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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#3021 - 2013-11-30 05:46:58 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:
CCP Rise's opinion voiced during his reddit IamA was reasonable, but just because the focus is mainly on the spaceship game does not mean that nobody here has an interest to make meaningful Avatar gameplay within the EVE universe happen. (-:


http://goo.gl/Ffpa1p

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#3022 - 2013-11-30 06:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Personally (as programmer) I think "WiS is costly" idea is (to put it mildly) not entirely true since CCP already has developed framework / engine - it's like 80% of all investments needed. Unlike in FiS CCP doesn't have to be careful with implementation of player interactions in WiS i.e. putting new ships into the game require tons of research to predict meta changes while WiS meta doesn't exist and can be almost anything.

P.S. There is high chance 2 new space sandbox games will have WiS in 2014. Can't wait.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3023 - 2013-11-30 11:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Lipbite wrote:
Personally (as programmer) I think "WiS is costly" idea is (to put it mildly) not entirely true since CCP already has developed framework / engine - it's like 80% of all investments needed. Unlike in FiS CCP doesn't have to be careful with implementation of player interactions in WiS i.e. putting new ships into the game require tons of research to predict meta changes while WiS meta doesn't exist and can be almost anything.

P.S. There is high chance 2 new space sandbox games will have WiS in 2014. Can't wait.


That's exactly my point. WiS is a blank sheet if they just can keep FiS's complexity away from it, which means it should be "not meaningful" in CCP terms (but meaningful to the people who PAY it).

Yet, let's look at how goes meaningful gameplay: CCP is implementing a meaningful addition for spaceships, aka the Hallelujah Plan and the "Newspace", and yet it's barring 80% of the game from using it straight from the inception. Why?

Because, as the gates to Newspace are destructable, building one requires a highly organized alliance effort able to defend the gate against other alliances.

And such alliances barely represent 20% of the game, being generous. Even the largest of them represents only between 8.75% and 2.33% of the subscribers base (CFC = 35,000 out of 400,000 to 1,500,000 characters).

So, CCP thinks that it's appropiate to devote 3 years to provide content only to 1 in 5 players, with litlte to no chance to attract a different niche of new players, and yet they think it is too costly to implement a kind of content that works even in bad games.

Because, let's remember, even the terribad STO and SWKOR are earning money with their bad content and avatar stuff... which is more than CCP's avatar-based other games can claim, whereas the game they have and which makes them money can't get avatar content because it's too costly after each other pet project gets a piece of the cake.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#3024 - 2013-11-30 11:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Trii Seo
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

That's exactly my point. WiS is a blank sheet if they just can keep FiS's complexity away from it, which means it should be "not meaningful" in CCP terms.

Yet, let's look at how goes meaningful gameplay: CCP is implementing a meaningful addition for spaceships, aka the Hallelujah Plan and the "Newspace", and yet it's barring 80% of the game from using it straight from the inception. Why?


"If a small group of players can't use it, we haven't done our job right" - CCP Fozzie on stargates, EVE Down Under.

The exact question he was asked was if the new gates were something a small group could do or was it only an undertaking big entities - like the CFC - could do. So I guess even if they do implement some form of a stargate that costs as much as fifty titans in minerals to build, smaller groups could still get there in another way.

It's obvious large entities will benefit from it and likely get there first though - it's not CCP's fault either.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#3025 - 2013-11-30 13:03:17 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

And, as for meaningful avatar gameplay... this thread has shown many times that the definition of "meaningful" should be left to the players willing to pay for WiS.

You are truly more of a troll than Rhes and Vaju combined.

Vaju Enki wrote:
A cube with a lantern that moves around to other cubes. That's the pinnacle of meaningful gameplay.

Don't go there Vaju, don't even go there; 'cause EVE is just spheres that moves around to other spheres.Blink
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3026 - 2013-11-30 13:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Trii Seo wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

That's exactly my point. WiS is a blank sheet if they just can keep FiS's complexity away from it, which means it should be "not meaningful" in CCP terms.

Yet, let's look at how goes meaningful gameplay: CCP is implementing a meaningful addition for spaceships, aka the Hallelujah Plan and the "Newspace", and yet it's barring 80% of the game from using it straight from the inception. Why?


"If a small group of players can't use it, we haven't done our job right" - CCP Fozzie on stargates, EVE Down Under.(...)


Translation: "You will be able to ally with and/or rent access to Newspace from the Goons; we have all angles covered, you silly you!"

Roll

Quote:
The exact question he was asked was if the new gates were something a small group could do or was it only an undertaking big entities - like the CFC - could do. So I guess even if they do implement some form of a stargate that costs as much as fifty titans in minerals to build, smaller groups could still get there in another way.


