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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

First post First post First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#521 - 2014-01-08 15:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
It hides anything. Ships, bubbles, MMJDs, wrecks, and apparently even wormholes.

Great… now all we need are Mobile Mines that do bomb-level damage in a 30km radius and we're all set. We can create the EVE equivalent of Minesweeper.
Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#522 - 2014-01-08 15:34:04 UTC
I am skeptic towards both these mods. Below my 2 cent from the point of view of a smallish w-space pvp group. Not so much focusing on the details of when to bump who or how many seconds it takes to drop on a plexing fleet... more on general direction these mods seem to go.

The MMJD sounds a bit like an extra med slot for any ship that got the cargo hold for it and basically enables every ship to fit a MJD even though only BS can?! Overall it doesn't sound like something that promotes fights but rather promotes emergency exits. For me Eve is fun/thrilling because of the risk vs reward. This seems to lower the risk significantly. On the other hand i understood that anyone can use a MMJD once deployed. So whats the point?!

The mobile scan inhibitor sounds just obsolete and overly complicated. If it hides mobile bubbles as well it will be really just scaring newer players away from eve. These players who probably have a terribly hard time to drill through all these special cases that exist in Eve already.

Sorry, but why make this strange scan inhibitor? wouldn't it make much more sense to do some changes to the local channel? for w-space (where we live) i cannot see any significant impact of the scan inhibitor. We need to scan everything anyway. (unless that thing hides anomalies, which would be awful)

I think both these modules are heading into a direction i don't like. Making engagements somewhat more complicated and making running away even easier if you do it right.

Somehow in contrary to the changes done to the scanning system and scanning user interface lately which were really good. These changes removed tediousness from the game.

These two new modules seem to add tediousness to pvp. Especially the MMJD giving long range platforms even more options (you know the pussies who stay out of point range, not risking anything but gaining some easy kills until their friendly tacklers got killed and they run away to their hive). A pesky method of not committing to a fight but still maybe sneak on some kills, which got overly promoted with the tier 3 battle cruisers already.

Sorry to say, but both mods sound flawed to me. Overly complicated, giving a lot of room for running away in already hard to find smaller scale pvp. We, as a small corp/fleet, already most of the time invest a hell of a lot of ISK into a fleet to be able to stand up against the odds (especially in k-space null sec) just to find that it already is super easy for the blobs (to first cyno in and then) to just run away when blobing starts to not work as good as planned. So we already go higher risk by fighting 3...4...5 vs 1 and try to compensate via ISK and end up having a fleet of 20 ships be worth 10 times the ISK the 50 man hostile fleet is worth. Just to watch them MMJD from one spot to the next trying to down some of us without committing to anything.... awful outlook.

Looking at these two mods i somehow just want to say two things:

Get local channel sorted (instead of scan inhibitor)
Get POS fixed (instead of wasting time on stuff no one needs - MMJD).
corporal hicks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2014-01-08 15:43:26 UTC
Gonna hide the Mobile scan distrupter in recon 3 missions in osman and let all them little loot ninja's warp into the gas cloud and get fragged.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2014-01-08 15:46:07 UTC
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#525 - 2014-01-08 15:49:01 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

~Interesting mechanics~

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#526 - 2014-01-08 16:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

~Interesting mechanics~


They only last 2 hours so crying as if it is going to be a real problem is pretty silly . So much delicious tears from the poor pirates crying about the MSI. Great change CCP!

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#527 - 2014-01-08 16:08:30 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

~Interesting mechanics~


They only last 2 hours so crying as if it is going to be a real problem is pretty silly . So much delicious tears from the poor pirates crying about the MSI. Great change CCP!

Mmyep, pirates crying about it being easy to trap clueless/unprepared people in wormholes by using MSIs. Sounds like a thing pirates would cry about, because pirates would never want to have easy-mode trapping, and pirates are never prepared for all eventualities.

Sounds legit.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2014-01-08 16:11:54 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

~Interesting mechanics~


They only last 2 hours so crying as if it is going to be a real problem is pretty silly . So much delicious tears from the poor pirates crying about the MSI. Great change CCP!



