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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Author
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2014-01-21 15:09:23 UTC
If an ammunition swap fix were implemented, these would be really good I feel, possibly even a bit too strong.

Without said fix though, theyre definitely not as bad as some people are saying, but just a bit too unwieldy to really fall in love with.

I do like the concept, and this change makes them a little more usable, but still doesnt really change anything from what they were in 1.0.
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
#42 - 2014-01-21 15:10:05 UTC
These changes effectively do nothing. A 35 second reload to swap ammo is still far too long to react to any change on the field and the only effect you have given rlms now is they kill frigates even faster. Unfortunately I don't believe they are at the breakpoint where they can kill an af in a single clip so other than mincing t1 frigates more often nothing changes.

You still refused to involve yourself in the discussion in the original rlm thread that actually went in depth into damage mechanics and the missile application formula in regards to all missiles. That could have been an amazing discussion but instead you peek in and now its 35 seconds, so 1.75 times a jam cycle instead of 2.

There is still 0 reason to use this mechanic outside of killing 1-2 (well maybe 3) frigates and leaving the field, which so many other cruisers can do while staying on field and continuing to impact the fight. Your counterpoint is that we get to choose when to stop shooting for nearly 2 jam cycles so it is fine? I don't get to choose when something lands and I need to swap ammo to apply full damage to it, I still don't see the small gang community using this system much at all.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#43 - 2014-01-21 15:12:53 UTC
"We have one good weapon system so lets make it **** so it matches the others"

Now clean the mess Rise

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2014-01-21 15:13:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Please focus on the part of the post where I said we considered bigger changes because of how people felt about the extended reload in general, but decided to make a tweak and wait for more data and feedback rather than reversing things too quickly.

If you want to help us out on this topic, try to give specific reasons or examples and then just hang in there and watch for updates heading into the next few months.

Also, a small response to the comparison with jamming: I think parts of the experience are obviously the same (not being able to fire for a period of time), but there a lot of other parts to compensate (or at least that is the idea). With RML you get to choose when that period of time will be, you get to control a lot of factors that contribute to how significant that period of time is (how your ship is fit, where you're located in space, what targets you choose etc), and you get the huge benefit of very high front-loaded damage. Not disregarding the fact that not being able to shoot doesn't feel good, just pointing out that they are different situations in some important ways.


We're not allowed to focus on the part where you proposed a silly, we told you it was a silly, you did the silly, and we all still hate the silly?

Please do not focus on the part where a developer proposed a terrible idea that was not only terrible but impossible to implement workarounds for from a technical perspective. Oh and by the way the workaround involves it somehow taking less time to unload 20 missiles and then load 20 new missiles into a launcher than it takes to put 20 missiles into an empty launcher. Because that makes sense! If you implement your "fix" will we also be able to put containers inside of containers inside of containers? Because personally I've always resented that little pop-up that appears telling me that "PHYSICS SAYS NO."

How about you just change rapid launchers back into normal launchers that happen to use smaller missiles and call it a day? You know, because you won't have to bug fifty programmers to implement some nonsensical workaround for a problem that should never exist in the first place, and we can all enjoy shooting hardly-interrupted streams of missiles at things again? I swear to god reading these forums is like spending your day in an insane asylum sometimes, but weirder.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#45 - 2014-01-21 15:20:18 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
"We have one good weapon system so lets make it **** so it matches the others"

Now clean the mess Rise


Dont worry, sentries are still OP
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2014-01-21 15:20:40 UTC
"Guys we don't have programmer man-hours to devote to making our game multi-threaded or implementing live node-remapping: all programmers are currently working on the rapid missile launcher ammo-swapping (but not reloading) workaround."
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#47 - 2014-01-21 15:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
To me it seems strange that people are calling for shorter reload times, if you want shorter reload times then why not just use the standard HML's. To me it seems a complete misunderstanding of the concept if you are asking for shorter reload times.

The three things that should be looked at are;

1. Reduce firing cycle time, they still seem to fire a little too slow for my liking, not enough difference between them and a regular HML.

2. Reduce explosion radius and increase explosion velocity, ie make them better at taking out the smaller target they are intended to take out.

3. Higher magazine capacity, CCP Rise has already done this, as more missiles fired over the same timespan mean better at delivering burst damage.

