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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#861 - 2014-01-10 13:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

All reasons have been explained. Too much EHP and it would make small ships irrelevant.

Need some restrictions to avoid abuse of things like hiding wormhole exits

Restrictign the D-Scan is on the baseline that no specially powerful capability shoudl come without a cost or risk...


What do mobile structures have to do with small ships? i didn't see that explanation but i'd imagine the logic is flawed.

Why not just make it so you can't hid cosmic anomalys? When hunting someone at a site in wormhole space, you can currently warp to sites and find a target through a process of elimination. The ability to hide sigs forces you to use combat probes, revealing your presence.

Restricting d-scan and probe scan from inside the inhibitor field, is acceptable.



Not flawed at all. Previous the jump drive had 45k ehp and took 20 sec to deploy. How a ship that cannot do 780 dps stop other ship from ALWAYS escaping using this damm device? Only option is everyone forget forever disruptors and decide that living inside web range is the only way to have PVP.


So in this scenario you describe you are solo in a frigate without a scram fitted and you land on grid with something that fears you so much that he launches a mobile jump unit and escapes after 12 seconds.

A. If you are solo, you wouldn't be able to kill the structure anyway and if you attempted, you would have to enter that dreaded web range you fear so much.

B. if you have a friend with you, one guy should have a scram and one a instructor

As i said, flawed logic.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#862 - 2014-01-10 13:46:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

All reasons have been explained. Too much EHP and it would make small ships irrelevant.

Need some restrictions to avoid abuse of things like hiding wormhole exits

Restrictign the D-Scan is on the baseline that no specially powerful capability shoudl come without a cost or risk...


What do mobile structures have to do with small ships? i didn't see that explanation but i'd imagine the logic is flawed.

Why not just make it so you can't hid cosmic anomalys? When hunting someone at a site in wormhole space, you can currently warp to sites and find a target through a process of elimination. The ability to hide sigs forces you to use combat probes, revealing your presence.

Restricting d-scan and probe scan from inside the inhibitor field, is acceptable.



Not flawed at all. Previous the jump drive had 45k ehp and took 20 sec to deploy. How a ship that cannot do 780 dps stop other ship from ALWAYS escaping using this damm device? Only option is everyone forget forever disruptors and decide that living inside web range is the only way to have PVP.


So in this scenario you describe you are solo in a frigate without a scram fitted and you land on grid with something that fears you so much that he launches a mobile jump unit and escapes after 12 seconds.

A. If you are solo, you wouldn't be able to kill the structure anyway and if you attempted, you would have to enter that dreaded web range you fear so much.

B. if you have a friend with you, one guy should have a scram and one a instructor

As i said, flawed logic.


Sorry to say but either you are dumb or your reading comprehension lacks lvl 1, borrowed from my evil twin Grath Jori.
The reason why the MMJU with 45k EHP and 20s to deploy were a bad idea were explained a lot of times in this topic, it would be in short words a 100% get out of jail free card for any combo with less than 780 DPS thus making long points in this kind of combat useless.

Got it?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#863 - 2014-01-10 14:20:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Seems a bit heavy handed of a nerf.



Considering that the side effects if unchecked were way heavier.

I think its easier for them to buff them later if they are nto used enough than to face huge side effects at start if they do not nerf them.


Basically nerf now, buff later if needed. Fair enough. One of the biggest things that stood out to me was the the MMJU will have 5k EHP and a 1min activation time. If I'm reading that right, it means I hit the jump button on the MMJU and a minute later I micro-jump 100km away.

Seems like an awfully long time. Hopefully I'm reading it wrong.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#864 - 2014-01-10 14:27:58 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Seems a bit heavy handed of a nerf.



Considering that the side effects if unchecked were way heavier.

I think its easier for them to buff them later if they are nto used enough than to face huge side effects at start if they do not nerf them.


Basically nerf now, buff later if needed. Fair enough. One of the biggest things that stood out to me was the the MMJU will have 5k EHP and a 1min activation time. If I'm reading that right, it means I hit the jump button on the MMJU and a minute later I micro-jump 100km away.

Seems like an awfully long time. Hopefully I'm reading it wrong.

You are, it is 1 min anchor time, 12 seconds to jump

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#865 - 2014-01-10 14:54:58 UTC
Scouts in inties who like to circle enemy fleets on grid are going to have to start being very careful about these.

Other inties can wait on the jump unit, activate it, overheat mwd, and start burning toward the scout who's hanging around at the edge of the grid. They will begin to close the gap on the target, and after 12 seconds receive a nice little jump of 100km to close the gap even further.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#866 - 2014-01-10 15:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Jori McKie wrote:

Sorry to say but either you are dumb or your reading comprehension lacks lvl 1, borrowed from my evil twin Grath Jori.
The reason why the MMJU with 45k EHP and 20s to deploy were a bad idea were explained a lot of times in this topic, it would be in short words a 100% get out of jail free card for any combo with less than 780 DPS thus making long points in this kind of combat useless.

Got it?


Did you read what i said?