CCP should really ban people from NPC corps from posting. This is a clear example of no clue. that should automatically not be listened to.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#529 - 2014-01-08 16:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Onnen Mentar
Mobile Micro Jump Unit
Pretty much just have to echo the concerns others have voiced already. If you want it to be a get out of jail free card, then at least make people sacrifice something other than a measly 50m3? I understand it could add some nice tactical stuff for fleets, but for small gang pvp it is going to really suck. Really difficult to understand how a BS only module can be turned into a 50m3 deployable that will micro jump anything that is not a proper capital ship?

Mobile Scan Inhibitor
The idea seems at least worth testing. Just make it a beacon to warp to? :P
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#530 - 2014-01-08 16:19:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Some huge bad effect is that if you have just a normal probe launcher you may get stuck in a wormhole if the main forces of the system simply decide to keep you there by cloaking the exits.



Every single time I stop to think of these deployables and I think more and more they are incredlby stupid.

~Interesting mechanics~


They only last 2 hours so crying as if it is going to be a real problem is pretty silly . So much delicious tears from the poor pirates crying about the MSI. Great change CCP!



CCP should really ban people from NPC corps from posting. This is a clear example of no clue. that should automatically not be listened to.

Read back through the thread. All Lin is doing is repeating "yay pirates have risk" and "adapt or die" or other cliches with little to no substance. She's either a troll or is in some sort of euphoric trance because this particular change would be a big improvement of life for her main. Don't mind her.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#531 - 2014-01-08 16:21:40 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:
I have a really simple question: why adding so many new items to simply protect missionners?


the pvpers of eve have been demanding changes to local and d-scan for a while this is not to protect missionners

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#532 - 2014-01-08 16:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Theon Severasse wrote:
Priestess Lin's is the vocal minority.


Goran Konjich wrote:
I can see a consensus here. CCP, do not add this deployables to game.



Hilarious how willfully ignorant those opposed to these excellent creative tools appear to be.Lol

There has not been one decent argument put forth on how MSI or MMJU is a bad idea at its core. It is about time aggressors had to take some real risks for rewards.

If aggressors want to play it safe and use a scout, they shouldn't cry about their prey having options and opportunities as well.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2014-01-08 16:26:41 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Goran Konjich wrote:
I can see a consensus here. CCP, do not add this deployables to game.


Hilarious how willfully ignorant those opposed to these excellent change really are.Lol


This incredible line full of arguments and deep reasoning will really be important to change people minds or be taken as feedback....

OR NOT!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#534 - 2014-01-08 16:39:02 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

the pvpers of eve have been demanding changes to local and d-scan for a while this is not to protect missionners




MSI is biased toward people sitting inside it. Players actively seeking for engagments hardly sit inside things. It's a nerf to d-scan but not balanced with other changes: is nerf to d-scan only for a side the ones roaming around and seeking for engagment; farmers and campers have their d-scan functionalities 100% working as well as as their traditional evading tools untouched.

Sure, you can set a trap inside a MSI, but why someone not activelly searching for a fight should warp inside an obvious trap????

Hell, is not rocket science...

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#535 - 2014-01-08 16:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Can cloaked ships use the MJD unit and and if yes remain cloaked while doing so?

Can HICs use it with their bubble up?

Questions needing answers


In its current iteration the answer to both is yes. We're not dead set on keeping that as is however.


I may not have your insight and data on this but I KIND OF think it'd be a little uncool to keep that as is.



Don't worry.

Just complain about it enough and the next iteration of the MMJU will have a 40 second spoolup time in addition to needing to decloak to use it.

See what they did to the rapid missile launchers is why I am not excited about these new devices. People will get creative with them, and they will be nerfed into ridiculousness.

wich is exactly why, such modules should never go farther than CCP's break room......

those two modules are ********, they are OP! as they are, ppl WILL abuse them (i already see at least 10 ways of abuse for each one, and i didn't even searched for it) => so they will be nerfed hard, or worse, other game mechanics will be impacted, in a pathetic attempt to balance them.

in the mean time, the real problems of the game are not adressed (SOV / GRINDING / POS / DRONES / insane delay / broken grids)
Xaarous
Happy Endings.
Good Sax
#536 - 2014-01-08 16:43:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xaarous wrote:
Will a newly-dropped mobile scan inhibitor show up in the probe scanner as a new signature? And will you need core or combat probes to scan it down?

I'm thinking about the scenario of wormhole players who want to be 'sufficiently vigilant' and that will cost. Right now, d-scan, staying aligned, and watching for new signatures is the minimum; having a player or at least a multi-boxed character watching existing entrance(s) is recommended.