If anything I would increase these three aspects and lengthen the reload time even more to compensate. Don't give in and simply blend them even further into a regular HML with less dps and a longer reload time, as that is why no one will use them. If you change the factors above then good pvpers who understand the game mechanics properly will definitely use them.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-01-21 15:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Ganthrithor wrote:


We're not allowed to focus on the part where you proposed a silly, we told you it was a silly, you did the silly, and we all still hate the silly?

Please do not focus on the part where a developer proposed a terrible idea that was not only terrible but impossible to implement workarounds for from a technical perspective. Oh and by the way the workaround involves it somehow taking less time to unload 20 missiles and then load 20 new missiles into a launcher than it takes to put 20 missiles into an empty launcher. Because that makes sense! If you implement your "fix" will we also be able to put containers inside of containers inside of containers? Because personally I've always resented that little pop-up that appears telling me that "PHYSICS SAYS NO."

How about you just change rapid launchers back into normal launchers that happen to use smaller missiles and call it a day? You know, because you won't have to bug fifty programmers to implement some nonsensical workaround for a problem that should never exist in the first place, and we can all enjoy shooting hardly-interrupted streams of missiles at things again? I swear to god reading these forums is like spending your day in an insane asylum sometimes, but weirder.


hey folks! welcome to connall tara's guide to not influence someone's opinion towards your eventual goals!

point 1: claim the majority of opinion to yourself!

when you don't like something, CLEARLY EVERYONE HATES IT TO! so when making responses always imply that everyone is on your side, even if people have posted otherwise! only 6% of the eve community uses the forums, but they clearly don't need to know that!

point 2: lay the blame!

clearly it's THAT PERSONS FAULT that everything is now wrong with the world! no understanding or compromise permitted here! remember to claim that nothing was ever wrong in the first place! that disproportionate use of an anti-frigate missile system against cruisers was perfectly fine!

point 3: physics!

don't like the mechanics? don't worry! in eve online we get to pick and choose when physics makes sense, and as community members we get to move the goal posts! after all, we don't question submarines in space but if its convieniant we can damn well call out missile clip reload times!

point 4: Insult the dev!

he's clearly an idiot compared to you! you should let him know that! imply he should be locked up and put away, that'll show 'em!


yes, we damn well get it you don't like the changes, YES we saw the gods damned mega thread the haters kept spinning on wards for weeks. but if you are unable to argue your point without resorting to shouting until you get your own way then its no bloody wonder the development crew are less likely to listen to you.

all posts are not created equal, all opinions do not carry the same weight. if you want to change things then it is YOUR responsibility to come up with reasonable and valid reasons and counter arguments and put those arguments under scrutiny of the developers and of your peers.

you know... like how the re-balance team does every time they announce changes by posting one of these threads, its not like we hurl abuse at them like toddlers when we don't get our way.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#49 - 2014-01-21 15:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Rise wrote:
Please focus on the part of the post where I said we considered bigger changes because of how people felt about the extended reload in general, but decided to make a tweak and wait for more data and feedback rather than reversing things too quickly.


Why waiting again for feedback when the changes are insignificant? Its not like if you were about to get brand new numbers that will change everything...

I am amazed at how you are change-averse when things a broken, compared to how you were quite "head-on" when people were telling you that changing rapid launchers this way was bad.

Think about all the energy that has been spend on the issue here already, energy that could have been spend in a whole missile rebalance instead.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-01-21 15:35:02 UTC
While you guys are working on overheat changes, why not making it that overheating a rapid launcher also decreases its reload time, at a cost of X heat damage for landing on reload while overheated?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#51 - 2014-01-21 15:39:04 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Miz's guide to fixing your own RLML
With 1.1 stats


  1. Split your launchers into 2 groups
  2. Start shooting with one of the groups
  3. After roughly 40s of shooting start the 2nd group
  4. When the first group hits reload, let it reload and start shooting right away
  5. Enjoy sustained dps


Protip: If you start with 2 different ammo types you can start shooting with the one that matches your target's resishole while reloading the other one to the correct damage type.


Stupid idea, since the Caracal has 5 Launchers - 5 is a number which cannot be divided by 2!

Also: RLML-Caracals should prefer to fight ECM-boats. Then they can be jammed AND reloading at the same time for double efficiency!
(plus they can repair heat damage at the same time TRIPLING the efficiency!!!!)
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#52 - 2014-01-21 15:40:24 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:

(plus they can repair heat damage at the same time TRIPLING the efficiency!!!!)


