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[Rubicon 1.1] Capital Turret Tracking Changes in Conjunction with Heat Iteration

First post First post
Author
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#221 - 2014-01-17 13:14:36 UTC
Rammix wrote:
And I want to add: we operate with endless numbers of hits only on paper. In practice, number of hits is limited and is relatively low. So out of 30 cycles you may happen to hit only 5 times even with 50% chance of hit.


And it's equally likely that you'd hit 25 times. What's your point?
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#222 - 2014-01-17 13:17:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed


Neither TCs or TPs are getting nerfed. We decided against the change to TP base strength and there was never a nerf to TCs in these changes so I don't know where you got that idea from.


Great. You've shown you CAN get something right.

Now, how about scrapping the rest of your proposed changes, and start from the viewpoint of "what changes can I make that will benefit the gaming experience of the most players".

I can absolutely guarantee you that what you currently have fails that test completely.

Rammix
TheMurk
#223 - 2014-01-17 13:20:42 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed, so fits with mix of such modules are getting severely nerfed: you can overheat 3-5 modules simultaneously only for a very short period of time.


Tracking Computers and Target Painters have their base efficiency untouched, and they gain the ability to overheat. This is a up not a nerf.

Ok, my mistake.
But read this again:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

This means tracking will be 5% down vs current TQ values when not overheating any TCs, about 2% down when overheating one T2 TC, and about 1.5% up when overheating two T2 TCs.

+1.5% with 2 overheated modules is not a boost, 2 modules of 4-5 active won't let to use overheat adequately. Overheating modules which are meant to be active for very long periods - is absurd.

Altrue wrote:

Rammix wrote:
Also, in pvp players often come very close to the limits of ship and module stats. 5% changes - ARE serious.

Yeah say that to my +0.88 align time crow. That's around a 20% increase :D.
You capital pilots are able to blap things out of existence without any chance of landing rep on them and you're whining for a 5% nerf in tracking. Yet you are also given the ability to increase said tracking by 2% (from now, ~7% from base tracking post patch) when needed.

Increase by 2% for several seconds? Ridiculous.

BTW interceptor agility nerf is another idiotic change. Some nobrainers can't figure out what to do (though it is simple enough) and other nobrainers nerf ships to help the 1st ones.

"Capital pilots blap things" - it's not the fault of capships, it's the fault of victims that they allow turtles to hit them. Do you really want to adjust eve to capabilities of lamers?

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Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#224 - 2014-01-17 13:21:42 UTC
Rammix wrote:
And I want to add: we operate with endless numbers of hits only on paper. In practice, number of hits is limited and is relatively low. So out of 30 cycles you may happen to hit only 5 times even with 50% chance of hit.


Indeed you may. The probability of this happening is about 1 in 6000, but it will happen occasionally.
Rammix
TheMurk
#225 - 2014-01-17 13:28:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Rammix wrote:
And I want to add: we operate with endless numbers of hits only on paper. In practice, number of hits is limited and is relatively low. So out of 30 cycles you may happen to hit only 5 times even with 50% chance of hit.


And it's equally likely that you'd hit 25 times. What's your point?

My point is that numbers on paper are good for general analisys but shouldn't be used as an absolute truth to rely upon while doing stuff in "reality". In reality there are always more factors than on paper, some of them are subjective.

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Rammix
TheMurk
#226 - 2014-01-17 13:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Rammix wrote:
And I want to add: we operate with endless numbers of hits only on paper. In practice, number of hits is limited and is relatively low. So out of 30 cycles you may happen to hit only 5 times even with 50% chance of hit.


Indeed you may. The probability of this happening is about 1 in 6000, but it will happen occasionally.

The numbers were chosen just for illustration.

edit
P.s. instead of multiposting.
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed


Neither TCs or TPs are getting nerfed. We decided against the change to TP base strength and there was never a nerf to TCs in these changes so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Chose an obvious mistake to reply to? How about 13 pages of disapproval?

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2014-01-17 13:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Khan Farshatok wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So in one day you've managed to nerf TP's and capital turrets. Your making bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Your player base has told you what needs fixed, what needs looked at, and what doesn't need to be in the game at all. Yet you insist on adding unneeded and unwanted changes. Then you have the gaul to ask why your subscription base is dwindling?

