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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1141 - 2011-11-24 06:07:30 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Bomberlocks wrote:


- HACs: Gallente now have two very competive HACS in the Deimos with the speed/agilty/fitting improvements and the Ishtar, which can chase off the Vagabond with ease. Caldari only have one (Eagle's role has been usurped by Naga)



you are indeed smoking something strong. the Deimos remains the worst HAC in the game. it is overshadowed by the pulse Zealot in every single situation. rails are incompatible with the way Deimos is.

the Vigilant is not OP in anyway, neither is any blaster boat in the game. Vigi's and Vindi's will remain (mostly) pretty killmails.

i do agree, the Cynabal is ridiculous, and the Tengu needs some serious nerfing because it's the only cruiser that can faceroll through any pve or pvp situation without any risk.



Not that I'm a huge fan of Missiles myself but I think mybe you should fix them for PVP before nerfing the only good non-EW ship that race realy has.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1142 - 2011-11-24 06:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Here's a very simple, and maybe pervasive final thought for you all to chew on.

Maybe our glass cannons shouldn't be made out of glass?

We fight in the danger zone, yet we are successfully primaried and neutralised long before we actually start laying down the pain.

Outwardly we exclaim and boast about this suicidal nature, but in reality surviviblity is the #1 factor in ship choices, from std missle crows from 2005, to hml drake, abaddons with artillary and the dying embers of the nano age (aka angel).

Drone boats deal with all size classes with utility and arnt completely useless whilst jammed or neuted. And while some are more left field than others, with out realising it every suggestion on how to boost blasters revolves around how do I reduce risk.

If you do not look at the problem "what is the Hybrids Survival stratergy?", your solution will be wrong.


Exactly my point.

A Null falloff buff (at least for medium ammo, I don't know that its necessary for larges [which can already be made to do good dps at range] or smalls [which go on ships that are meant to go into knife-fighting range]), would really make blaster-using Cruisers a more viable option for PvP. Cruisers having to get really close to their targets just kills their survivability.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1143 - 2011-11-24 06:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Also, the Cynabal isn't too ridiculous-- it's like a marginally improved Vagabond that does less dps. It's very fast and agile and has a few k more ehp, but it trades some damage output to do it and it's highly cap-unstable. Any master baiter with a heavy neut or any gang with tackle-recons can make short work of a Cynabal.

Also, Rip Minner, why do you hate hybrids so much? I'm genuinely curious why you keep trying to push drones over hybrids for Gallente. Pretty much everyone hates drones-- they're bad for PvP (they can get blown up easily, they take forever to get on target, lots of them have tracking issues, etc), I think I remember hearing they're bad for the server (in terms of lag), and CCP has never been able to get their code working quite right.

e: redacted

Come to think of it, looking at this dps graph, maybe a buff to Null optimal range would be best-- this would allow blasters to out-track and out-dps autocannons out to ~25-30km, but would ensure that blaster damage drops off precipitously beyond that range, while autocannons' high falloff will keep their dps advantage at longer ranges. It wouldn't take much of a buff to shift the DPS curve for the blasters over a bit-- maybe so that the curves cross at ~28km instead of 20 (with 2 tracking enhancers)? A change like this would just make cruisers like the Deimos, Vigilant and Proteus so much more useful for PvP.

e2: Holy crap, I just noticed the dissolution sequencer actually adds drones to the Proteus. Nevermind, it's actually pretty good. I take back what I said about the Proteus. Null M could still use some range-love though.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#1144 - 2011-11-24 08:50:52 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:

What we have now is a start. After Crucible come out, I will definitely be doing further balancing.
Here are some of the things relating to hybrid ships that we will be looking further into in the coming weeks/months:

* Further tweaking of individual ships.
* Tech II ammo needs a better look at, especially Null-Scorch-Barrage.
* Active tanking vs passive tanking. And by extension, armor tanking vs shield tanking.
* Small and Medium Webifier drones.
* Give tech I hybrid ammo variations for each range, like projectile ammo. Maybe the same for lasers.
* Something to help blaster ships get into range. There are several good suggestions on how to do this; Webifier range bonus, MWD speed bonus, change the armor rig penalty, increase base speed or even a new type of module. We might do some of them, all of them or something completely different.

p.s. I have also updated the OP with the final list of changes.


