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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

First post First post First post
Author
Alundil
Rolled Out
#541 - 2014-01-08 17:02:21 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Nope, to both of them.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mobile Micro Jump Unit

This is a bit less egregious than the second one. It is simply not viable due to how alignment mechanics and client lag work.

Are you actually aligned to the guy you want to warp to, or just rubberbanding and actually pointing 60 degrees in another direction? Who knows? Better wait 12 seconds and find out!

While Eve still has no good way to know exactly towards what your ship is pointing, any mechanic that relies on "aiming" your ship is just a bad, bad idea. Bombs are marginally "okay" because they have some give due to their AoE. Something like this has no room for mistakes, especially when propelling you 100 km, where a simple 10 degree deviation throws you 17 km off your mark.


Try this: close your eyes, put a ruler down in an oblique position on your desk, then open just one eye and, without moving your head, accurately pinpoint the most distant object in the room the ruler is pointing at. Hard? Now do it in space, with a non-linearly-shaped ship.

To fix it: Alignment needs to match the actual ship's heading, with some visual indication of what you're actually aligned to. Cool concept, but nightmarishly unusable execution if you want any sort of accuracy with it.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mobile Scan Inhibitor




Trolling people with cloaking wasn't enough, I see. Now we have space shell-games! Featuring two super-fun perspectives:

1. The safest shell game. Something I'm sure a lot of people have already pointed out is that those doing stationary activities (including ratting, mining, missioning, etc) can completely obscure their locations from any interlopers. Not only that, but it is passive -- they do not even have to stop their activity and cloak or warp when a potential target shows up. In addition, they can see the threat coming, without their aggressor even knowing if he's going for a red herring or not.

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead? Why was your practiced fast d-scanning and target-finding trumped risk-free by a skill-less spamming of d-scan and warp? (Which, I should mention, gives botting a big pat on the back)

So you do all you can: you spend the next chunk of valuable time, blowing these up, frustrated that what used to be a good chase and a contest between a hunter's skill at finding prey, and the prey's ability to evade... just turned into structure shooting.

The most dangerous shell game. Meanwhile, the vulnerable people in your alliance have noticed MSIs popping up all around the system. Now and again, a hostile sits in the system for hours, just as the "AFK" cloakers of old.* Now and then he pops up kills (or hotdrops)* someone, and then goes away being as invisible as he was before. So you do what is most reasonable to do: you get in your probing ship and probe down the MSI's. But... oh no! Because the hostile can still use his d-scan, he sees that you're probing him down! And, just like the PvEer before, he can warp off before you even know he was there! How's that for fun? So your PvP turns into structure-grinding once again as you tear down his MSIs.

(* Ignore these if you're in a wormhole. All you know is these MSIs on scan are vaguely threatening to your very existence and if you want to know what's actually going on, you have to... you guessed it, grind structures)

Now, one of three things happens: either he leaves since he knows he can't take you (info you don't even know about him); or he returns to you, confident he can kill you, and ganks you as you are structure-grinding (sort of escapable, since the MSI works for you now); or the most fun: he sets up a mobile small warp disruptor inside of another MSI, and waits for you there.

What fun! Isn't it great how this one structure lets any enemy force you either into a compromising PvP situation, into structure grinding, or into just leaving? It doesn't even matter what you're doing, or what skill you have; without information, you are permanently at a disadvantage. I know I can't wait to be a victim of this.

Lastly any sort of disabling of d-scan is a legitimization of the only other instant intel tool: local channel. I thought CCP agreed that using local as an intel tool is awful and needs to be replaced with something better. Why are you pushing for modules that make it more vital to gameplay?

tl;dr: MSIs hate fun.

How to fix it: Put it in the wastebasket, and go back to the drawing board.

I am usually not this negative, but this idea is absolutely purely awful.


This is a truly excellent write up of the issues and problems that these items will create.

Well said.

I'm right behind you

Tertius Tallang
Ex Inanimento Prodeo
#542 - 2014-01-08 17:06:08 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
There has not been one decent argument put forth on how MSI or MMJU are a bad idea.


Not even taking you seriously at this point anymore.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#543 - 2014-01-08 17:07:26 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Well you can pretty much guarantee that in null and WHs every single MSI will have a large T2 bubble in it.
Either for a trap or to delay you from getting to the bling PvE ship.


I guess if you want to kill a bling pve ship that has gone to the trouble of setting up multiple defenses and maintaining them every 2 hours, you might actually have to do some preparation yourself or bring some friends. God forbid pirates should be challenged in this game, right? Roll

This reaction from the pirate crowd is to be expected. Aggressors have had all the power and have had it easy for far too long in this game, and it can be expected they will say anything to be able to maintain that.

PVErs will likely be emboldened by these new modules to take some risks outside high sec due to aggressors not having every advantage anymore. Good for CCP for adding some much needed balance to the game despite having to rustle a few jimmies.

