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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Caldari State
#21 - 2014-01-21 13:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Top up reloads are a major pain.

Given the targets for these launchers are smaller ship classes than the carring ship the chance of smaller faster quarry evading or not engageing in the first place are very high especially when fighting solo.

This leads to a situation that you fire off a few rounds and then have to reload for 40 secs.
A half full RL is not much use for killing anything before a deagessing target can jump out / dock / flee.


A fix for these launchers needs to take into account the amount of ammo being reloaded.

I would make reload time = ( 1 - 2 seconds based on meta ) * number of rounds reloaded + 5 seconds for flavour swap.





I still don't support introducing burst mechanics on RL though.
There are too few fitting choices for missile users already.

All gun users get 3 long and 3 short range options to suit available fittings.

Missile users now only have 1 general purpose long range and 1 short range.
The RL are now niche weapons.

Would have been much better if you had kept RL as they were and introduced burst as a new module.


Give missile boats fitting options and maybe I stop hating.


~ Make equivs of Ions / Electrons for Missile boats.
#22 - 2014-01-21 13:03:26 UTC
Quote:
I'm sure EVE players are patient enough the problem is in EVE a fast kill is normally a better kill.
35 Seconds where you can't apply any DPS is time your opponent can.
* Repair any damage if active tanked.
* Nuet more of you cap if using neuts.
* Get more cycles on ECM mods/drones if they're being used, if one of these lands at the 34 seconds mark ... ouch!
* Call in reinforcements if the fights not going well.
* Have adaptive hardeners adjust to your damage type.
* Continue to damage your ships making a close fight not so close.

Adding all that to the fact missiles are not greatest of weapons systems in all cases any way and it's too much of a gamble for most people to want to use. There was a vast amounts of feedback and pointing out the flaws before the initial changes were made (the major one being we can't switch damage types more than once a minute) but the missiles were pushed out any way and to my knowledge been a flop.


I have to disagree with this point. with an over-reliant focus on the negative aspects of the weapon. you are proposing that fast kills are better kills, yet use this as an argument against a burst fire style weapon system? it seems counter intuitive.

by all rights, the concept of a burst fire mechanic should incline the user to try and maximize this advantage. by front loading your dps you are making a determined attempt to overload you're opponents tank in a short period of time. the downside of this of course is that more durable opponents do indeed have the oppertuinity to do as you say above, but as a technical point considering the previous version of the weapon system (pre-rapid launch) only had 10% more effective dps than this new iteration, what would prevent them from doing ANY of the above against a standard mechanism?

indeed, one of the more significant points you make is being struck by ECM or an ECM drone just before your reload completes, rendering your damage output moot. I would counter argue that there is just as much likeliness of this jam landing at the start of your reload cycle, rendering it's effect moot. to claim higher ECM strength would be foolhardy as well as normal weapon systems would be just as badly effected by continuous jamming cycles, if anything the burst fire of rapid lights would prove themselves superior in this situation firing more missiles between sucessful jams.

similarly, you speak of adaptive hardeners which, if i'm not mistaken mechanically, require continuous incoming damage in order to calculate the resistance shift and also have a predetermined cycle time. logically speaking the burst fire mechanic of RLML's are actually a superior weapon choice in this instance as your target would have less cycles for the modules to make the correct switch, the module then not changing further during your reload time.

there are of course intrinsic weaknesses to the rapid launch burst fire mechanic, but to argue that the weaknesses completely outweigh the advantages is disingenuous. you don't expect me to proclaim blasters worthless because i can shoot further with rails nor would you expect me to proclaim autocannons vastly superior to pulse lasers because they can select their damage types.

there are situations and decisions that every pilot has to make when deploying their vessels in combat, rapid lights might be a particularly specialized version of this but this does not render them as some would claim worthless.


as for these changes, I've already made it aware that i'm very much a fan of this weapon system and these changes are only a buff for a weapon system i was already using with glee in wormhole operations. more deeps and shorter reloads? yes please.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"

#23 - 2014-01-21 13:11:50 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
CCP Rise: Okay we'll shorten it by 5 seconds.

Players: NO! 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

* CCP Rise has left the conversation.


This post best sums up the entire conversation about the rapid launcher 'rebalance' from the original announcement post, to the present. I cannot emphasize this enough.

The people who have mentioned ECM are spot on - a single successful jam cycle of ECM is 20 seconds. That is frustrating enough as it is because it is something outside of your control. Now imagine that you're unable to shoot for almost twice that length of time, with the difference being that you did it to yourself.

That's what using the rapid launchers is like. It's voluntarily jamming your ship for the equivalent of multiple ECM cycles.