Awesome. Thank you... and sounds very good.

A few notes on that list:

- I really hope "tweaking of individual ships" includes a look at the poor Eos. It's by far the worst of the fleet commands (part of this has to do with the not-that-impressive inforwar gang links when compared to the other gang link types). For example, even after the patch it cannot fit 3 x gang link, guns, mwd and 1600mm plate without a grid module/rig. Compare to Damnation, which has absolutely no trouble fitting anything it likes.

- Sensor Damps need a looking at. They are seriously subpar, even on ships that get bonuses on them.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1145 - 2011-11-24 09:18:23 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Here is a very simple and maybe pervasive final thought for you all to chew on also.

Maybe Hybirds should not be as good as Projectiles and Lazers.

Maybe just maybe Hybirds are fine and drones on drone ships should be boosted to the same levels as projectiles and lazers.

And maybe just maybe are ships need looked at and reworked as well.


If hybrids are made inferior to projectiles and lasers, then the hybrid-using ships need innate hull advantages to make up for that inferiority elsewhere. Something like speed, sig, scan res or agility maybe... oh.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1146 - 2011-11-24 10:03:59 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Bomberlocks wrote:


- HACs: Gallente now have two very competive HACS in the Deimos with the speed/agilty/fitting improvements and the Ishtar, which can chase off the Vagabond with ease. Caldari only have one (Eagle's role has been usurped by Naga)



you are indeed smoking something strong. the Deimos remains the worst HAC in the game. it is overshadowed by the pulse Zealot in every single situation. rails are incompatible with the way Deimos is.

the Vigilant is not OP in anyway, neither is any blaster boat in the game. Vigi's and Vindi's will remain (mostly) pretty killmails.

i do agree, the Cynabal is ridiculous, and the Tengu needs some serious nerfing because it's the only cruiser that can faceroll through any pve or pvp situation without any risk.

he is just another matar noob who has no clue about pvp, his posts are full of bs , and fictions ... total fail this bomberlocks is
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1147 - 2011-11-24 10:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
I'm really hesitating to say buff null falloff/optimal without a lot of testing. it is a dangerous part to touch , maybe 10% would be ok but I'd like to see that in a test enviroment first. Amarr could be doomed with gallente tracking post patch + a hughe falloff change.

I prefer more some form of changes for modules which apply no damage but make sure enemy is not untouchable within the 20-30 km range.

-improving web range bonus on some ships
or/and
-Increase dampener usefullness (makes enemy to get closer)

Furthermore touching speed sounds not that harmfull as touching ammo or weapons once again.


A Microjumpdrive is a pain to implement.
Just think about the restrictions it would surely get

- massive "where "restriction
- massive "when" restriction
- massive "reuse" restriction
- massive "range" restriction
- massive "who" restriction

and surely one less of our limited med slots.

It looks like a sounds good on paper idea for me. In a combat enviroment it will be eighter overpowered or it will be prenerfed like a black ops.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1148 - 2011-11-24 11:24:19 UTC
Perhaps active tanking ships should get a joint bonus for repairer effectiveness and cap usage? Not an answer in itself to the problem, but it would allow a bit more tanking while you try to mwd into range rather than mwding into range and being cap dead before you even activate your guns?

And welcome back CCP Tallest. If I might be so bold as to suggest; If someone like yourself has ownership of an issue like this, and in the cause of better communication, if you happen to be going away for a significant period of time perhaps you could post as much in the thread before you go? The frustration from an apparent lack of dev interest was bad for the health of everyone with an interest in this matter Oops
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1149 - 2011-11-24 11:29:54 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
As you may have noticed, I have been afk for the last week or so.
I am back at work now and will try to address the concerns that have been expressed while I was away.

As Soundwave and Affinity have explained for me in my absence, the cutoff date for changes that make it into the Crucible expansion has already passed (and had already passed when I went away).

