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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#661 - 2014-04-14 12:53:35 UTC
So the current CSM killed rapid launchers. Now we know who not to vote for…

Quote:
Session 9: Ship Balancing
CCP: Fozzie, Rise, Ytterbium, Xhagen
CSM: Ripard Teg, Chitsa Jason, Mangala Solaris, Progodlegend, Malcanis, Mynnna, Sala Cameron, Ali Aras, James Arget, Mike Azariah, Sort Dragon, Korvin, Trebor Daehdoow
Rise opened with a number of quick balance questions, and asked the CSM to vote on them by show of hands (all votes but one yes-no):
Double AB velocity bonus on Sansha ships. CSM response: 11-0
Should Mach/Cynabal get nerfs? 3.5-6.5
Should Nestor have covert cloak (no bridging) 1-10
Should Serpentis Webs be 10% or 7.5%: 7.5 – 2.5, 10 – 8.5
Should we roll back rapid missile changes? 1-10 General consensus that the CSM liked the basic principle, but that the numbers needed tweaking.
Should drone assist be flat capped at 50 to any character: 5.5-3.5

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#662 - 2014-04-21 19:57:50 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So the current CSM killed rapid launchers. Now we know who not to vote for…

Quote:
Session 9: Ship Balancing
CCP: Fozzie, Rise, Ytterbium, Xhagen
CSM: Ripard Teg, Chitsa Jason, Mangala Solaris, Progodlegend, Malcanis, Mynnna, Sala Cameron, Ali Aras, James Arget, Mike Azariah, Sort Dragon, Korvin, Trebor Daehdoow
Rise opened with a number of quick balance questions, and asked the CSM to vote on them by show of hands (all votes but one yes-no):
Double AB velocity bonus on Sansha ships. CSM response: 11-0
Should Mach/Cynabal get nerfs? 3.5-6.5
Should Nestor have covert cloak (no bridging) 1-10
Should Serpentis Webs be 10% or 7.5%: 7.5 – 2.5, 10 – 8.5
Should we roll back rapid missile changes? 1-10 General consensus that the CSM liked the basic principle, but that the numbers needed tweaking.
Should drone assist be flat capped at 50 to any character: 5.5-3.5

I agree with the CSM on this (that really bothers me) - With the numbers tweaked the burst mechanic would be very good..

Reload needs to be no more than 25 seconds (20 seconds would be ideal)
25 missile clip for RLML
30 missile clip for RHML
Damage application bonuses on battleships need to apply (when I load furies using rhml, I want to engage another battleship, not a T2 cruiser or lightly tanked battle cruiser)
Instant type swap when the clip is full.


Problem is - It will never get done.
CCP Rise got the answer he wanted, giving him an out (blame CSM) and no reason to do anything further. At least not in the near future.
Had CSM voted for rollback, CCP Rise would have had to face a choice = Roll back OR Tweak mechanic.

Of course asking the CSM this type of question when they are unable to get feedback from those they purport to represent is not the best way to go if you want valid answers.

CSM never has and never will be representative of the Eve player base and will only ever represent the minority group each belong to. (which by looking at the current group up for election is getting narrower and narrower in focus)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#663 - 2014-04-21 21:35:46 UTC
Yes, that's the problem...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#664 - 2014-04-21 22:23:28 UTC
Every day until I bleed - make rapid launchers work like missile launchers from mechwarrior
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#665 - 2014-04-22 00:02:58 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#666 - 2014-04-22 00:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Heavy missiles were way OP. They got nerfed down to where they are equal to guns. Let's get over that.





Except that a year later all of the other long range medium turrets were buffed to where HMLs used to live. So with the range, damage and application nerfs that heavies kept they are utterly crap compared to beams, rails, and arties.


Rapids are plain untenable. Totally garbage, all of them.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#667 - 2014-04-22 00:18:51 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Rapids are plain untenable. Totally garbage, all of them.

The original rapid lights and first iteration of rapid heavies were awesome. Now, not so much… What they need are reduced reload times (T1 = 30 seconds, T2 = 25 seconds, Faction/Officer = 20 seconds) and a slight buff to ammunition capacity (+25%).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#668 - 2014-04-22 00:23:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Rapids are plain untenable. Totally garbage, all of them.

The original rapid lights and first iteration of rapid heavies were awesome. Now, not so much… What they need are reduced reload times (T1 = 30 seconds, T2 = 25 seconds, Faction/Officer = 20 seconds) and a slight buff to ammunition capacity (+25%).

That and some missile mechanics from this decade and missiles would be in good enough shape for turret pilots to once again flood the forums with tears.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#669 - 2014-04-22 15:48:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Heavy missiles were way OP. They got nerfed down to where they are equal to guns. Let's get over that.





Except that a year later all of the other long range medium turrets were buffed to where HMLs used to live. So with the range, damage and application nerfs that heavies kept they are utterly crap compared to beams, rails, and arties.


