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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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What to do in a Corporation?

Author
J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-01-23 02:47:21 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:

It may be my inexperience talking here but it seems that the majority of people who are advocating joining a corp are veterans of many years who can easily afford to absorb any losses they might incur as a result of the many additional things that can go wrong as a corp member.

Perhaps when I'm several years into the game, the risks will also appear minimal to me. At the moment, they look anything but.


OR...maybe...because they joined a corp, got part of a group of people they now call friends and helped them out.

Maybe because they played a MMO in multiplayer part and got the benefits from taking a little bit of risk (in my 3 years in EVE, I've seen 10 corps and NEVER had anything bad happen to me. Awoxers never got recruited because all corps knew what they were doing in terms of recruitment. Wardecs happened, but each and every corp had their protocols to deal with them).

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Oraac Ensor
#62 - 2014-01-23 03:30:05 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
So...easy solution, ALWAYS expect to be shot at, in or out of corp. What does it matter if an awoxer kills you or a suicide ganker. In both situations, you lost your ship.

The difference is the degree of risk. If you're not in a corp the awox threat doesn't exist and therefore you are at less risk of being killed.

J'Poll wrote:
Personally, the reasons listed (but you can be wardecced / shot at by fellow members) are just justifications by people that want EVE to be a single player game.

The whole point of EVE is multiplayer - it could never be a single player game. Practically everything you do in EVE is an interaction of some sort with another player or other players. Joining a player corporation is just one of many possibilities of a multiplayer game and, as with every other aspect of this sandbox, every player has the choice as to whether or not to do it.
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#63 - 2014-01-23 04:41:13 UTC
I have never been shot at by a corpmate. I think your making a huge deal out of the AWOX threat while it's actually pretty negligible (assuming of course your CEO does decent background checks.)

EVE is a place where you can expect to be shot at any time, my corpmates however are the only people I would implicitly trust NOT to do that (unless I ask them to.)

The three corps I have been in so far have in fact only provided pros, and no cons.

1) generally lower or equal tax as the NPC corp.
2) intel channels (telling me where there are gate camps, pirates, etc...)
3) fleets (many things in EVE can only be done in a group, or are much safer when grouped)
4) a corp will often have some members highly knowledgable about the game, who can help you with fittings, tactics, etc...
5) POS access, corp haulers, low tax on POCOs
6) safety, if everyone in system is blue i can take out my more expensive ships without worrying about attacks.
Snifnix Padecain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-01-23 05:26:20 UTC
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#65 - 2014-01-23 07:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
The principle advantage to joining a high security space and/or "carebear" corporation is the pooling of personal talents and resources so that no one person has to try to become a master of everything.

The most classic example is your basic Orca mining fleet. Unless one is running multiple accounts, there is little reason to own an Orca unless has several friends in the same timezone that one does not mind helping out. And it is a selfless act to do so, because the Orca pilot themselves is not likely to make much, if any, direct financial profit from doing so.

However in a player corporation the Orca is now an invaluable asset. It moves goods, it assists in mining, and it forms a center around which a good fleet can be built - even if simply doing mission running or exploration, as it's corporate hangers turn it into a small mobile base of operations that can travel alongside the rest of the fleet.

In other words, the Orca is valuable to everyone else far more than it is to it's own pilot. Freighters share a similar doctrine: A freighter for a solo operating pilot is a luxury, as unless they are full time professional haulers by trade, they probably will not have many times when they truly need to use it. Yet inside the structure of a corporation a freighter pilot is always a welcome asset, and the freighter will see much more use.

Now as a pilot one could go out and learn how to fly and Orca, and a Freighter, and every other type of support ship in all of New Eden. Or... they can join a company that already has such assets and allow themselves to focus their own training into more specialized fields. This, too, helps everyone in the group as well.