As it turned out, I only had time to do one extra pass on the changes after they hit SISI. These changes (to the changes) were based on your feedback from this thread. There were many other suggestions here that I would love to do, but didn't have enough time to do them properly for this release. In the future, I will make sure that I have more time to make changes based on your feedback. The feedback that you was posted after the cutoff is far from worthless. I've read every single post and written down notes for future reference.

What we have now is a start. After Crucible come out, I will definitely be doing further balancing.
Here are some of the things relating to hybrid ships that we will be looking further into in the coming weeks/months:

* Further tweaking of individual ships.
* Tech II ammo needs a better look at, especially Null-Scorch-Barrage.
* Active tanking vs passive tanking. And by extension, armor tanking vs shield tanking.
* Small and Medium Webifier drones.
* Give tech I hybrid ammo variations for each range, like projectile ammo. Maybe the same for lasers.
* Something to help blaster ships get into range. There are several good suggestions on how to do this; Webifier range bonus, MWD speed bonus, change the armor rig penalty, increase base speed or even a new type of module. We might do some of them, all of them or something completely different.

p.s. I have also updated the OP with the final list of changes.

Tallest: May I make one small suggestion: Don't make any hasty changes until the current changes have settled in. There will be a period of transition as the more timid players take to the new ships and fittings and the better, bolder players make inventive and effective fits for them. This will take six months or so. Don't rush it, please.


totally agree there is no point to overbuff a weapon system just because some people want it, the only result is to make those people happy with theyir new op weapon and make all the others cry on forum because the new weapon its OP.
the new changes are enough for a start people will try to use blaster just to test them if they like they will be used more often if in 6 month people still don use them we need another look at it.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1150 - 2011-11-24 11:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Btw how these testings are done?
1v1? or what cause that is the least what tq is about.

To mare: why to wait 6 months when many ppl already say these changes are not enough?? and the rest says ( oh wait and lets see) see what? That blaster ships still slower than ac's and dont realy have any advantage to compensate and rail ships are still totally underpowered ,due to missing a role.
So pls tell me , what why should another balance wait for another 6 months? ppl will somehow realize new tactics for the blasters? hardly as those cant do anything better than the ac ships , or some miracle will make them better ?

As we can already see , large changes every 1-2 years dont work, but with smaller changes you have to do it frequent like every 2 months or so.
Shaak Ti
Star.Men
Fraternity.
#1151 - 2011-11-24 12:43:54 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
good stuff


Glad you are back, I hope you take a look also to the capital ships. By the look of the quick tweaks and messages, looks like you didn't really care about feedback.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1152 - 2011-11-24 14:25:48 UTC
GET THE FUkK OUT OF THE HYBRID THREAD YOU MOTHERSHIP FLYING ******
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1153 - 2011-11-24 15:06:46 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Also, the Cynabal isn't too ridiculous-- it's like a marginally improved Vagabond that does less dps.


nah, it is. the Cynabal is really fast and has one hell of a shield buffer, while retaining most of the Vaga's dps. this is why the Vaga is not used any longer.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1154 - 2011-11-24 15:16:14 UTC
So guys I think its all with Hybrids. CCP changed anything just tweaks. So thank you guys for discussion. I'm hoping that We will meet in better balanced game !

Take care !
Over and Out
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#1155 - 2011-11-24 15:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Someone mentioned the uninspiring command bonuses of the Eos. Here's an idea: move the Interdiction Manoeuvres (point/web range) warfare link out of the Skirmish Warfare category and into the Information Warfare category. This would complement Gallente ships quite well, since long-range warp jamming is Gallente's thing and web range is often called for as a means to buff blaster boats.

The link could either replace or be merged with Recon Operation (which increases range of EWar modules), and Skirmish Warfare could get a new kind of link to replace it (agility? tracking?).
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1156 - 2011-11-24 15:36:57 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Here's a very simple, and maybe pervasive final thought for you all to chew on.

Maybe our glass cannons shouldn't be made out of glass?

We fight in the danger zone, yet we are successfully primaried and neutralised long before we actually start laying down the pain.