CCP has a message for those of you who are upset about these great new changes.

dude, it is already impossible to catch even a BS if it is within a deadspace pocket provided the pilot has more iq than an oister, thx local + dscan.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#544 - 2014-01-08 17:09:51 UTC
Xaarous wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xaarous wrote:
Will a newly-dropped mobile scan inhibitor show up in the probe scanner as a new signature? And will you need core or combat probes to scan it down?

I'm thinking about the scenario of wormhole players who want to be 'sufficiently vigilant' and that will cost. Right now, d-scan, staying aligned, and watching for new signatures is the minimum; having a player or at least a multi-boxed character watching existing entrance(s) is recommended.

If I scan down my static, jump in, and drop an MSI, will anyone outside of d-scan range have a clue that I just arrived? Will they have to keep probes - perhaps even combat probes - out and scanning just to realize something's up?

My concern here is that this is too biased towards the aggressor, in the sense that defenders have to do lots of very boring things just to have a chance to escape, meanwhile the aggressors get to do lots of fun things and now have reduced risk since a defender has even less information about them.

I say this as someone who often plays both roles - if I only have fun as an aggressor, I'm going to burn out on everything else. It's OK if being the bad guy is the MOST fun, but earning my upkeep should still be fun as well.



Are you nuts? All these modules are completely in favor of the defenser! They help in NOTHIGN the agresssor!! And they make basically impossible to catch a non AFK person.

Defenders just need to check for cobmat probes. because no one can ever get to them without cobmat probes!! and if tackled because they are sleeping.. they just jump 100 km away with the even more overpowered device.



Evidently you don't spend much time in WH space. I agree that it favors "people that use them over people who don't" - but that IMHO favors aggressors more than defenders.

I jump into a system in cov ops, drop the MSI and cloak up. Only people in d-scan range of the MSI (which is right at the new WH, so you don't even know THAT exists if it's new) are aware that anything has happened, or people who choose to keep system-wide combat probes out and scan every few seconds, redeploy their probes every hour or so, etc. etc. - pretty tedious for something called 'a game'.

Meanwhile, I'm using d-scan and my cov ops to - fairly safely - face check any MSIs, anomalies, and celestials, all invisibly, and all pretty engaging. Once that's done, I either have a warp-in on you or I know which of a small number of signatures you're at. That's when I finally deploy combat probes and I'll have you probed down within 30 seconds. That's enough time to alert someone who's monitoring their d-scan diligently - again, is someone saving vs. tedium while I'm Stalking All The Things.

So yes, the MSI will give both predators and prey a tool to help cover their tracks. The point is, finding tracks is something the predator is already good at and motivated to do, while prey HAS to do it but doesn't derive enjoyment from it.

My proposal is not to scrap the MSI; rather, please take a look at giving prey tools to make their lives engaging as well. For example, make a one-shot 'scan monitor' or something, similar stats to the MSI, lets you configure a whitelist of things to ignore and plays an audio (hah, Eve has sound?) and some kind of UI alert when something new shows up. It can never replace scouting, keeping eyes out and ears open, etc. but it could make those things *easier and more fun* at some material cost.



but the defending guy can deployt it before the agressor is there. THe agressor must arrive and be visible until it deploy his own. That is hwy is superio for defender!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#545 - 2014-01-08 17:11:00 UTC
Xaarous wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Lets sum up shall we?

All solo roamers are now going to be obliged to fit an expanded probe launcher, horribly gimping any combat capability.

Meanwhile bears will be able to use a MJD in without even having to bother fitting one to their ship!



Let's not forget that scram'ing a target prevents the MJD.

I'm having trouble believing that people will religiously drop either an "I'm here!" marker on themselves every location, plus 0-N "I might be here!" markers for smoke screen, when every one of those drops costs 5m ISK. That's a sizeable dent in income.



You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#546 - 2014-01-08 17:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Alundil wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead?



Well said.


Not really. He somehow thinks he is entitled to blow up someone who takes precautions and doesn't make any mistakes. This is hilarious hearing from pirates about what is "not fun" that other people can do to defend themselves against them. ******* classic.Lol

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#547 - 2014-01-08 17:13:04 UTC
you guys know the forum has an option to "block" idiots or trolls, don't you?
in case you don't: click on the name of the guy/girl >hide posts, or something Bear
Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#548 - 2014-01-08 17:14:55 UTC
So when do we start shooting monuments in Jita?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#549 - 2014-01-08 17:16:19 UTC
gascanu wrote:
you guys know the forum has an option to "block" idiots or trolls, don't you?
in case you don't: click on the name of the guy/girl >hide posts, or something Bear


Thanks very much

+1

Priestess dullard = blocked

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2014-01-08 17:18:27 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead?



Well said.


Not really. He somehow thinks he is entitled to blow up someone who takes precautions and doesn't make any mistakes. This is hilarious hearing from pirates about what is "not fun" that other people can do to defend themselves against them. ******* classic.Lol



so you think you are entitled to not being blow up by someone that does not make any mistakes? Let be clear.. the game TODAY.. you only die if you are idiot, drunk , have a connection issue or was betrayed.