You nerf the crap out of missiles, then a few expansions later nerf the missile boats, now it's the TP...another missile nerf.

You nerfed dreads a few expansions ago turning the Phoenix into an even more worthless heap. Now you nerf the rest of the dreads to bring the Phoenix back up to snuff but then nerf the TP at the same time effectively nerfing the Phoenix even more. Bad ideas are bad ideas CCP. These are all bad ideas. Fix what's broken and maybe you'll quit bleeding players from the game.



honestly ive considered quiting the game my self. ccp have been ruining the game i have fallen in love with. if ccp fozzie doesnt respond with a comment telling us they are scrapping this dread nerf then my consideration to quit will be drastically increased. there are many many other games i can play to keep my self entertained and not have the stress of trying to fc morons or lead an alliance. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Did you ran any graphs before stating that? Do it. .the 5% reduction have only minor results when engaging intended targets at intended ranges. Close range weapons still can track perfectly carriers and the long range ones can do it still very well as long at you are over 60 km away.

You can still hit battleships reasonably well. 5% is a SMALL change, nothing ruined.

Consider the main weapon being used agaisnt dreads are being nerfed WAY more (sentries) and you have nothign to complain.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rammix
TheMurk
#228 - 2014-01-17 13:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Khan Farshatok wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So in one day you've managed to nerf TP's and capital turrets. Your making bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Your player base has told you what needs fixed, what needs looked at, and what doesn't need to be in the game at all. Yet you insist on adding unneeded and unwanted changes. Then you have the gaul to ask why your subscription base is dwindling?

You nerf the crap out of missiles, then a few expansions later nerf the missile boats, now it's the TP...another missile nerf.

You nerfed dreads a few expansions ago turning the Phoenix into an even more worthless heap. Now you nerf the rest of the dreads to bring the Phoenix back up to snuff but then nerf the TP at the same time effectively nerfing the Phoenix even more. Bad ideas are bad ideas CCP. These are all bad ideas. Fix what's broken and maybe you'll quit bleeding players from the game.



honestly ive considered quiting the game my self. ccp have been ruining the game i have fallen in love with. if ccp fozzie doesnt respond with a comment telling us they are scrapping this dread nerf then my consideration to quit will be drastically increased. there are many many other games i can play to keep my self entertained and not have the stress of trying to fc morons or lead an alliance. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Did you ran any graphs before stating that? Do it. .the 5% reduction have only minor results when engaging intended targets at intended ranges. Close range weapons still can track perfectly carriers and the long range ones can do it still very well as long at you are over 60 km away.

You can still hit battleships reasonably well. 5% is a SMALL change, nothing ruined.

Consider the main weapon being used agaisnt dreads are being nerfed WAY more (sentries) and you have nothign to complain.

Ignoring that 5% is not small change,
WHY nerf dred tracking? What's the reasoning? It must be serious, because there are too many supers out there so nerf of dreds (which can lead to decrease in their popularity) should [edit: must] have a very strong reasoning behind it.

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Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2014-01-17 13:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Rammix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Khan Farshatok wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So in one day you've managed to nerf TP's and capital turrets. Your making bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Your player base has told you what needs fixed, what needs looked at, and what doesn't need to be in the game at all. Yet you insist on adding unneeded and unwanted changes. Then you have the gaul to ask why your subscription base is dwindling?

You nerf the crap out of missiles, then a few expansions later nerf the missile boats, now it's the TP...another missile nerf.

You nerfed dreads a few expansions ago turning the Phoenix into an even more worthless heap. Now you nerf the rest of the dreads to bring the Phoenix back up to snuff but then nerf the TP at the same time effectively nerfing the Phoenix even more. Bad ideas are bad ideas CCP. These are all bad ideas. Fix what's broken and maybe you'll quit bleeding players from the game.



honestly ive considered quiting the game my self. ccp have been ruining the game i have fallen in love with. if ccp fozzie doesnt respond with a comment telling us they are scrapping this dread nerf then my consideration to quit will be drastically increased. there are many many other games i can play to keep my self entertained and not have the stress of trying to fc morons or lead an alliance. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



Did you ran any graphs before stating that? Do it. .the 5% reduction have only minor results when engaging intended targets at intended ranges. Close range weapons still can track perfectly carriers and the long range ones can do it still very well as long at you are over 60 km away.