See, if there are two ways to go there, and one is terribly expensive and the other is readily accesible to small players, why will anyone bother with the hard way?

How many nullsec industrialists bother with nullsec industry? Why bother building a gate to Newspace worth trillions or whatever, if there is a "small guy access" to it? Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Mystraena
Perkone
Caldari State
#3027 - 2013-11-30 15:41:49 UTC
One possible way to implement meaningful avatar gameplay is...integrate Dust with Eve on PC, allow the same character to train both Dust/Eve, and play both straight from the client.

Then add more Dust gameplay that impact Eve.

There you go, avatar gameplay that has some meanings, and Dust514 is saved!

CCP insistence on making Dust514 as PS3 exclusive is what I don't understand...
Mysttina
Alpha Spectres
#3028 - 2013-11-30 16:10:53 UTC
Mystraena wrote:
One possible way to implement meaningful avatar gameplay is...integrate Dust with Eve on PC, allow the same character to train both Dust/Eve, and play both straight from the client.

Then add more Dust gameplay that impact Eve.

There you go, avatar gameplay that has some meanings, and Dust514 is saved!

CCP insistence on making Dust514 as PS3 exclusive is what I don't understand...


Doubt it will happen though. Current WIS and Dust514 are using different engine and CCP has spent considerable investment in both of them.

I do agree that Dust514 and WIS could have been same thing from the beginning.
Possibly as a result from Greed is Good mantra from that time.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#3029 - 2013-11-30 20:28:11 UTC
Sadly, we've seen this too often where a new game play style might be developed at the cost of developing more toys for major alliances. Then a bunch of alliances spread BS on the forums, round up an mob with pitchforks and torches, and go burn parts of Jita down.


We will never see WiS. We will never see COSMOS taken anywhere, we will never see an actual POS overhaul, or any number of things that the players have been demanding almost since day 1 in some cases. Instead we've had a long train of things that are only to the benefit of major alliances. This latest expansion has been a massive circle jerk for the nullsec alliances and CCP, and this announcement of building one's own stargates to newspace being effectively a nullsec allliance only toy? **** that.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#3030 - 2013-11-30 21:06:07 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Sadly, we've seen this too often where a new game play style might be developed at the cost of developing more toys for major alliances. Then a bunch of alliances spread BS on the forums, round up an mob with pitchforks and torches, and go burn parts of Jita down.


We will never see WiS. We will never see COSMOS taken anywhere, we will never see an actual POS overhaul, or any number of things that the players have been demanding almost since day 1 in some cases. Instead we've had a long train of things that are only to the benefit of major alliances. This latest expansion has been a massive circle jerk for the nullsec alliances and CCP, and this announcement of building one's own stargates to newspace being effectively a nullsec allliance only toy? **** that.


This was nothing to do with "alliances".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3031 - 2013-11-30 23:28:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Malcanis wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Sadly, we've seen this too often where a new game play style might be developed at the cost of developing more toys for major alliances. Then a bunch of alliances spread BS on the forums, round up an mob with pitchforks and torches, and go burn parts of Jita down.


We will never see WiS. We will never see COSMOS taken anywhere, we will never see an actual POS overhaul, or any number of things that the players have been demanding almost since day 1 in some cases. Instead we've had a long train of things that are only to the benefit of major alliances. This latest expansion has been a massive circle jerk for the nullsec alliances and CCP, and this announcement of building one's own stargates to newspace being effectively a nullsec allliance only toy? **** that.


This was nothing to do with "alliances".


To be honest, The Mittani was in favor of Incarna two months before it was delivered.

He was not the only one to have a disgusting surprise when it actually launched, of course.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#3032 - 2013-11-30 23:29:59 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Personally (as programmer) I think "WiS is costly" idea is (to put it mildly) not entirely true since CCP already has developed framework / engine - it's like 80% of all investments needed. Unlike in FiS CCP doesn't have to be careful with implementation of player interactions in WiS i.e. putting new ships into the game require tons of research to predict meta changes while WiS meta doesn't exist and can be almost anything.

P.S. There is high chance 2 new space sandbox games will have WiS in 2014. Can't wait.



Yes, this too.

So-called "FiS" is old, solid and in deepth developed. Needs fixes, tuning, mantainence, improvements, but in general works fine.

Proble is that being so in deepth and devleoped across 10 years is also harder to expand. Even small adds (like new ships) requires tons of balancements and nerfs and so on. Any major improvement risk to break some core mechanics and requires an huge effort (and costs). In fact CCP avoid to do anything relevan in the FiS area.