ALMOST! >You cannot repair heat damage while reloading.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Jean-Baptiste Zorginho
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-01-21 15:42:35 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Miz's guide to fixing your own RLML
With 1.1 stats


  1. Split your launchers into 2 groups
  2. Start shooting with one of the groups
  3. After roughly 40s of shooting start the 2nd group
  4. When the first group hits reload, let it reload and start shooting right away
  5. Enjoy sustained dps


Protip: If you start with 2 different ammo types you can start shooting with the one that matches your target's resishole while reloading the other one to the correct damage type.


Awesome idea, will be cool dps with that idea, not firing the first 20s with 50% of the guns!

@Rise: Well I do see a problem with the rapid damage type change - probably the same you do, when you allow people to change ammo type within a smaller timeframe then people would exploit this to change to ammo B and back to ammo A. I get the idea of it, high initial damage but less dps due to reload time. But wouldnt it make more sense to give the missiles a higher damage, lower ROF and higher velocity. So that you get a high alpha, fast application and no issues with reload time, damage type, etc.? You could make that work at least for the BS sized RM...

Just an idea.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-01-21 15:45:12 UTC
Jean-Baptiste Zorginho wrote:


Awesome idea, will be cool dps with that idea, not firing the first 20s with 50% of the guns!

@Rise: Well I do see a problem with the rapid damage type change - probably the same you do, when you allow people to change ammo type within a smaller timeframe then people would exploit this to change to ammo B and back to ammo A. I get the idea of it, high initial damage but less dps due to reload time. But wouldnt it make more sense to give the missiles a higher damage, lower ROF and higher velocity. So that you get a high alpha, fast application and no issues with reload time, damage type, etc.? You could make that work at least for the BS sized RM...

Just an idea.


I originally proposed that ammo changing should work like this:

you change ammo instantly (or in 5/10 seconds, but isnt there enough waiting), but if you have 1 charge left before reload your new ammo type will still have 1 charge left before reload.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Jean-Baptiste Zorginho
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-01-21 15:46:22 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Jean-Baptiste Zorginho wrote:


Awesome idea, will be cool dps with that idea, not firing the first 20s with 50% of the guns!

@Rise: Well I do see a problem with the rapid damage type change - probably the same you do, when you allow people to change ammo type within a smaller timeframe then people would exploit this to change to ammo B and back to ammo A. I get the idea of it, high initial damage but less dps due to reload time. But wouldnt it make more sense to give the missiles a higher damage, lower ROF and higher velocity. So that you get a high alpha, fast application and no issues with reload time, damage type, etc.? You could make that work at least for the BS sized RM...

Just an idea.


I originally proposed that ammo changing should work like this:

you change ammo instantly (or in 5/10 seconds, but isnt there enough waiting), but if you have 1 charge left before reload your new ammo type will still have 1 charge left before reload.


Sounds good to me.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#56 - 2014-01-21 15:51:47 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Edward Olmops wrote:

(plus they can repair heat damage at the same time TRIPLING the efficiency!!!!)


ALMOST! >You cannot repair heat damage while reloading.


Are you sure?
Has that been changed?
This did work on ASBs/AARs... (the module is not active while reloading)
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#57 - 2014-01-21 15:53:44 UTC
Jean-Baptiste Zorginho wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Miz's guide to fixing your own RLML
With 1.1 stats


  1. Split your launchers into 2 groups
  2. Start shooting with one of the groups
  3. After roughly 40s of shooting start the 2nd group
  4. When the first group hits reload, let it reload and start shooting right away
  5. Enjoy sustained dps


Protip: If you start with 2 different ammo types you can start shooting with the one that matches your target's resishole while reloading the other one to the correct damage type.


Awesome idea, will be cool dps with that idea, not firing the first 20s with 50% of the guns!

I think some people are not understanding basic mathematics.

If you fire 2 guns each at 200% damage, and then they stop and another 2 guns fire at 200% each , that is equal to 4 guns firing continuously each at 100% damage.