If I scan down my static, jump in, and drop an MSI, will anyone outside of d-scan range have a clue that I just arrived? Will they have to keep probes - perhaps even combat probes - out and scanning just to realize something's up?

My concern here is that this is too biased towards the aggressor, in the sense that defenders have to do lots of very boring things just to have a chance to escape, meanwhile the aggressors get to do lots of fun things and now have reduced risk since a defender has even less information about them.

I say this as someone who often plays both roles - if I only have fun as an aggressor, I'm going to burn out on everything else. It's OK if being the bad guy is the MOST fun, but earning my upkeep should still be fun as well.



Are you nuts? All these modules are completely in favor of the defenser! They help in NOTHIGN the agresssor!! And they make basically impossible to catch a non AFK person.

Defenders just need to check for cobmat probes. because no one can ever get to them without cobmat probes!! and if tackled because they are sleeping.. they just jump 100 km away with the even more overpowered device.



Evidently you don't spend much time in WH space. I agree that it favors "people that use them over people who don't" - but that IMHO favors aggressors more than defenders.

I jump into a system in cov ops, drop the MSI and cloak up. Only people in d-scan range of the MSI (which is right at the new WH, so you don't even know THAT exists if it's new) are aware that anything has happened, or people who choose to keep system-wide combat probes out and scan every few seconds, redeploy their probes every hour or so, etc. etc. - pretty tedious for something called 'a game'.

Meanwhile, I'm using d-scan and my cov ops to - fairly safely - face check any MSIs, anomalies, and celestials, all invisibly, and all pretty engaging. Once that's done, I either have a warp-in on you or I know which of a small number of signatures you're at. That's when I finally deploy combat probes and I'll have you probed down within 30 seconds. That's enough time to alert someone who's monitoring their d-scan diligently - again, is someone saving vs. tedium while I'm Stalking All The Things.

So yes, the MSI will give both predators and prey a tool to help cover their tracks. The point is, finding tracks is something the predator is already good at and motivated to do, while prey HAS to do it but doesn't derive enjoyment from it.

My proposal is not to scrap the MSI; rather, please take a look at giving prey tools to make their lives engaging as well. For example, make a one-shot 'scan monitor' or something, similar stats to the MSI, lets you configure a whitelist of things to ignore and plays an audio (hah, Eve has sound?) and some kind of UI alert when something new shows up. It can never replace scouting, keeping eyes out and ears open, etc. but it could make those things *easier and more fun* at some material cost.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#537 - 2014-01-08 16:43:41 UTC
Well you can pretty much guarantee that in null and WHs every single MSI will have a large T2 bubble in it.
Either for a trap or to delay you from getting to the bling PvE ship.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#538 - 2014-01-08 16:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Lets sum up shall we?

All solo roamers are now going to be obliged to fit an expanded probe launcher, horribly gimping any combat capability.

Meanwhile bears will be able to use a MJD without even having to bother fitting one to their ship!

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Xaarous
Happy Endings.
Good Sax
#539 - 2014-01-08 16:54:37 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Lets sum up shall we?

All solo roamers are now going to be obliged to fit an expanded probe launcher, horribly gimping any combat capability.

Meanwhile bears will be able to use a MJD in without even having to bother fitting one to their ship!



Let's not forget that scram'ing a target prevents the MJD.

I'm having trouble believing that people will religiously drop either an "I'm here!" marker on themselves every location, plus 0-N "I might be here!" markers for smoke screen, when every one of those drops costs 5m ISK. That's a sizeable dent in income.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#540 - 2014-01-08 17:00:52 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Well you can pretty much guarantee that in null and WHs every single MSI will have a large T2 bubble in it.
Either for a trap or to delay you from getting to the bling PvE ship.


I guess if you want to kill a bling pve ship that has gone to the trouble of setting up multiple defenses and maintaining them every 2 hours, you might actually have to do some preparation yourself or bring some friends. God forbid pirates should be challenged in this game, right? Roll

This reaction from the pirate crowd is to be expected. Aggressors have had all the power and have had it easy for far too long in this game, and it can be expected they will say anything to be able to maintain that.

PVErs will likely be emboldened by these new modules to take some risks outside high sec due to aggressors not having every advantage anymore. Good for CCP for adding some much needed balance to the game despite having to rustle a few jimmies.

CCP has a message for those of you who are upset about these great new changes.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049