On the countrary WIS is one of those EVE improvements (not the only one) that could allow to expand the EVE universe and add brand new options with no risk to mess the existing gameplay.


Tweaking, fixing, small improvements, this is all good and needed, but it only caters to a playerbase that is already fine with the game, do not expand the gameplay nor the playerbase: I don't see someone that never played EVE willing to give a try because "oh wow, now they changing the warp speed, I've to try this game" nor I see an old player coming back because "wow, they nerfing T3, I've to come back to EVE"

The point is if one think that EVE have to grow or not.
Actually CCP money seems to be more on a rush to find other games more than on trusting EVE for the future.


Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#3033 - 2013-11-30 23:33:13 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

To be honest, The Mittani was in favor of Incarna two months before it was delivered.

He was not the only one to have a disgusting surprise when it actually launched, of course.


May I... don't be too much in hurry to judge.
Only bracuse 2-3 idiots of them post **** on the forum doesn't mean they are all a bunch of mental retards. Even if some of their forum poster works hard to make it look so.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3034 - 2013-12-01 00:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
3 personal attack posts were removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3035 - 2013-12-01 00:22:52 UTC
Off-topic post removed.

Forum rule 26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#3036 - 2013-12-01 00:26:58 UTC
Still Waiting.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3037 - 2013-12-01 12:09:36 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Still Waiting.


Alice... your hair! Shocked

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3038 - 2013-12-01 12:44:21 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Lipbite wrote:
Personally (as programmer) I think "WiS is costly" idea is (to put it mildly) not entirely true since CCP already has developed framework / engine - it's like 80% of all investments needed. Unlike in FiS CCP doesn't have to be careful with implementation of player interactions in WiS i.e. putting new ships into the game require tons of research to predict meta changes while WiS meta doesn't exist and can be almost anything.

P.S. There is high chance 2 new space sandbox games will have WiS in 2014. Can't wait.



Yes, this too.

So-called "FiS" is old, solid and in deepth developed. Needs fixes, tuning, mantainence, improvements, but in general works fine.

Proble is that being so in deepth and devleoped across 10 years is also harder to expand. Even small adds (like new ships) requires tons of balancements and nerfs and so on. Any major improvement risk to break some core mechanics and requires an huge effort (and costs). In fact CCP avoid to do anything relevan in the FiS area.

On the countrary WIS is one of those EVE improvements (not the only one) that could allow to expand the EVE universe and add brand new options with no risk to mess the existing gameplay.


Tweaking, fixing, small improvements, this is all good and needed, but it only caters to a playerbase that is already fine with the game, do not expand the gameplay nor the playerbase: I don't see someone that never played EVE willing to give a try because "oh wow, now they changing the warp speed, I've to try this game" nor I see an old player coming back because "wow, they nerfing T3, I've to come back to EVE"

The point is if one think that EVE have to grow or not.
Actually CCP money seems to be more on a rush to find other games more than on trusting EVE for the future.




The worst that WiS could do for FiS, would be that it was so *awesome* that people stopped playing the FiS side and FiS resented from lower population. But then, lower population is exactly where FiS is heading. EVE as a game tells to most of the new players "go away", and it's been running out of new players for a while.

The new players may go away on the spot or may go away two to three years later, once they get stuck in the wrong side of the game, but the fact is that there is only one way to become a long time player and that way is purely accidental as it relies on uninformed choices and sheer randomness.

You must find the right people, who do the right thing, and pick them from the background noise of 90% of wrong people doing the wrong things. Many are the called and few the chosen, and so in case that you become a long-lasting player, you can be proud of it... but in the process of becoming the chosen, CCP has dismissed 10 guys whe weren't like you, and also has lost their money.

All that is so embedded in the existing core game, that it can't be changed. The FiS core game is what it is, and it's so complex after 10 years that every litle change risks a landslide of angry veterans. It doesn't takes 6 months to restat a ship, it takes 6 months to restat a ship against all other 400 types. And the more it goes, the harder it si to just stay in place, let alone try to grow.

So if FiS is not growing and can't sustain CCP, then CCP haves two paths: add not-FiS to EVE and make it grow again, or dismiss EVE growth and find a replacement.

And they're going the later way. The fact that they swear and vow to do only FiS with the less and less people left as they're transfered to other projects should be clear enough. It turns that 60% of the last expansions were made by litherally 6 developers - CCP Fozzie & friends. What is doing everyone else? WoD, DUST, Valkyrie, backend recoding and mobile apps.

And then they state that, oh, avatars are too costly for EVE. Yes. It will be more costly when CCP employees start getting "Thank you but you're fired" letters because it was too costly to draw in new players to EVE from a shrinking niche and against serious competition.