You can still hit battleships reasonably well. 5% is a SMALL change, nothing ruined.

Consider the main weapon being used agaisnt dreads are being nerfed WAY more (sentries) and you have nothign to complain.

Ignoring that 5% is not small change,
WHY nerf dred tracking? What's the reasoning? It must be serious, because there are too many supers out there so nerf of dreds (which can lead to decrease in their popularity) should [edit: must] have a very strong reasoning behind it.


taht hard to grasp? Because they are BUFFIGN trackign computers by allowign them to overheat. They are afraid that without a nerf to the tracking, the metagame of XL guns insta blapping battleships will return.

Its OBVIOUS, and anyone that stopped to think before writing would have perceived their reasoning. I think also that is not needed, but their motivation is clear.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rammix
TheMurk
#230 - 2014-01-17 13:49:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


taht hard to grasp? Because they are BUFFIGN trackign computers by allowign them to overheat. They are afraid that without a nerf to the tracking, the metagame of XL guns insta blapping battleships will return.

Its OBVIOUS, and anyone that stopped to think before writing would have perceived their reasoning. I think also that is not needed, but their motivation is clear.

It would be OBVIOUS if they balanced it without nerfing anything. In the case of tracking, TCs aren't going to be boosted or nerfed so they shouldn't touch the capital guns.

Instead, it would be a good idea to just disallow dreds to overheat TCs. Or allow to overheat, but with role drawback (for the modules) in the ship stats. Or with drawback in the modules based on which ship they're fitted on. There are always options to do things elegantly.

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2014-01-17 13:52:36 UTC
Rammix wrote:

WHY nerf dred tracking? What's the reasoning? It must be serious, because there are too many supers out there so nerf of dreds (which can lead to decrease in their popularity) should [edit: must] have a very strong reasoning behind it.


I have read complains here that Rise has not given his reasoning for nerfing capital guns.

But it's fairly self-evident when you consider that dreads are "designed" to be mobile POS and carrier bashers, as are titans (amongst other roles).

Capital guns wield great power and it's not in the interest of game balance if they can use that power against all classes of ship. If that were the case, the only ship to fly would be a capital. Everything else would be obsolete.

I am pretty sure it's the dev team's intention that capital ships *require* subcapital escorts in order to survive against sub-capital fleets, or fleets with sub-capital support. The game would not be interesting if a capital ship was like a Death Star with no exhaust port. It's the exhaust port's unguarded opening that gives rise to the narrative.

With this in mind, any tracking nerf that does not actually reduce damage application against another capital ship can be seen as reasonable. The fact that it may (or may not) require a re-think of tactics is irrelevant.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2014-01-17 13:52:47 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


taht hard to grasp? Because they are BUFFIGN trackign computers by allowign them to overheat. They are afraid that without a nerf to the tracking, the metagame of XL guns insta blapping battleships will return.

Its OBVIOUS, and anyone that stopped to think before writing would have perceived their reasoning. I think also that is not needed, but their motivation is clear.

It would be OBVIOUS if they balanced it without nerfing anything. In the case of tracking, TCs aren't going to be boosted or nerfed so they shouldn't touch the capital guns.

Instead, it would be a good idea to just disallow dreds to overheat TCs. Or allow to overheat, but with role drawback (for the modules) in the ship stats. Or with drawback in the modules based on which ship they're fitted on. There are always options to do things elegantly.



That is another option, and maybe you shoudl suggest that , instead of attacking other players and Developers. THis change is not a random nonsense change as the rapid launchers. It is a change that might be overdone due to excessive fear, but at least he reasoning is CLEAR.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Khan Farshatok
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#233 - 2014-01-17 13:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Rammix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


taht hard to grasp? Because they are BUFFIGN trackign computers by allowign them to overheat. They are afraid that without a nerf to the tracking, the metagame of XL guns insta blapping battleships will return.

Its OBVIOUS, and anyone that stopped to think before writing would have perceived their reasoning. I think also that is not needed, but their motivation is clear.