Ultimately, despite their profit oriented goals, the real purpose of EvE player corporation is talent collectivism - those whom have helping those whom need. It is this communal sharing of resources, be that ISK, ships, skills, knowledge or even just good company that creates a dynamic of interlocking needs amongst it's members, and it is fulfilling these needs that gives the player behind the keyboard a sense of satisfaction.

At least that is how I see it...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#66 - 2014-01-23 08:51:01 UTC

Pot, kettle, and black come to mind reading your post.

Snifnix Padecain wrote:
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.


Get over it already. This game has allowed for corp on corp violence for the last 10 years. If you can't handle that aspect of corp life, you don't have to join a corp. QQ about it all you want, but the truth is the dev's purposely leave this a dangerous universe. They want you to put some trust in others, despite the fact they CAN betray you. This universe is a dystopia, where you are allowed to scam and awox and suicide gank. Your suggestion is aimed at removing this ability to AWOX, because you are afraid to trust others that can betray you. Understand that this is not a utopia, that players don't have to play nice, and learning to trust in this environment is difficult. Removing AWOXing would make life easier in many aspects for new players and risk-adverse players. They could remove wardecs, and suicide ganks, and other forms of non-consensual PvP to make it yet more easier too. However, this is not the direction CCP wants to go, this is not the direction most of the playerbase wants to go, and I'm sorry if you can't handle it. It isn't awoxers and unscrupulous players that advocate it (I'm neither of those), but it is the players that believe there is power and purpose in giving players the choice to be good or bad. This is a game where your decisions matter, where consequences are harsh, and where you have the freedom to choose your path.

You might not like that the freedom in this game leaves everyone vulnerable, but that is part of the social dynamic. It adds a complexity to the MMO that takes this well above and beyond most alternative games on the market. That is why people protect the vulnerabilities, and its very sad that you don't appreciate it!
Keno Skir
#67 - 2014-01-23 09:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Right.

Imagine you're practicing a squad tactic, something that requires multiple pilots. 4 pilots on each team who would have to separately duel every member of the opposite team, which would be annoying enough. Even worse imagine you set up all the duels right and begin the fight, every member of your team must shoot every member of the opposing team at least once every few minutes just to keep all the duel timers running or risk concord when they accidentally switch to a target whos engagement timer had run out a second earlier. Can everyone see why corps have to be able to freely engage each other?

Ok how about another one >:)

Imagine its illegal to shoot corp mates, meaning that players must duel if they want to fight. That would obviously be tied into the current flagging system. So then between fights you want pilots armor repped back up by logistics, except you can't because interfering in a duel makes logi suspect and gets him killed even by people not in your corp.

...I get it, you've spent ALL your isk on a ship and you're afraid a nasty corp mate will kill it. Please stop bleating about changes to long standing and necessary rules before you have a decent enough understanding of the game to know why they are in place. Stop flying ships so valuable they make you afraid, or you will be sitting on the outskirts forever yelling to anyone who will listen that "corps are only for awoxers" and how everyone's after your lucky bloody charms.

Snifnix Padecain wrote:
The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.


Sort it out. If everything you didn't understand was considered un-necessary we'd have no game left.
Keno Skir
#68 - 2014-01-23 09:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Snifnix Padecain wrote:
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.


Not empty quoting.

Snifnix, there is no part of the above post that doesn't make you sound butt-hurt and generally ignorant.
Marcus Avon
New Eden Fedo Lovers Society
#69 - 2014-01-23 10:16:29 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
During one of the mining barge buffs, many highsec gankers were complaining about CCP trying to make highsec safe, and a Dev came out and said that if they wanted to, they could simply make illegal Player vs Player aggression impossible to do in highsec (especially with the new safeties), but they specifically don't because they don't believe any area of space should be "safe".

The point is, CCP and most of the playerbase want there to be drawbacks and dangers to joining a corp. Think of it as the "an armed society is a polite society" paradigm, as your pissed off corpmate could do some serious damage to you and yours.