MS Crowd Control Productions had a almost lethal encounter with the Incarna lows, and it's been taking water ever since. In the long run, it will be the slow leaking of its battered hull what will sink it, rather than the dramatic leak open after the crash.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3039 - 2013-12-01 16:27:04 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Back at the end of February CCP t0rfifrans announced Team Avatar and that one of our priorities was prototyping, specifically to:

"...create playable gameplay prototypes of gameplay features and try them out within the team, and within the company... The purpose of all this prototyping is to make sure we provide a strong vision for avatar gameplay, have a good demonstrable idea of why it is engaging and better understand the technology we will need to create in order to make it a reality."

The prototype itself has been finished and has been presented internally to the company stakeholders, the CSM and finally to the company as a whole. The feedback from that was overwhelmingly positive. So on to the information!

Extra-Vehicular Activity, Wrecks and Exploration

There has been an idea kicking around CCP for a long time now about an ideal starting point for avatar gameplay. That is exploring hazardous environments in order to get awesome stuff. Think scanning down a site before entering it in order to find and salvage artifacts, technology and other goodies. Sounds straightforward and it would be but for the dangerous nature of delving into long lost places where time has taken its toll on the structure and the previous owners may not have left things in a benign state. In true EVE style throw in the added dangers of lurking competition and things have a chance to go south fast. The inspiration for this comes from a lot of different places, back to the original Aliens films, Event Horizon, the cleanup of Chernobyl, high-altitude mountaineering, games such as Space Hulk, Minecraft and Moonbase Alpha, to name just a few.

Over three months we concentrated on the minute by minute gameplay of actually being inside a long abandoned structure, the hazards that it would contain and how the players might deal with them and any uninvited guests. We used the Unity engine which is a great game engine for prototyping in as it lets us create environments and gameplay very, very fast and iterate on it equally quickly. A lot of our art is much more abstract (a "grey box") than you’d see in a final game. This is due to us concentrating on the gameplay first and foremost whilst also recognizing that ambience plays an important role in how a game feels. We do throw in the occasional EVE asset here and there for flavor but those are not descriptive of any final theming or style.

The gameplay premise is simple, players move through our abandoned structures with their fitted Extra-Vehicular Activity suit, using their wits, tools and teammates to deal with the hazardous environment. Some of us are enthusiastically and maliciously killing teammates for personal gain. We’ve even allowed two teams into the environment to really let all hell break loose.

It’s a part of the EVE Universe

There have been a lot of questions on the forums about how this integrates with EVE. Whilst this isn’t the core focus for us at the moment it is something we are thinking about long and hard. Like DUST514, this part of EVE should contribute to the overall economy as well as supporting its own ecosystem. Right now we’re thinking that these abandoned structures are so dangerous, radioactive and toxic, that they can only be entered with special suits. Obviously with access to clones you aren’t worried about radiation and long term health effects of hazardous lifestyles. You probably all smoke and eat lots of bacon as well and besides robots won’t survive the violent EM fields. Robot electronics would toast, thus only teams using gear that involves crude electronics, like found in EM resistant military hardware can go in and recover the technology that lies within.
One example of a link with EVE gameplay we’re thinking of would be to put implant manufacture into the hands of players and making avatar gameplay part of the resource gathering chain it has. We want to make Avatar gameplay a viable and vibrant part of the Universe without forcing anyone that doesn’t want to use it from having to use it.

A benefit from the EVA game is that a lot of the technology that would need to be developed to properly deliver the EVA experience would be directly useful in providing social areas and tools in stations.

That just sounds like one idea...

We decided to concentrate in depth on the one idea that has kept resurfacing from lots of different places within the company. We’ve had several others and collected a lot both internally and from the forums. One example would be a Station based espionage system. The beauty of the EVE Universe is that these ideas aren’t mutually exclusive for the most part. So whilst I think we are fairly sure of the initial gameplay direction there is lots of scope for expansion.
Excellent idea it would make the game more immersive than it already is.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#3040 - 2013-12-01 16:32:38 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

Tweaking, fixing, small improvements, this is all good and needed, but it only caters to a playerbase that is already fine with the game, do not expand the gameplay nor the playerbase: I don't see someone that never played EVE willing to give a try because "oh wow, now they changing the warp speed, I've to try this game" nor I see an old player coming back because "wow, they nerfing T3, I've to come back to EVE"

I completely disagree.

I unsubbed about 2 months after Odyssey hit TQ, 'cause it is probably the weakest expansion CCP did in my opinion. And came back after reading "oh wow, now they changing the warp speed" and about CCP's poorly planned, but still interesting event.

And yes, I think Rubicon is a solid expansion, so kudos to CCP for it.