Outwardly we exclaim and boast about this suicidal nature, but in reality surviviblity is the #1 factor in ship choices, from std missle crows from 2005, to hml drake, abaddons with artillary and the dying embers of the nano age (aka angel).

Drone boats deal with all size classes with utility and arnt completely useless whilst jammed or neuted. And while some are more left field than others, with out realising it every suggestion on how to boost blasters revolves around how do I reduce risk.

If you do not look at the problem "what is the Hybrids Survival stratergy?", your solution will be wrong.



Here is a very simple and maybe pervasive final thought for you all to chew on also.

Maybe Hybirds should not be as good as Projectiles and Lazers.

Maybe just maybe Hybirds are fine and drones on drone ships should be boosted to the same levels as projectiles and lazers.

And maybe just maybe are ships need looked at and reworked as well.

Changes to ship hulls, bonuses and slots will absolutely be part of the solution.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1157 - 2011-11-24 15:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Archare
rant

Hrm... It's funny seeing so many people that seem to be afraid that their current role will be encroached upon come out of the woodwork. Well to put it simply yes that can and will happen if blasters are made effective. If they can finally perform a role which isn't overshadowed by the fact that other ships/weapons can do them nearly as well or better then that will be a direct or indirect nerf to the capabilities of the other systems. If you think the current changes are enough and that people should "wait and see", then obviously you're either just lying to yourself or afraid of changes to the balance of power. If these changes were enough the markets in Eve would have adjusted considering the changes have been out for 2 weeks now. As it stands the only thing we'll see is more than likely an outcry that blaster frigates are too powerful so everything should be nerfed.

/rant

anyways glad to see gallente ammo being looked at so there's more options than faction AM and null. Stasis webs drones at first sound like "wow cool I can load them on my brutix!" until you realize almost every cruiser sized ship and above will be able to use them which means the range disparity gap increases even further for blaster boats. I hope that CCP will be willing to make changes to the game and make it so deciding what ship to fly is actually hard since there will too many good options. Also could we get a time frame on when further adjustments would be made?
M1AU
Zappenduster Inc.
#1158 - 2011-11-24 16:31:51 UTC
Archare wrote:
rant

Hrm... It's funny seeing so many people that seem to be afraid that their current role will be encroached upon come out of the woodwork. Well to put it simply yes that can and will happen if blasters are made effective. If they can finally perform a role which isn't overshadowed by the fact that other ships/weapons can do them nearly as well or better then that will be a direct or indirect nerf to the capabilities of the other systems. If you think the current changes are enough and that people should "wait and see", then obviously you're either just lying to yourself or afraid of changes to the balance of power. If these changes were enough the markets in Eve would have adjusted considering the changes have been out for 2 weeks now. As it stands the only thing we'll see is more than likely an outcry that blaster frigates are too powerful so everything should be nerfed.

/rant

anyways glad to see gallente ammo being looked at so there's more options than faction AM and null. Stasis webs drones at first sound like "wow cool I can load them on my brutix!" until you realize almost every cruiser sized ship and above will be able to use them which means the range disparity gap increases even further for blaster boats. I hope that CCP will be willing to make changes to the game and make it so deciding what ship to fly is actually hard since there will too many good options. Also could we get a time frame on when further adjustments would be made?


If I think about it loudly, a Brutix with a Bonus to Webifier Drones in addition to the Hybrid Weapon Damage bonus could probably work.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1159 - 2011-11-24 16:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Here's a very simple, and maybe pervasive final thought for you all to chew on.

Maybe our glass cannons shouldn't be made out of glass?

We fight in the danger zone, yet we are successfully primaried and neutralised long before we actually start laying down the pain.

Outwardly we exclaim and boast about this suicidal nature, but in reality surviviblity is the #1 factor in ship choices, from std missle crows from 2005, to hml drake, abaddons with artillary and the dying embers of the nano age (aka angel).

Drone boats deal with all size classes with utility and arnt completely useless whilst jammed or neuted. And while some are more left field than others, with out realising it every suggestion on how to boost blasters revolves around how do I reduce risk.