It would be OBVIOUS if they balanced it without nerfing anything. In the case of tracking, TCs aren't going to be boosted or nerfed so they shouldn't touch the capital guns.

Instead, it would be a good idea to just disallow dreds to overheat TCs. Or allow to overheat, but with role drawback (for the modules) in the ship stats. Or with drawback in the modules based on which ship they're fitted on. There are always options to do things elegantly.


or just dont **** with TC's at all. it makes it overpowered for armor ships. you have tracking links for shield and trackign computers for armor. most shield tanked ships dont use tracking computers. its an unfair boost unless you boost the passive boost of tracking links.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#234 - 2014-01-17 13:59:44 UTC
Khan Farshatok wrote:
its an unfair boost unless you boost the passive boost of tracking links.


Tracking links are receiving the same boost as tracking computers in 1.1, by gaining the ability to overheat.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2014-01-17 14:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
So I decided to check Aebe's math, just to be sure.

Oh look it's the same graph.
And a comparison graph.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#236 - 2014-01-17 14:07:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


taht hard to grasp? Because they are BUFFIGN trackign computers by allowign them to overheat. They are afraid that without a nerf to the tracking, the metagame of XL guns insta blapping battleships will return.

Its OBVIOUS, and anyone that stopped to think before writing would have perceived their reasoning. I think also that is not needed, but their motivation is clear.

It would be OBVIOUS if they balanced it without nerfing anything. In the case of tracking, TCs aren't going to be boosted or nerfed so they shouldn't touch the capital guns.

Instead, it would be a good idea to just disallow dreds to overheat TCs. Or allow to overheat, but with role drawback (for the modules) in the ship stats. Or with drawback in the modules based on which ship they're fitted on. There are always options to do things elegantly.



That is another option, and maybe you shoudl suggest that , instead of attacking other players and Developers. THis change is not a random nonsense change as the rapid launchers. It is a change that might be overdone due to excessive fear, but at least he reasoning is CLEAR.


Just for the Records: you mixed Rammix with Kahn.
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#237 - 2014-01-17 14:09:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So I decided to check Aebe's math, just to be sure.

Oh look it's the same graph.


What is this? Me and a goon agreeing with each other?! Surely the world must be ending!
Rammix
TheMurk
#238 - 2014-01-17 14:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Rammix wrote:

WHY nerf dred tracking? What's the reasoning? It must be serious, because there are too many supers out there so nerf of dreds (which can lead to decrease in their popularity) should [edit: must] have a very strong reasoning behind it.


I have read complains here that Rise has not given his reasoning for nerfing capital guns.

But it's fairly self-evident when you consider that dreads are "designed" to be mobile POS and carrier bashers, as are titans (amongst other roles).

Capital guns wield great power and it's not in the interest of game balance if they can use that power against all classes of ship. If that were the case, the only ship to fly would be a capital. Everything else would be obsolete.

I am pretty sure it's the dev team's intention that capital ships *require* subcapital escorts in order to survive against sub-capital fleets, or fleets with sub-capital support. The game would not be interesting if a capital ship was like a Death Star with no exhaust port. It's the exhaust port's unguarded opening that gives rise to the narrative.

With this in mind, any tracking nerf that does not actually reduce damage application against another capital ship can be seen as reasonable. The fact that it may (or may not) require a re-think of tactics is irrelevant.

No, it's relevant. Simply put, less popular dreds (for different reasons and different situations) - more supers. More supers - more absurd war.
You can't nerf a ship without affecting its popularity in general. And by affecting its popularity you also affect many other aspects of its use.

2nd thing. Dreds WERE designed for bashing PoS and capital bashers, but they - as it often happens in eve - outgrew this narrow role and became something more. As someone of ccp stuff mentioned in one of the videos (eve vegas maybe), malleability is very important.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2014-01-17 14:12:23 UTC
Actually I'll need to make a third graph... most relevant I think of all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#240 - 2014-01-17 14:15:56 UTC
I am curious why CCP wont increase the signature size of capital weapons and ships instead of lowering the tracking, so subcaps would be save and Capital Weapons would be still useful against other moving caps...