The structure is now useless for in PVP because it can be destroyed by most ships before it is even activated and if you can't see that, you're an idiot... And if you think that everyone is going to carry this junk around with them so that they can "get out of jail free card" in 72 seconds, you know nothing about this game.

In what situation would yo use this structure?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#867 - 2014-01-10 15:02:45 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

All reasons have been explained. Too much EHP and it would make small ships irrelevant.

Need some restrictions to avoid abuse of things like hiding wormhole exits

Restrictign the D-Scan is on the baseline that no specially powerful capability shoudl come without a cost or risk...


What do mobile structures have to do with small ships? i didn't see that explanation but i'd imagine the logic is flawed.

Why not just make it so you can't hid cosmic anomalys? When hunting someone at a site in wormhole space, you can currently warp to sites and find a target through a process of elimination. The ability to hide sigs forces you to use combat probes, revealing your presence.

Restricting d-scan and probe scan from inside the inhibitor field, is acceptable.



Not flawed at all. Previous the jump drive had 45k ehp and took 20 sec to deploy. How a ship that cannot do 780 dps stop other ship from ALWAYS escaping using this damm device? Only option is everyone forget forever disruptors and decide that living inside web range is the only way to have PVP.


So in this scenario you describe you are solo in a frigate without a scram fitted and you land on grid with something that fears you so much that he launches a mobile jump unit and escapes after 12 seconds.

A. If you are solo, you wouldn't be able to kill the structure anyway and if you attempted, you would have to enter that dreaded web range you fear so much.

B. if you have a friend with you, one guy should have a scram and one a instructor

As i said, flawed logic.


nto flawed at all. Just because you do nto fly solo, that does not justify. Also you clearly are not thinkign trouhg. The target does not need to have the web. But you cannot expect all frigates to have scrams and ALWAYS expect to engage everythign in short range.

If you cannto understand taht , a so obvious and strong situation that Devs and CSM seens very fast to be a problem, then there not much to discuss.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#868 - 2014-01-10 15:04:02 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:

Sorry to say but either you are dumb or your reading comprehension lacks lvl 1, borrowed from my evil twin Grath Jori.
The reason why the MMJU with 45k EHP and 20s to deploy were a bad idea were explained a lot of times in this topic, it would be in short words a 100% get out of jail free card for any combo with less than 780 DPS thus making long points in this kind of combat useless.

Got it?


Did you read what i said?

The structure is now useless for in PVP because it can be destroyed by most ships before it is even activated and if you can't see that, you're an idiot.

In what situation would yo use this structure?




Preparign the battlefield for a trap so you do not need to expose your forced at the intended choke point before the enemy arrives, therefore increasing your safety .

If you are unable to use strategy, do not blame others on it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#869 - 2014-01-10 15:12:23 UTC
You guys aren't making any sense but tbh, i don't care anymore. The Jump unit will hardly ever be used in PVP but if you disagree, then please describe a scenario in which you could deploy these things in battle without them being instantly reinforced.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#870 - 2014-01-10 15:33:32 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Seems a bit heavy handed of a nerf.



Considering that the side effects if unchecked were way heavier.

I think its easier for them to buff them later if they are nto used enough than to face huge side effects at start if they do not nerf them.


Basically nerf now, buff later if needed. Fair enough. One of the biggest things that stood out to me was the the MMJU will have 5k EHP and a 1min activation time. If I'm reading that right, it means I hit the jump button on the MMJU and a minute later I micro-jump 100km away.

Seems like an awfully long time. Hopefully I'm reading it wrong.


No. What it means is that it has a 1 minute timer before you can use it, and then once it's anchored it takes 12 seconds to jump away.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#871 - 2014-01-10 15:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Rek Seven wrote:
You guys aren't making any sense but tbh, i don't care anymore. The Jump unit will hardly ever be used in PVP but if you disagree, then please describe a scenario in which you could deploy these things in battle without them being instantly reinforced.



That is a challenge?

Ok.. Simple so might be better examples.

You want to ambush on entrance of a gate, put a bubble.. smartbomb battleships.. and about 8 km ahea some of these units. WHen their scouts come trough you explode them.. and if enemy heavy forces arrive you use the units to get the F out after a short movment

There are several other options. But The thing is this is not a REACTION tool. That is more like a preparation of battlefield.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#872 - 2014-01-10 16:11:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
You guys aren't making any sense but tbh, i don't care anymore. The Jump unit will hardly ever be used in PVP but if you disagree, then please describe a scenario in which you could deploy these things in battle without them being instantly reinforced.



That is a challenge?

Ok.. Simple so might be better examples.

You want to ambush on entrance of a gate, put a bubble.. smartbomb battleships.. and about 8 km ahea some of these units. WHen their scouts come trough you explode them.. and if enemy heavy forces arrive you use the units to get the F out after a short movment

There are several other options. But The thing is this is not a REACTION tool. That is more like a preparation of battlefield.


You just picked the worst example which says it all really... Try asking yourself why you would use this structure in conjunction with a battle ship when you could just fit a MJD to your ship and escape in half the time.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#873 - 2014-01-10 16:26:15 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
You guys aren't making any sense but tbh, i don't care anymore. The Jump unit will hardly ever be used in PVP but if you disagree, then please describe a scenario in which you could deploy these things in battle without them being instantly reinforced.



