have rules?

5. Nobody forces you to play with your corp when ever you are online. It just opens up the opportunity to do it when you want.

6. True, but you can advance. And with a good corp, that isn't really a problem, as a properly ran corporation doesn't order his members around. They guide their members.

7. That depends on what you do, where you do it and how you do it. I've mined and missioned with corp members while under a wardec. We just took precautions (teaming up, mission running in PvP ships, mining in back alley systems with scouts out).

8. Well, true, this is very hard to counter. Only option, know who you join, some corps have a better rep then others. But I have to agree on this point with you.

9.

9.1 There are corps that ask for set game times, ask for minimum amount of hours played a week/month, ask you to join CTAs. But there are even so many corps that don't have that ****, the fun part about EVE corps, there is one for everybody, the finding it is the hard part.

The first mentioned, usually is situated in locations where activity is needed for the continuation of the corp, likely SOV null-sec.

The latter one, most high-sec corps don't give a **** if you don't play daily for 10 hours. Or if you ahve to take a break from the game. One of my corps only kicked people who were away from the game for more then 2 months and didn't give a heads up (either through a small EVEmail or a simple post on their forums - didn't have to be more then: I'm taking a break from EVE, I expect to be back around "insert date/month").

9.2 Again, a corp that suits your gameplay, doesn't do things you don't want to do. And most "jobs" for the corp like recruitment are awarded only if you want to / apply for it.

9.3 You do know that "hero tackle" is one of the most prestige positions. You do know that those older members will be very happy and cheer at you if you keep an enemy on field long enough for them to kill you. YOu do know that it isn't uncommon that said hero tacklers are showered in gifts (money, more hero tackle / PvP ships) by those who you helped make the kill possible. And if dying is such a problem for you, you really need to learn to lose the attachment to your tools.

9.4 Any corp will have drama and politics (also the reason why I'm currently in my solo corp while doing public fleeting stuff - taking a break from whole asshattery drama after a bad experience last summer). You can minimize it and usually can negate it by not mixing into it, but can never totally exclude it. The only persons who are forced with the drama / politics are teh CEO, his/her directors and diplomats.

9.5 Again, good corp will never force you into something you don't want. Some corps do suggest or entice people in certain roles through means possible (like: we need logi, let's hand out logi ships for free / fully reimburse them on loss. This doesn't force anybody into logi ships, but it does make it attractive to do it).



What do I suggest, read NC85's guide on how to join a corp. It has clear things on what to watch for and how to find the bad things about corps and spot bad corps. Even if you don't (want to) join a corp, it shows that not all corps are bad if you know what to watch for.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-01-23 22:11:26 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
[
J'Poll wrote:
And corp member hostility if you ever come across it when you enter a corp...you should have done your research before joining as that is easily found out.
Please tell us how.


Simple:

Look up the corp on EVEwho. Look who left corp, how long they were in corp. If lots of people do short stays of couple of days, alarm bells should be ringing.

Ask former members. Evemail them, ask them how the corp is and why they left. Pick random people so you can get a proper view on why people leave the corp.

Look up the corp on any killboard. Likely they have an API to the killboard, thus showing AWOXing on it.

Simple search on the fourms. If they do a lot of awoxing, there will be a complaining / warning thread on said corp on the forums (for fun: search for Goons and be amazed how many threads there are on the Goon Recruiter Scam).

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-01-23 22:15:33 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Snifnix Padecain wrote:
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.

So, you are someone who only cares about non consentual, boring PvE grinding stuff, and you measure your success in the value of your overpriced ship with even more overpriced modules.
>>>
Guess what, it ain't going to happen. EVE is a PvP game, thus, PvP is everywhere.
Now before you start whining again that EVE ain't a PvP game, take a look at this. Specially Chapter 5, subsection 5.3 on page 13. 2nd sentence says:
Quote:
This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.
Come off it, mate, where has he said that EVE isn't a PvP game?

But thanks for that link, I've never seen it before. Where do we find that stuff? I couldn't backtrack from the url.

J'Poll wrote:
Again saying that there are extreme cons about joining a corp, but in 4 pages of whining by Solo players I haven't seen a single one of them.
The only whiners here are a few of the pro-corp posters who can't tolerate the idea that others see the game differently and enjoy a different play style. Everyone else is just posting ideas, info and opinions.

You want cons? OK:

Submit my full API to a total stranger about whom I know nothing other than one of his EVE character names? No way - merely asking for it is a damned impertinence. If they want to know about me they can find out by whatever mysterious method you've said I should use to find out about them.

Voice comms. I don't have it, I don't want it, and I'm not going to acquire it just to join a corp.

Give a bunch of strangers permission to kill me with impunity any time they feel like it? You have to be kidding.

Wardecs. No - just no.



Pt1:

URL comes from the New Citizen FAQ thread on the forums made by Salpun, it's sticky now by CCP Eterne and thus on the front page.

Pt2:

You do know not every corp in EVE uses comms. Or a lot that have a very relaxed comms policy. So far in my time, only the corps that I was part of while they were in null had a more strict comms policy (if you are online AND in nullsec, you should be on comms. If you are just doing **** in high-sec etc, don't worry too much).


Bunch of strangers can kill you at anytime anyway. And most of the time, gankers don't gank at random, they gank because you are a valid target (read: most likely a profitable lootdrop is the case). True there are random gankers.


Wardec, okay, that's a valid thing. Then again, just because you are in corp "x" doesn't mean you are instantly wardecced.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-01-23 22:16:51 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Marcus Avon wrote:
How large that percentage is I have no idea, but Oraac Ensor seems to suggest that its not insignificant which is entirely understandable.

Using 4 year old statistics.

Ooh and heads up, it's a questionaire, how many players do you think actually take the time to do that.
After doing a good bit of market research for my uni for projects, I can assure you, it ain't over 50% of their customers most likely that fill in the questions.
I said nothing about 4-year-old statistics. Four years ago I didn't know EVE existed.

A reliable survey sample doesn't need anywhere near a 50% response. A sample of 1,000 is generally regarded as adequate for a population of 1,000,000.


So, 1.000 out of 1.000.000 = 0.1%

Yes, 0.1% is a very good sample. Shocked

I suggest you take some lessons in statistics, as that is BY FAR a good enough sample to base facts on.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-01-23 22:23:03 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
And who says you MUST give all details about you. YOU give tehm the details you want.
None of my former corps knew about the names of my alts, what I did with them, what ships I had, where they were parked etc. etc.
I gave the information needed to the person who needed it, when I thought it was good enough to trust them with them.
How so? This is from the first former corp in your profile:
Quote:
All apps must contain a full account API key;





Now, look up other corps in my list

*my first corp* - Old API system, was the partial one.

PGW, not active anymore, but used partial API.
PHOIBE, still there, using a partial API
TFIFA, null-sec corp, so desired a nearly full API (skills, mails, contacts, contracts, wallet transactions - to check for spy activity).
AEGIS, partial API
2BG, full API because of null-sec and coalition policy
GNZ4H + Drachma - my own corps, NO API at all, as it was just high-sec small activity without active recruiting.
VW, don't know, was just a transfer while in null to stay blue to the people.

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