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i agree that Scorch needs some serious adjustment, but it does not outperform medium rails with AM at medium range. Pulse Zealot gets about 430dps at around 50km with a bunch of TE's and heatsinks in lows (tracking would need to get nerfed, and dps slightly), whereas a properly fit rail boat gets about 500dps up to 30km or so (without drones).

either buff Spike damage, or nerf Scorch dmg slightly and decrease tracking. for medium guns anyway. Scorch L needs more serious nerfing. it's nuts.

and I agree, the Brutix (as well as the Deimos) is still a joke. it's way too slow, has a ****** tank, and mediocre dps with a decent tank. furthermore, rails are competely incompatible with it, i.e. u cant fit them, cant do decent dps with em.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, or what your definition of a 'properly fit rail boat' is.

Post-Crucible, a max-skilled Deimos with 250mm rails, 3 MFS's and and 2 TEs (so a paper-thin sniper, which it's actually quite good at, bizarrely) will do 446dps at 23km optimal with faction AM. Show me a non-faction, non-T3 hybrid platform that can do that any better.

But you are right, sort of. All other things being equal, upper-tier rails (150s, 250s and 425s) with faction AM have very much the same dps and optimal as upper-tier Pulse with Scorch. However, this ignores the fact that upper-tier rails are incredibly difficult to fit to anything except dedicated paper-thin sniper fits, such as the aforementioned Deimos (your Proteus does not count). Middle-tier railguns are far more popular options (at least on Gallente ships) because of these fitting issues.

Slot layouts and ship bonuses also come into it. Compare two fleet battleships: the Mega Pulse Abaddon, and the 425 rail Megathron (I know they're different tiers, but they are role equivalents - the Hyperion is not a fleet battleship). The Abaddon can easily fit two heat sinks and still have a fearsome amount of armour buffer. But the Megathron (which is disadvantaged to start with by only having 7 turret hardpoints) has serious CPU problems, and usually only has room for a single damage mod after you've fitted it with even a lacklustre tank. That opens up a significant difference in damage at mid-range (also consider that the Abaddon can fit 2 TCs. The Mega can only fit 1 unless it sacrifices resists). Of course the Mega has more drone space and bandwidth, but in the vast majority of mid-ranged battleship engagements, drones are of minimal use. The difference in performance between the two at medium range (scorch/AM) is greater than I feel the difference in tiers and price justifies.

So, your definition of a 'properly fit rail boat' is a Proteus? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you look comparing that to anything other than another T3?

I'm not denying the Deimos sucks in its intended role, as a close-range blaster brawler. But you were talking about rails. Post-crucible, the Deimos will actually be a very desirable alternative to a beam-fit sniper Zealot.

EDIT:

ANYWAY, my point was that there are no realistic and viable rail gun fits that can rival Scorch at mid-range. You agree with me, so stop making us both look like idiots by creating an argument out of nothing.

It's a T3. STFU.

damn straight it's viable. the posted fit is excellent, for maxed dps. considering that a rail fit was never viable on the Proteus, this is probably the first public rail fit on the internets so deal.

replace a tracking comp with a disruptor for kiting, Gardes with Valks. replace AB with mwd if youre not gonna be in an armor HAC gang with logi support. replace hybrid rigs with t2 trimarks if you want another 50k EHP. replace T2 with faction if you can afford to lose, and done. now stretch your epeen somewhere else. this is a feedback thread. i'll leave Battleclinic to you and the rest of EFT warriors, because thats probably all you know how to do.

Unless it's in the context of saying "rails are so hard to fit, the only way I can make them work is on a 500m ISK Tech 3 cruiser", I don't want to read any more about your Proteus. Kindly stop derailing the thread.

Only fully agree with the bolded part.

I've been looking into a lot of potential fits with this buff and to be honest, although it is still very conservative, hybrids seem okay. Although medium rails still feel very underpowered.

The biggest issue now I believe is first; the hulls they fit on, and second; the useless ammo. As I've said before, decent versatile ammo is what we need next. And this is what I would love to see:-

2x Short range high damage offering damage choice within the guns limitations
Antimatter (Short rng Thermal) : Remains as is High Thermal low Kinetic damage
Lead (Short rng Kinetic) : As AM with hi kinetic low Thermal

2x short to mid range "Specialised" ammo
Uranium (Short rng Hi RoF) : +50% Rof -50% dmg -25% optimal -25% falloff
Plutonium (Short rng Hi tracking) : -25% optimal & falloff +10% tracking low dmg

2x Mid range ammo catering for both Gallente and Caldari hulls
Thorium (Hi falloff low optimal) : +50% Falloff
Iridium (Hi optimal Low falloff) : +50% Optimal

2x Long range ammo. One for sniping (unless you have alpha you can't really snipe) and the other for extreme long range.
Tungsten (Sniper/Alpha low RoF) : +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal & falloff +75% Cap use
Iron (Extreme long range) : +60% Optimal & fall off

And something similar for energy turrets:-

2x Short range high damage offering damage choice within the guns limitations
Multifrequency (short range EM) : Remains as is except high EM low Thermal
Infra-red (Short rng Thermal) : As MF but with hi thermal damage

2x "Specialised" short to mid range ammo
Gamma (short range hi RoF) : +50% RoF -50% Damage -50% optimal
X-Ray (Short Range hi tracking) : -50% optimal +10% tracking low dmg

2x Mid range ammo
Ultraviolet (Mid range Mid dmg) : +25% optimal
Standard (V.Low Cap Use Mid Rng) : +25% optimal -50% cap use -20% damage

2x Long range ammo. One for sniping (unless you have alpha you can't really snipe) and the other for extreme long range.
Microwave (Sniper/Alpha low RoF) : +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal +75% Cap use
Radio (Extreme long range) : +60% optimal

t3's and pirate hulls for the win

you are a poor bad that should stop typing

Giving dedicated blaster bouts a drone bonus is the most ******** idea i ever heared of.
Drones are terrible for pvp. Killing a single small baby drone of your bunch will make all other 4 small baby drones entirely useless again. Do never ever rely on them. Most heartbreaking point on this web drone bonus idea is the loss of some other bonus on a ship not designed for drone usage. If you want to do a webbing job use a module designed for webbing or do put this bonus on a ship where it belongs to..... a drone boat with a hughe drone bay and not in need to hope that the bunch of drones ALL do survive.

It's like giving the eos a bonus like "needs less jumpfuel while using enemy jump bridges"
Combat Gun ships are no viable drone platforms and that is good !


Yes i can use drones, yes i like them and i will use them but i won't rely on them for my survival.

i do rely on things like:
cap boosters,
power neutralizers,
stasis webifiers,
mwd

umm no?

drones in pvp can be quite formidable

everything used in a proper context has a place in pvp.