Rapids are plain untenable. Totally garbage, all of them.


Not quite. DPS was increased (this was sorely needed) but tracking was reduced. This gives the guns similar (not quite the same) problems in application against moving targets as heavy missiles.

Now I agree that the application problem can in theory be mitigated by kiting and missiles have no similar strategy.
However, medium guns drop off DPS as they go beyond optimal range, while medium missiles do not.

I do accept that a drake can no longer hit at 70km, while a brutix (etc) in theory can. If this is a problem that can't be solved with a Navy Drake (which is built for purpose), then there is an argument that heavy missile launchers could do with a missile type that gives extended range but lower damage (unless you want to rig for more range). I accept that missile ships could do with a range-enhancing low-slot module akin to the tracking enhancer. Probably range-only. One that enhanced range and explosion velocity would start to make missiles OP again.

However, you can't have it both ways: precision T2 missiles hit small fast things in a way that T2 railguns (for example) cannot ever do, even with javelin (which gives the railgun 1/2 the tracking of a neutron blaster at close range).

As a user of both kinds of weapons systems I really can't see a problem - other than the fact that since the drake was (rightfully) nerfed, there is no longer a caldari T1 battlecruiser that can use medium missiles at long ranges to devastating effects. That can now be done with the uber-powerful cruise raven and its even better Navy cousin, which are OP on toast and very under-used in my view.

If you can't bring yourself to use a battleship for long range fights, there is always the Cerberus, Tengu, Navy drake...

For the record, I use missiles on amarr and guristas ships.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#670 - 2014-04-22 19:18:30 UTC
I don't see how being speed tanked by battlecruisers and the odd battleship is even remotely comparable to railguns in deep falloff. When planning for an assault ship what points do we consider? Don't you too find mono damage types to be a bit narrow and penalising - especially on caldari ships which lose 25% of their dps when nit shooting kinetic?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#671 - 2014-04-22 19:31:39 UTC
All that missiles really need is a +25-50% explosion velocity buff so that they can actually do full damage to targets at normal (non-afterburner) speeds.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#672 - 2014-04-22 20:20:19 UTC
That implies certain things about missiles which I don't feel are true. Observe how missiles work best in brawling range with webs on the target. Contrast with turrets which work best while kiting (even in scram range).

So when we find complimentary ships and play styles we observe that
1. medium and large missiles have explosion velocities at 150m/s or lower

and that most ships are faster than this natively except industrial ships.

2. sig radius for missiles is typically under a target of the same size catagory

compare with turrets where if I'm not mistaken they're based on the average sig radius for a given target with armour tanking minmatar being slightly under and most caldari ships being slightly over this turret sig threshold.

3. the damage calculator for missiles favours the comparison of target velocity versus explosion velocity for the purposes of applying damage reductions. When the velocity ratio reaches or exceeds 1 then the formula compares explosion vs target sig radius.

turrets suffer a linear degradation of applied dps due to range as the major fsctor while tracking determines likelihood of a shot landing. A stationary target is treated the same as a moving target only the relative transversals of the two ships really matters for tracking.

those 3 simple thoughts in mind make a rapier/huginn/hyena or any new blood raider ship much more valuable to a missile gang than to turret gang as the velocity of your target dirrctly influences your applied dps while a turret user mostly only needs to orbit within 5% of his optimal. Similarly target painters are of limited utility to turret users unless they're shooting targets significantly smaller than their gun sig resolution - because missile users are highly unlikely to push a target under 200m/s in the first place the influence of sig which is factored second can pretty much be discarded. Turret users are more likely to benefit target painters in situations where they don't have established control of the field and where they're shooting afterburner equipped and/or small targets.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#673 - 2014-04-22 22:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Missiles and drones cause lag, that's why are being nerfed or rebalanced into buggery, I wish ccp would be honest about this and just drop them from the game and replace them with something else that doesn't cause lag, rather than encouraging people not to use them by ensuring that they don't perform at all well.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#674 - 2014-04-23 08:38:58 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
That implies certain things about missiles which I don't feel are true. Observe how missiles work best in brawling range with webs on the target. Contrast with turrets which work best while kiting (even in scram range).

So when we find complimentary ships and play styles we observe that
1. medium and large missiles have explosion velocities at 150m/s or lower

and that most ships are faster than this natively except industrial ships.

2. sig radius for missiles is typically under a target of the same size catagory

compare with turrets where if I'm not mistaken they're based on the average sig radius for a given target with armour tanking minmatar being slightly under and most caldari ships being slightly over this turret sig threshold.