That is a challenge?

Ok.. Simple so might be better examples.

You want to ambush on entrance of a gate, put a bubble.. smartbomb battleships.. and about 8 km ahea some of these units. WHen their scouts come trough you explode them.. and if enemy heavy forces arrive you use the units to get the F out after a short movment

There are several other options. But The thing is this is not a REACTION tool. That is more like a preparation of battlefield.


You just picked the worst example which says it all really... Try asking yourself why you would use this structure in conjunction with a battle ship when you could just fit a MJD to your ship and escape in half the time.



ever heard of the concept of modules using a slot? And PG and CPU?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#874 - 2014-01-10 16:36:41 UTC
No, i am completely oblivious to the fact that you can fit modules to ships in eve. Roll

Face it, your scenario is unrealistic for multiple reason the primary one being that if you are not in range to smartbomb your own structures, it will take you a minimum of 6 seconds to get in activation range and and additional 12 seconds to micro jump. The hostile fleet will be all over you in that time and any fleet worth their salt will have dedicated tackle with scrams fitted.

Feel free to take your time and come up with a better example as to how these will be used in PVP. I'll wait...

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
darius mclever
#875 - 2014-01-10 16:40:25 UTC
just an idea for the mobile scan inhibitor:

Instead of gimping the scan abilities under MSI completely ...how about limiting it to 1AU? That way you have a chance to see probes shortly before they will find you.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#876 - 2014-01-10 16:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Rek Seven wrote:
No, i am completely oblivious to the fact that you can fit modules to ships in eve. Roll

Face it, your scenario is unrealistic for multiple reason the primary one being that if you are not in range to smartbomb your own structures, it will take you a minimum of 6 seconds to get in activation range and and additional 12 seconds to micro jump. The hostile fleet will be all over you in that time and any fleet worth their salt will have dedicated tackle with scrams fitted.

Feel free to take your time and come up with a better example as to how these will be used in PVP. I'll wait...



Yah beleive what you want. It not like I am in a group that filters the PVP capabilities of the candidates...

Again.. if YOU are unable to use it, its YOUR problem. CCP cannot destroy VALID gameplay (solo) because YOU are unable to put your brain into second gear to deal with a bit more complex strategies.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#877 - 2014-01-10 16:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Rek Seven wrote:
You guys aren't making any sense but tbh, i don't care anymore. The Jump unit will hardly ever be used in PVP but if you disagree, then please describe a scenario in which you could deploy these things in battle without them being instantly reinforced.

You have to prepare the MMJU usage, have it on the field before the engagement to get the full advantage. In midfight the usefullness depends on how good you are and how good your enemy is.
Scenario:
20 kiting vs 25 brawling both have logis, both have Rapiers/Arazus the whole shebang including 5x fast tackle for the brawling gang. The kiting gang FC is not experienced enough and does his usual thing, align sun, burn if you need, 20-30s later the kiting is about 50km to 70km away form the brawling gang, trying to kill the fast tackle. Now the brawling gang drops 20 MMJUs and the kiting FC realize to late that they are on field > some dead kiting stuff or the kiting FC does realize the threat and change alignment just in time primaries the MMJUs and give the fast tackle some room to scram+web stuff waiting for the Rapier/Arazu to catch up. Or ....

There are many many options the MMJU can be used as defensive aka gtfo or offensive on a kiting gang either killing some of them or just put pressure on them so the fast tackle can do its work.

They are a lot more scenarios, in combination with MSI+drag bubble or drag bubble alone to have a gtfo option in non BS.

Let your brain work some out.....

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#878 - 2014-01-10 17:28:49 UTC
My brain is working at 100% efficiency and with perfect logic thank you very much! Blink

i think both you guys are wrong and either don't really know what you are talking PVP wise or are bending the reality to support your weak arguments and unrealistic views of PVP.

But let's agree to disagree, as I've said what i want to say and neither of us are getting anything from this exchange.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Resgo
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#879 - 2014-01-10 17:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Resgo
Quote:
Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.


This wouldn't bother me as a mechanic if it weren't for the fact that mounting an expanded probe launcher to scan it down ties up so much of a ship's resources and a lot just can't fit one period. This virtually eliminates the possibility of anyone using one of these getting caught in a solo pvp type situation.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#880 - 2014-01-10 18:23:00 UTC
Resgo wrote:
Quote:
Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.


This wouldn't bother me as a mechanic if it weren't for the fact that mounting an expanded probe launcher to scan it down ties up so much of a ship's resources and a lot just can't fit one period. This virtually eliminates the possibility of anyone using one of these getting caught in a solo pvp type situation.


The thing is, if you can find someone without probes now, you can find them without probes if they're using an MSI, provided you're willing to warp to every other MSI that might be in the system to see if they're there. It changes things, for sure, but if an MSI is off grid then you would have needed combats to find the ship there anyway.

The MSI doesn't stop you d-scanning for where an anom is, or using cores to find a signature. It just means you're taking a chance on whether there's actually a pilot there or not, and if someone sets up five or ten then you have to go to all of them one by one.