Ok, its not safe to join a corp, I get that, and its that way by design, totally understand that too, like it even. But the designers cant have their cake and eat it too. If they have designed risk and danger into the very foundation of the game then they would have to expect that a certain percentage of the player base will weigh up the pros and cons and logically conclude that the cons are simply too extreme to justify the benefits.

Some risks are mandatory, like undocking, but others like joining a corp are entirely voluntary and can be completely avoided if the risk is perceived by the player as outweighing the benefits. CCP have to expect that some players will come to that conclusion based on their design. How large that percentage is I have no idea, but Oraac Ensor seems to suggest that its not insignificant which is entirely understandable.

It has nothing to do with nonsense like being unsociable or not wanting to play a multiplayer game, its simply a value judgement which results in combined risks / hassles appearing to exceed potential benefits. Nothing more.

I actually like the universe of EVE dark and hostile, I like the fact that there are real predators out there that I have to outsmart in order to survive. But the whole idea of joining a large corp just makes me feel like I'm turning my back on those very same predators and letting my guard down instead of facing them with a whip and a chair.

The first rule of EVE is NOT: Trust no one......... except when you join a corp in which case by all means trust an indeterminate bunch of sociopathic individuals and assorted homicidal maniacs with every detail about yourself and then hope they wont shoot you. Its simply: Trust no one. Period. You cant have it both ways......

Of course if the potential benefits did clearly outweigh the risks that would be different and this thread has been very useful to me in pointing out several benefits that I was previously unaware of, but it still doesn't seem enough to outweigh the many negatives. Maybe I'll feel differently when financial survival is no longer my only priority.
Keno Skir
#70 - 2014-01-23 10:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
I'v met people in eve i would (and have) trust with my real world money, not even just my pixel-ships.

I don't think most here are raging because someone doesn't want to join a corp, that is of course anyones choice to make. The rage comes when people want the game changed dispite being blissfully unaware of the deeper reasoning behind the rules they don't like.

"Trust Nobody" is not rule 1 of eve by any stretch of the imagination.

Don't fly what you cannot afford to replace is rule 1, and even that's a bendy rule if that's what makes things fun for you personally.

The opposition in this thread has only pointed out ONE drawback to being in a corp, and AWOXing isn't even all that common in the grand scheme of things. Add that to the fact that a new players posessions are of little or no value to an older player and you might start to realise AWOXing has been made out to be more likely than it actually is.

In 3 years i have only had 1 corp member attempt to kill me, and he failed. It'll most likely happen again over the next 3 years, but 1 pilot out of hundreds that had the chance to do the same is a VERY SMALL NUMBER.
J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-01-23 12:51:49 UTC
Snifnix Padecain wrote:
As much we all appreciate condescending advice on how to survive in EvE, I honestly don't see a lot of responses that tackle the actual matter at hand. The capacity for regurgitating EvE dogma is unfortunately of limited value when trying to examine a concrete issue from a perspective of game design.

The fact is that people have a hard time creating social structures even though they want to, and that this in part is due to a mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

The gist of it kinda boils down to this simple question: What is most valuable for EvE? To have a special mechanic in place to allow some players to easily experience the thrill of awoxing, or to strengthen the room for building social structure in a system more aligned to a neutral consistency ?

And to those that are prone to hysteria and fear that such a thing would change everything and turn EvE into Hello Kitty Online,.. get real and try to stop and think for a second. This IS highsec we're talking about here and highsec IS already subject to law enforcement. In effect you are arguing that there shouldn't be a highsec to begin with, in which case you're missing the premise of the thread.

Besides, claiming the need for having to install special circumstance that hand hold rogues so they can be successful at some cheesy skulduggery, is kind of an insult to the more imaginative and resourceful crooks out there.


So, special snowflake, point me out on the rifter where the bad man touched you.


So, you are someone who only cares about non consentual, boring PvE grinding stuff, and you measure your success in the value of your overpriced ship with even more overpriced modules.

And then come to the forums complaining how CCP should change the game.