Out of ammo? You just jammed yourself for 2 cycles.

Wrong missile type because the guy who you need to shoot has a different resist hole? You just jammed yourself for two cycles.

God forbid you're one of those lemmings who participates in fights like the one in HED over the weekend that are so full of TiDi it's like you've gone back in time to Woodstock. Might as well go take a ****, read a book and play another game - you'll be done with all of that before you're finished reloading.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Caldari State
#24 - 2014-01-21 13:27:46 UTC
What don't you get about how terrible this idea was from the beginning? How many posts do you need with people telling you "No"??

Sometimes in life you need to suck it up and admit you had a bad idea mixed in with all the good ones. You'll come out looking better than you are now.
The Tuskers Co.
#25 - 2014-01-21 13:28:46 UTC
cool change
HYDRA RELOADED
#26 - 2014-01-21 13:29:18 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:

The people who have mentioned ECM are spot on - a single successful jam cycle of ECM is 20 seconds. That is frustrating enough as it is because it is something outside of your control. Now imagine that you're unable to shoot for almost twice that length of time, with the difference being that you did it to yourself.

That's what using the rapid launchers is like. It's voluntarily jamming your ship for the equivalent of multiple ECM cycles.

Out of ammo? You just jammed yourself for 2 cycles.


Don't forget the high burst you had before you "jammed" yourself.

❤️️💛💚💙💜

#27 - 2014-01-21 13:31:50 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:

The people who have mentioned ECM are spot on - a single successful jam cycle of ECM is 20 seconds. That is frustrating enough as it is because it is something outside of your control. Now imagine that you're unable to shoot for almost twice that length of time, with the difference being that you did it to yourself.

That's what using the rapid launchers is like. It's voluntarily jamming your ship for the equivalent of multiple ECM cycles.

Out of ammo? You just jammed yourself for 2 cycles.


Don't forget the high burst you had before you "jammed" yourself.



very much so, people are claiming that there is no upside to this "self jamming". there very much is a big advantage in doing this, its called 100 caldari navy missiles fired within a 50 second time frame from a single caracal. reloading for 35 seconds... then firing ANOTHER 100 missiles.

as mentioned previously by a very wise CSMer, 2+0 is the same as 1+1

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"

#28 - 2014-01-21 13:58:04 UTC
I'm okay with this
The Tuskers Co.
#29 - 2014-01-21 14:09:12 UTC
Yeah whatever man.


/thumbs up

Great changes!
#30 - 2014-01-21 14:13:54 UTC
So you can't get these changes "as you like them" done by 1.1.
But you acknowledge there are serious problems still with this entire concept.

Fine.

Then for 1.1, revert back to the old system, put the system that you have tweaked (with the 35 sec reload, and increased capacity) on Sisi, and let the players screw around with it there until you get it right.

Why are you dumping a broken weapon system on Tranquility, when you have a test server designed for that very purpose?
#31 - 2014-01-21 14:18:33 UTC
I can sympathise with people not liking the reload time for between targets/fights or for type swapping (if type swapping was 5 seconds but left you with the same number as in the previous load, so type swapping 1 missile would leave you with only 1 missile).

But those talking about "oh no 35 seconds during the fight" - the point of front loaded dps is DEAD before you reload. It is precisely like artillery - dead in the first shot. It's meant to be the missile version of alpha, doing heavy damage quick, with a penalty for failure (lower overall dps). It isn't a 1 shot like artillery but it makes up for this by being much more applicable dps than the standard sized missiles for the ship class (eg HML/HAM on a caracal).

If you run out of missiles in this front loaded module class then you've lost. Should you survive the reload and get to fire again, it's like surviving after the first artillery round cycles and you're given the golden ticket of being able to shoot a second time.
HYDRA RELOADED
#32 - 2014-01-21 14:24:11 UTC
Miz's guide to fixing your own RLML
With 1.1 stats


  1. Split your launchers into 2 groups
  2. Start shooting with one of the groups
  3. After roughly 40s of shooting start the 2nd group
  4. When the first group hits reload, let it reload and start shooting right away
  5. Enjoy sustained dps


Protip: If you start with 2 different ammo types you can start shooting with the one that matches your target's resishole while reloading the other one to the correct damage type.