So do YOU DIE NOWADAYS IN BELTS?

You think its right to remove 100% of PVP against non AFK people in game?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Callic Veratar
#551 - 2014-01-08 17:21:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#552 - 2014-01-08 17:22:52 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead?



Well said.


Not really. He somehow thinks he is entitled to blow up someone who takes precautions and doesn't make any mistakes. This is hilarious hearing from pirates about what is "not fun" that other people can do to defend themselves against them. ******* classic.Lol

People already get away all the time because they take precautions and make no mistakes. Even if I don't kill them though, the chase is fun.

MSI's turn the pirate/carebear relationship from one of a game of "tag" to one of a game of "hide and seek" where the one who's "it" has to wear a blindfold and earmuffs. Unless you blindly charge at places not even knowing if there are people there, you get lucky and someone is there, and they forget to step out of the way, it's impossible to tag anyone.

I get that you don't like being chased around against your will, and there should be mechanics other than "run away" to deal with someone wanting to screw with you. Yeah, the MSI provides that. Try to look at it from the other side though: would you want to play hide and seek while blindfolded and deafened?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#553 - 2014-01-08 17:23:23 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?


Does it inhibit the MMJD unit, though? someone needs to test that if someone hasn't already.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#554 - 2014-01-08 17:24:06 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?

According to some people's reports on Sisi, while you can't use the MJD on your own ship, you can activate the MMJD in space while in Bastion mode.

It would be great if someone definitively confirms this, though (screenshots or something), since it seems completely stupid and broken. If it's true, MMJDs need some serious work.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#555 - 2014-01-08 17:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
Priestess Lin wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Picture this: you are raiding an enemy system, and you jump into a system known to be full of vulnerable targets. You see three asteroid belts and an anomaly on d-scan, all with MSIs in them. So you warp to one. 20 seconds of travel later... there's nothing there except some wrecks. You warp to the next. Nope, same thing. On to the next. Nope. And in the last one? Nothing there but some more wrecks. How can this be? Well, at some point during your warping around, you were on the way to the right place. Your mark, though, if it were ever even there, saw you on 10,000,000 km D-scan, and warped off before you could even land on grid.

What could you have done instead?



Well said.


Not really. He somehow thinks he is entitled to blow up someone who takes precautions and doesn't make any mistakes. This is hilarious hearing from pirates about what is "not fun" that other people can do to defend themselves against them. ******* classic.Lol


When a hunter catches someone, that person has already made at least one mistake. It is actually really hard to catch someone who isn't AFK or completely dumb. I've been on both sides of that, including completely dumb when I was new. With local, it's almost impossible to get anyone who's paying any kind of attention already, and that doesn't need to be made more difficult. At least not in a way that doesn't make it more fun for either party.

At this point, you have said nothing new for days. you are obviously just a shill account for somebody wanting to cause drama and terrible additions to the game.
Callic Veratar
#556 - 2014-01-08 17:28:36 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?

According to some people's reports on Sisi, while you can't use the MJD on your own ship, you can activate the MMJD in space while in Bastion mode.

It would be great if someone definitively confirms this, though (screenshots or something), since it seems completely stupid and broken. If it's true, MMJDs need some serious work.


From what was said earlier, capitals can also use the Sisi-MMJD. That suggests that usage restrictions haven't been added. If Bastion Mauraders can use MMJD on TQ, that would be amazing/terrible. In this instance I'm willing to defer to it's not complete yet rather than fire and pitchforks.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2014-01-08 17:29:48 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?


Does it inhibit the MMJD unit, though? someone needs to test that if someone hasn't already.



According to some people that tested, it does not inhibit it. Same way it doe snot inhibit cyno ships using it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#558 - 2014-01-08 17:30:33 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean the scram taht cannot be applied over a marauder in bastion mode..t he same marauder that can use that thing while in bastion mode?


The same bastion mode that inhibits activation of MJD?

According to some people's reports on Sisi, while you can't use the MJD on your own ship, you can activate the MMJD in space while in Bastion mode.

It would be great if someone definitively confirms this, though (screenshots or something), since it seems completely stupid and broken. If it's true, MMJDs need some serious work.


From what was said earlier, capitals can also use the Sisi-MMJD. That suggests that usage restrictions haven't been added. If Bastion Mauraders can use MMJD on TQ, that would be amazing/terrible. In this instance I'm willing to defer to it's not complete yet rather than fire and pitchforks.



CCP stated mass limits woudl be used to impede capital ships from using it. That would do nothing for Bastion mode.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Louis Catcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#559 - 2014-01-08 17:42:19 UTC
I can see how this can work, it will need a lot of restrictions though both to the MJD and the scan inhibitor. Seriously, having an inhibitor in a p
Callic Veratar
#560 - 2014-01-08 17:47:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
According to some people that tested, it does not inhibit it. Same way it doe snot inhibit cyno ships using it.


So, raise a bug report.