Guess what, it ain't going to happen. EVE is a PvP game, thus, PvP is everywhere.
Now before you start whining again that EVE ain't a PvP game, take a look at this. Specially Chapter 5, subsection 5.3 on page 13. 2nd sentence says:
Quote:

This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.


While you are at it, look at the author of said guide...CCP themselfs.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-01-23 12:53:18 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
During one of the mining barge buffs, many highsec gankers were complaining about CCP trying to make highsec safe, and a Dev came out and said that if they wanted to, they could simply make illegal Player vs Player aggression impossible to do in highsec (especially with the new safeties), but they specifically don't because they don't believe any area of space should be "safe".

The point is, CCP and most of the playerbase want there to be drawbacks and dangers to joining a corp. Think of it as the "an armed society is a polite society" paradigm, as your pissed off corpmate could do some serious damage to you and yours.


Ok, its not safe to join a corp, I get that, and its that way by design, totally understand that too, like it even. But the designers cant have their cake and eat it too. If they have designed risk and danger into the very foundation of the game then they would have to expect that a certain percentage of the player base will weigh up the pros and cons and logically conclude that the cons are simply too extreme to justify the benefits.


Again saying that there are extreme cons about joining a corp, but in 4 pages of whining by Solo players I haven't seen a single one of them.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-01-23 12:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Marcus Avon wrote:
How large that percentage is I have no idea, but Oraac Ensor seems to suggest that its not insignificant which is entirely understandable.


Using 4 year old statistics.

Ooh and heads up, it's a questionaire, how many players do you think actually take the time to do that.
After doing a good bit of market research for my uni for projects, I can assure you, it ain't over 50% of their customers most likely that fill in the questions.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-01-23 12:57:52 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:

I actually like the universe of EVE dark and hostile, I like the fact that there are real predators out there that I have to outsmart in order to survive. But the whole idea of joining a large corp just makes me feel like I'm turning my back on those very same predators and letting my guard down instead of facing them with a whip and a chair.


So, by hiding you "outsmart" them, okay, what ever floats your boat.



And joining a large corp...is generally safer then being solo. Strength through numbers. And you, solo, can never ever aquire intel of distant systems, where as with a corp, you can.

When you are alone, he might take you on.
When you are with 10 friends, that same person likely reconsiders and backs off.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-01-23 13:02:30 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:

The first rule of EVE is NOT: Trust no one......... except when you join a corp in which case by all means trust an indeterminate bunch of sociopathic individuals and assorted homicidal maniacs with every detail about yourself and then hope they wont shoot you. Its simply: Trust no one. Period. You cant have it both ways......
.


And using the typical carebear reasoning agian I see.


Sure, trust nobody...with stuff you don't want to lose.

Ooh I have a Marauder for mission running, but also a BC. I joined a new corp, what ship should I bring the first time...easy solution, I trust them with the BC, because losing that isn't as big of a loss compared to the Marauder.

And who says you MUST givbe all details about you. YOU give tehm the details you want.
None of my former corps knew about the names of my alts, what I did with them, what ships I had, where they were parked etc. etc.
I gave the information needed to the person who needed it, when I thought it was good enough to trust them with them.


You're are just a very overly paranoid solo player. Good luck in your time in EVE, I had a good vibe about you and what you posted, but in this thread it went from 100 to 0 in less then 2 pages. Just by showing how little you know about the game, and how you generalize everything.

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J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-01-23 13:06:51 UTC
Marcus Avon wrote:

Of course if the potential benefits did clearly outweigh the risks that would be different and this thread has been very useful to me in pointing out several benefits that I was previously unaware of, but it still doesn't seem enough to outweigh the many negatives. Maybe I'll feel differently when financial survival is no longer my only priority.


Again, what risks are there:


Awoxers - yes, they is a marginally chance your corp will attract one. If you join a corp full of awoxers, it's your own damn fault, as such corps are named and shamed on the internet and you should see the warnings well before that.