❤️️💛💚💙💜

#33 - 2014-01-21 14:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aimee Maken
here is the thing, can RLML or RHMLs do what they should be doing

one shot someone like a fully auto shot gun unload to someone that is a relatively short range away (for the ships they are being mounted on)

and the answer to that is a resounding NO.

the rush of applying damage is nice and all, but that damage is not alpha enough to be more like tornado on a gate (for RHML), but more like just really high dps for a short while then twiddle your thumbs for more time.

if you can pop things while shooting then it would be nice, but as it stands, i feel that what it can be popped in a single reload cruisers can't catch solo, but what it can catch will likely live thru the full unload.

so that means you better pack more tank on your alpha ship... which means you either drop bcs and sustain, but then it becomes less a alpha ship but just a ****** dps ship with lower dps number when you factor in the reload.


i guess if a gang REALLY needed a frig destroyer and can hold it down while they pack other gun somehow then this is it, but you guys should really look at the alpha of a reload (and the time it takes to spew it out), maybe instead of doing this turn that up and have even longer reload. atm it feels less burst and more meh.
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2014-01-21 14:38:03 UTC
Please focus on the part of the post where I said we considered bigger changes because of how people felt about the extended reload in general, but decided to make a tweak and wait for more data and feedback rather than reversing things too quickly.

If you want to help us out on this topic, try to give specific reasons or examples and then just hang in there and watch for updates heading into the next few months.

Also, a small response to the comparison with jamming: I think parts of the experience are obviously the same (not being able to fire for a period of time), but there a lot of other parts to compensate (or at least that is the idea). With RML you get to choose when that period of time will be, you get to control a lot of factors that contribute to how significant that period of time is (how your ship is fit, where you're located in space, what targets you choose etc), and you get the huge benefit of very high front-loaded damage. Not disregarding the fact that not being able to shoot doesn't feel good, just pointing out that they are different situations in some important ways.

@ccp_rise

Caldari State
#35 - 2014-01-21 14:38:26 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I posted an update recently in the old rapid missile thread on this topic but I assume many of you haven't been watching that so I'm making a new thread for the time being with some updates for 1.1.

.............

We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them, so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months. Large changes are still on the table and I won't be finished with this until we address the ammo swapping issue.

Thanks for reading and responding




I'm pretty intrested in these numbers, Jita sales suggest otherwise.


Aside from that I still think this RML overhaul is to soon, fix missiles first instead of reducing one of the last usualble systems, in a ganking ship for frigates.

It's a nice idea, though not as a replaicement for the rapid light.

Make it a weapon of its one call it the Gurista Missile burst launcher (it sounds like a pirate weapon)

give it it's own ammo that does rainbow damage.

and take a good look at the old RLML adjust that to aceptable power.

and start looking to missile mechanics as whole, High SP, damage aplication, it being to static.

During the ship reballance almost all ships became faster, which hurts missiles as a whole.

#36 - 2014-01-21 14:42:37 UTC
30s and you have a deal

fc pls
The Tuskers Co.
#37 - 2014-01-21 14:43:58 UTC
is it really that hard to admit that introducing an anciliary mechanic to RLMLs was never a good idea in the first place?
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-01-21 14:45:16 UTC
I approve of these changes. Still entertaining reading the tears though. If you can't kill or evade a few frigs with an rlml fit, then you're doing it wrong. Being blobbed is one thing, but sizing up your opponents before engaging is how you rlml. I use my scyfi and belli all the time to defrig gate camps.
#39 - 2014-01-21 14:55:41 UTC
Good joke Rise, why isn't anyone laughing
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-01-21 15:05:20 UTC
Personally, I like Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers. I use them alongside Sentries in PvE because they serve as good burst damage on anything cruiser sized and up that gets into range of my sentries. That said, even mitigating the reload to after I've used a Micro Jump Drive, I find myself out of ammo too quickly and then doing nothing until I've reloaded again. If it's not a good idea to MJD away at a given moment, I usually need to sigh and wait for that painfully long reload before I can do anything. I might like and be using Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers, but it's a begrudging sort of use. They're what I want to use, but the reload time is so bad they're pretty much not worth using. I only stick with them for lack of a better option.

I feel they need at very least a 30 second reload, OR a much larger clip size to justify their use. As it stands, 25 missiles and 35 seconds just isn't enough. 25 missiles and 30 seconds seems like a better option, since the biggest issue with this is the cripplingly long reload time removing any real utility to the weapon, making it an extremely blunt "empty your magazine and hope the target dies" weapon. You can't change ammo due to the long reload, if you need to reload you're doing nothing for the next eternity, and if you want to have a full clip in preparation for new enemies, your reload is so long there's a chance they could land on you and be attacking before you're ready to do anything about it.

I'll still use them with this buff, it'll help, but I think the reload still severely hampers their use to the point of worthlessness in many cases. This is a step in the right direction, just not a very big one.
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