Miz's guide was written tongue in cheek to show how it is misguided to complain about the reload time.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2014-01-21 15:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Connall Tara wrote:
all posts are not created equal, all opinions do not carry the same weight. if you want to change things then it is YOUR responsibility to come up with reasonable and valid reasons and counter arguments and put those arguments under scrutiny of the developers and of your peers.

you know... like how the re-balance team does every time they announce changes by posting one of these threads, its not like we hurl abuse at them like toddlers when we don't get our way.


HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

...seriously?

Comes into a thread accusing me of not providing useful criticism, after I and a quadrillion other posters all provided Rise constructive criticism only to be repeatedly ignored outright. Then gives me a stern talking to about blaming a dev for the ideas that that dev introduced to the community and that that dev then proceeded to ram through despite massive community outcry from people like me who have been paying for, playing, and providing ideas and constructive criticism for this game for eight years.

Seriously.

This just happened.

CLEARLY the reason this thread exists and concessions are being made is that the usage stats on these rapid launchers indicate people's general displeasure with the changes. If the "majority-of-players-who-are-definitely-not-represented-by-Ganthrithor's-views-or-the-views-of-any-of-the-other-8000-people-who-don't-favor-these-changes" approved of the 1.0 changes, this thread would not exist. If Rise were at all confident that these proposed 1.1 changes would solve things, he wouldn't be leaving the possibility of "other major changes down the road" on the table.

Kindly find a more acceptable object for your white-knighting, sir.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-01-21 16:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Ganthrithor wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
all posts are not created equal, all opinions do not carry the same weight. if you want to change things then it is YOUR responsibility to come up with reasonable and valid reasons and counter arguments and put those arguments under scrutiny of the developers and of your peers.

you know... like how the re-balance team does every time they announce changes by posting one of these threads, its not like we hurl abuse at them like toddlers when we don't get our way.


HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

...seriously?

Comes into a thread accusing me of not providing useful criticism, after I and a quadrillion other posters all provided Rise constructive criticism only to be repeatedly ignored outright. Then gives me a stern talking to about blaming a dev for the ideas that that dev introduced to the community and that that dev then proceeded to ram through despite massive community outcry from people like me who have been paying for, playing, and providing ideas and constructive criticism for for eight years.

Seriously.

This just happened.

CLEARLY the reason this thread exists and concessions are being made is that the usage stats on these rapid launchers indicate people's general displeasure with the changes. If the "majority-of-players-who-are-definitely-not-represented-by-Ganthrithor's-views-or-the-views-of-any-other-8000-people-who-don't-favor-these-changes" approved of the 1.0 changes, this thread would not exist. If Rise were at all confident that these proposed 1.1 changes would solve things, he wouldn't be leaving the possibility of "other major changes down the road" on the table.

Kindly find a more acceptable object for your white-knighting, sir.


CCP Rise listened to your feedback and then choose to ignore it. Or are you such a snowflake that you think the Devs have to jump as soon as you click your fingers. Judging from your outcry in this thread so far then I would say that you do indeed think that you are.

I'd rather CCP Rise, who remember already has a track record of producing awesome balance changes, listens to our feedback but then in the end does what he thinks is correct rather than caving in to vocal minorities on the forums.

Also the reason for low usage stats doesn't necessarily mean that CCP Rise came up with a bad concept. Delivering burst damage isn't really something which most everyday PVErs need, these are really designed for small gang and solo PVP it seems to me which would account for the low usage.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#60 - 2014-01-21 16:07:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I posted an update recently in the old rapid missile thread on this topic but I assume many of you haven't been watching that so I'm making a new thread for the time being with some updates for 1.1.

The basic gist is that we aren't satisfied with some of the pain points resulting from the change (especially ammo swapping) and want to continue to iterate until they are in the best possible place. For this patch we weren't able to get in a fix for the ammo swapping. We tried a few versions and all of them had enough issues that we didn't feel comfortable deploying. For 1.1 we are going to do the following:

  • All rapid missile launchers will have 35 second reload timers rather than 40 seconds
  • Rapid Light Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 20 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 19 missiles per magazine for tech 1
  • Rapid Heavy Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 25 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 24 missiles per magazine for tech 1

  • This change is meant to increase their power slightly, and make them feel a little better to use by cutting down the reload time.

    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them, so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months. Large changes are still on the table and I won't be finished with this until we address the ammo swapping issue.

    Thanks for reading and responding




    still pathetic. 20 sec reload (2x normal) or give a much larger charge to warrant longer reload time.

    [u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]