If you do not look at the problem "what is the Hybrids Survival stratergy?", your solution will be wrong.


Agreed. Its too easy to shut down Gallente ships with neuts and webs, and their tank isn't the best which doesn't help. I think an interesting change to Gallente would be an eWAR "resistance", reducing the effect of webs, painters etc. Currently the blaster philosophy is seriously flawed when it comes to larger ships. With frigates, additional tracking on blasters is definitely a plus, but once you get to cruisers and above: what good is tracking? Everything within your blaster range is within scram, neut, and web range. How is 37.5% additional tracking going to benefit a blaster Megathron when both him and his target are webbed down? Sure, it might make it easier to hit battlecruisers and below, but a web+scram makes anything slow enough for a battleship to hit (save long range weapons)

Blaster boats should be the pitbulls of EVE: once they latch on, you aren't getting them off until they're dead or you're dead. WIth an eWAR resistance change, a blaster brutix will run circles around a hurricane if they are both webbed, but it doesn't give the Brutix a free escape card, and can quite possibly get close enough to the hurricane to get under its tracking.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't mean that *every* Gallente ship should get a bonus like this, but perhaps change over the armor repairing bonus to this.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#1160 - 2011-11-24 16:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Some more general points about balancing hybrids and hybrid ships against other weapons and other ships:

Guns:

- Scorch, Barrage and Null all need adjusting. The range of Scorch is fine, as it fits the combat philosophy of Amarr. But it should pay for it more heavily in terms of both tracking and damage output. At the moment, scorch significantly outperforms rails with antimatter at the same middle ranges. As for Barrage, its falloff bonus just needs to be toned down a bit, to something like 40% instead of 50%. Null ought to allow high-tier blaster-fit cruisers a realistic option of fighting outside of scram range, but not much further out than that. To that end, it needs greater optimal range, maybe at the cost of some falloff.

- The short-range end of the hybrid ammo spectrum still needs more damage. Blasters need to melt face, and rails need to be viable options in mid-range engagements.

- Autocannons are simply far too easy to fit. Winmatar is no joke.

Ships:

- I really urge you to not mess around with new modules or unique abilities for blaster boats to help them get into range. New modules would just benefit Winmatar kiters even more than at present, and unique abilties (not to be confused with bonuses) for one subsection of one race's ships would be game-breaking. Rebalancing should be limited to tweaking numbers and changing bonuses.

- A small MWD speed bonus would be more useful to the Thorax and Deimos than reduced capacitor penalty. About 10-15% more cap should compensate for the lost bonus.

- The Deimos needs a lot more powergrid. Even with the lower fitting requirements of hybrids, it still won't have enough PG to fit a rack of Neutrons, MWD and 1600mm plate, even with TWO(!) ACR rigs. That's before you even try to put anything in the utility highslot. 12% more powergrid and 3% more CPU would be fair (this would allow for Neutrons, medium Nos, 1600 plate and MWD with two ACR rigs).

- Active tanking bonuses on the Brutix, Myrm and Hyp could do with being changed to a twin bonus to cycle time and cap use. Same net effect, but much more useful in practice. There might be a case for a net boost to the bonus as well. Both the Brutix and Hyperion need a significant boost to powergrid to make proper use of both of their bonuses.

- After the Crucible changes, the Brutix is still just too slow (even without plates or armour rigs). It's also very limited by only having 5 lowslots. Increasing that to 6 would give 17 slots in total, which is not without precedent for a tier 1 battlecruiser (the Cyclone already has 17). While we're on that subject, the Prophecy and Ferox could each do with an upgrade and additional fitting slot as well.

. The Brutix and the Hyperion are probably ideal ships to have high straight-line top speed but relatively low agility, as many have suggested. Just think of the amount of thrust those massive engines should generate! This would require no reworking of bonuses.

- Changing armour rig penalties to something other than speed (agility?), or just reducing the penalty, would be a very good thing for Gallente. Armour tanked Minmatar ships are not the reason they're called Winmatar, so a consequential boost to those fits is not a reason to avoid doing this.

That's all for now. More when I think of it.