3. the damage calculator for missiles favours the comparison of target velocity versus explosion velocity for the purposes of applying damage reductions. When the velocity ratio reaches or exceeds 1 then the formula compares explosion vs target sig radius.

turrets suffer a linear degradation of applied dps due to range as the major fsctor while tracking determines likelihood of a shot landing. A stationary target is treated the same as a moving target only the relative transversals of the two ships really matters for tracking.

those 3 simple thoughts in mind make a rapier/huginn/hyena or any new blood raider ship much more valuable to a missile gang than to turret gang as the velocity of your target dirrctly influences your applied dps while a turret user mostly only needs to orbit within 5% of his optimal. Similarly target painters are of limited utility to turret users unless they're shooting targets significantly smaller than their gun sig resolution - because missile users are highly unlikely to push a target under 200m/s in the first place the influence of sig which is factored second can pretty much be discarded. Turret users are more likely to benefit target painters in situations where they don't have established control of the field and where they're shooting afterburner equipped and/or small targets.


1. That's fair. Long range missile gangs ought to bring some target painters and rig their ships appropriately.

2. but then there are no rigs to decrease the sig radius of guns.

3. Not quite. turret damage multiplied by (hit_chance - 50% + random(0 to 100%)), capped to 100%, with a small chance of a critical hit. So transversal and range affect not only the hit chance but also the damage applied as well.

You are correct about minmatar recon ships and EA frigates. They are a very powerful force multiplier in a medium range gang. Particularly since they have bonuses for both target painting and webs, which directly help missile application.

After ECM, they should be top of anyone skirmishing gang's target list.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#675 - 2014-04-23 09:58:42 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I don't see how being speed tanked by battlecruisers and the odd battleship is even remotely comparable to railguns in deep falloff. When planning for an assault ship what points do we consider? Don't you too find mono damage types to be a bit narrow and penalising - especially on caldari ships which lose 25% of their dps when nit shooting kinetic?




You know that damage types are a racial thing right? That supposedly the only race that shoudl have some varaibility isminmatar. And even so they have ONLY on t1 ammo .

Caldari still ahve more damage type variability than amarr or gallente, so stop hitting that key.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#676 - 2014-04-23 11:41:42 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


If you can't bring yourself to use a battleship for long range fights, there is always the Cerberus, Tengu, Navy drake...

For the record, I use missiles on amarr and guristas ships.


You know the Navy Drake is only a decent sniper with 1 Missile type (Navies) and then only with a booster in fleet to allow it to hit past 75k?
As far as Missile Battleships may work in WH space pvp, unless your in a sizable fleet they are generally more likely to end up fodder in known space. With the exception of lowsec gate camps (smart bombing Raven is quite common) where the target rarely gets to shoot back.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#677 - 2014-04-23 22:14:43 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


If you can't bring yourself to use a battleship for long range fights, there is always the Cerberus, Tengu, Navy drake...

For the record, I use missiles on amarr and guristas ships.


You know the Navy Drake is only a decent sniper with 1 Missile type (Navies) and then only with a booster in fleet to allow it to hit past 75k?
As far as Missile Battleships may work in WH space pvp, unless your in a sizable fleet they are generally more likely to end up fodder in known space. With the exception of lowsec gate camps (smart bombing Raven is quite common) where the target rarely gets to shoot back.


I suggest you try a pair of navy ravens with cruise, MJD and target painters. Your opponents will lose a lot of ships trying to catch you...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#678 - 2014-04-23 23:26:45 UTC
Be interesting to see if people fit them to the new Rattlesnake.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#679 - 2014-04-23 23:42:24 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


If you can't bring yourself to use a battleship for long range fights, there is always the Cerberus, Tengu, Navy drake...

For the record, I use missiles on amarr and guristas ships.


You know the Navy Drake is only a decent sniper with 1 Missile type (Navies) and then only with a booster in fleet to allow it to hit past 75k?
As far as Missile Battleships may work in WH space pvp, unless your in a sizable fleet they are generally more likely to end up fodder in known space. With the exception of lowsec gate camps (smart bombing Raven is quite common) where the target rarely gets to shoot back.


I suggest you try a pair of navy ravens with cruise, MJD and target painters. Your opponents will lose a lot of ships trying to catch you...

Honestly I wouldn't go roaming anywhere with a couple of Ravens, Especially Navy Ravens and 2 of my toons have great missile skills and Caldari Battleship 5.
I might use them if I lived in WH space and could pick the engagements I took them to. Unfortunately that is not something that occurs often where I live.

You really don't believe a Navy Raven with MJD is going to be able to outrun the most common ship in known space Pvp, Interceptor?

With max skill, 9's spool up time 180 sec reactivation - Doesn't take long to cover 90k in a ceptor and apply scram. That is only if you get to activate the MJD before being scrammed, if not, you die a lot faster. Fill your drone bay with Warrior ll's you may stand a better chance.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#680 - 2014-04-28 23:20:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Caldari still ahve more damage type variability than amarr or gallente, so stop hitting that key.



Once you pass BC IV there is basically no point in ever loading anything except kinetic (also applies to tengu) whatever damage you make up in resistance holes you pay back in damage that you plain aren't doing.