Wardec - yes, but then again, if you end up with wardecs, you attracted them as a corp yourself. My alt holding corp is now active for nearly 3 years (started in Feb 2011), it NEVER had a wardec. And I've been missioning, mining, hauling and supplying war equipments with the alts for that time.

If you find yourself under a war, ask yourself, what did the corp do to attract the attention of a wardeccer.

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Keno Skir
#77 - 2014-01-23 14:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Not letting you have 7 posts in a row :P

EDIT FOR CONTENT : Loads of stuff about risks and mechanics with a bit of light humour & stuff..
Sage Fields
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-01-23 14:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sage Fields
The key is that Ill never know as they did not have the courtesy to tell me. My suspicion is that I do not use any kind of microphone due to living arrangements and the fact that I hate talking online.

To add to the confusion, one corp gave me 50 million ISK one day and kicked me the next day. They moved bases and even asked me to follow them to the new one and thats when I was kicked. They knew I didnt have a microphone as I was up front about that to start with. So like I said, its a complete mystery.

Also before I started playing eve I used to play League of Legends which is well known for its toxic players. I know two corps is absolutely nothing but combining that with league of legends and I desperately needed a break from being on any kind of team for a while.
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
#79 - 2014-01-23 16:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Haedonism Bot
Marcus Avon wrote:
I actually like the universe of EVE dark and hostile, I like the fact that there are real predators out there that I have to outsmart in order to survive. But the whole idea of joining a large corp just makes me feel like I'm turning my back on those very same predators and letting my guard down instead of facing them with a whip and a chair.


Except that by staying in an NPC corp, you aren't facing the lions with a whip and a chair, you are hiding under a rock and hoping they will pass by without noticing you. This strategy makes some sense in a real world context, where being eaten is the price of failure, but in a video game it makes no sense at all.

When I started EVE, I was in E-Uni for about a year, and have been an active part of the alumni community ever since. In the years that I have been associated with them (this is a corp with thousands of members, btw, and new people coming and going every day), to my knowledge there have only been two AWOX incidents. Only one of those did any significant damage and neither really affected the average member.

I'm telling you this to point out that you are making a big deal out of something that is really an insignificant risk to any corporation where the leadership knows what they are doing. Think older, larger, more established corps with a documented history of success, if you are so concerned about this.

In related news, E-Uni has an SRP, and I believe it does include cruisers. You mentioned that losing your cruiser would be devastating for you. Seems like a benefit you may wish to consider.

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Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#80 - 2014-01-23 16:14:02 UTC
Sage Fields wrote:
The key is that Ill never know as they did not have the courtesy to tell me. My suspicion is that I do not use any kind of microphone due to living arrangements and the fact that I hate talking online.

To add to the confusion, one corp gave me 50 million ISK one day and kicked me the next day. They moved bases and even asked me to follow them to the new one and thats when I was kicked. They knew I didnt have a microphone as I was up front about that to start with. So like I said, its a complete mystery.

Also before I started playing eve I used to play League of Legends which is well known for its toxic players. I know two corps is absolutely nothing but combining that with league of legends and I desperately needed a break from being on any kind of team for a while.


There is a lot to be learned from listening to the sound of one's voice. There is also room for misunderstanding as players from different cultures express things different ways.

We wouldn't accept a player that isn't on comms 90% of the times their playing. We also expect players to live and operate in our home operating base, to regularly participate in corp activities, etc. It is also a means to protect ourselves, to maintain activity levels, and to build camaraderie.

I can also understand that you want to avoid the drama that coincides when playing with others. Every playground has people that feel shunned and picked on, people that bully, and players that just want to play. Furthermore, what comes across as fun banter to some hurts the feelings of others, such that there will always be the potential for drama in any gathering of people. Online, the social ramifications are less, the game ramifications are low, so we get how some corp atmospheres are toxic. Most are though, and if you find yourself in such a situation I strongly encourage you to move to a more enjoyable atmosphere. If you are the type that doesn't mesh well with others, you're free to play on your own too.