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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

First post First post
Author
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#641 - 2013-10-07 10:58:12 UTC
Damien Labonte wrote:
I'm a new player, but from what I've seen so far, it would be nice if the cans showed up in the overview... If they do and I just haven't figured out how yet, can you let me know?


Sorry to say they don't Sad
Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#642 - 2013-11-04 03:03:44 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I didn't bother to read all the replies in this thread but from the few I did read, seems I'm not the only one who thinks the Odyssey expansion has dumbed down and nerfed exploration all the way back to the stone age.



DMC




I kinda feel like CCP just hit me on the nose with a rolled up newspaper...scanning=waste of ingame time now. Far too random to make any real ISK, too dangerous in low/null for the reward(I'm risking a 25-30mil cov-ops and fittings for petes sakes...for 3000 ISK of junk?!?), complete waste of time in highsec(Don't do it...just...don't...do it). mingame actually makes me angry...used to be when I found a data/relic site I got really excited now I just ignore them completely.

aeon
Fred Flintst0ne
Deep South Confederate Rebel Corp
#643 - 2013-11-04 04:42:35 UTC
THE NEW HACKING SUCKS> CHANGE IT BACK< EVERYONE I KNOW HATES IT!
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#644 - 2013-11-04 09:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Aeonidis wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I didn't bother to read all the replies in this thread but from the few I did read, seems I'm not the only one who thinks the Odyssey expansion has dumbed down and nerfed exploration all the way back to the stone age.



DMC




I kinda feel like CCP just hit me on the nose with a rolled up newspaper...scanning=waste of ingame time now. Far too random to make any real ISK, too dangerous in low/null for the reward(I'm risking a 25-30mil cov-ops and fittings for petes sakes...for 3000 ISK of junk?!?), complete waste of time in highsec(Don't do it...just...don't...do it). mingame actually makes me angry...used to be when I found a data/relic site I got really excited now I just ignore them completely.

aeon


You're doing it wrong.

Really... really wrong.

Our two man crews make ~5 mil from sites we consider "bad" in null. A "jackpot site" can be worth 500mil+ You need to meet faster hackers, learn which cans to click, and start organizing expeditions better overall.

In fact, there are only two qualities not related to general wormhole/null survival I would say separate good exploration crews from bad ones these days.

Player hacking speed, and anomoly cataloging efficiency. If you pair one really good hacker/scooper with one really good hauler/scanner that can keep notes on multiple systems worth of anoms and direct the hacker... there's a buttload of money to be made violating other people's sovereignity.

Done right, with only two pilots, it's a very fast paced and profitable enterprise. Done wrong, you take 60+ seconds per hack, don't cargo scan cans, scan down all your own sites, click scrap cans, and go home with 3000 ISK of carbon and data sheets.

Also, having a dedicated faction BPC production specialist on staff doesn't hurt when you're getting the best bang for your exploration buck ;)

Like everything in EVE, this works better with teamwork, organization, and good operational planning. Where it's better is that there is very much a time/ISK skill component to hacking now, coupled with the luck that has always been inherant in the systems.

Better still, the annoying requirement of sitting around waiting for salvagers to cycle is over. Exploration, even when you're solo scanning your own sites, is 100% DOING THINGS.

I'd like to see more node types added to the minigame, and maybe some controls on "extreme failure" rolls (Like every resto node on grid past 1 should guarantee a useful counter-node somewhere) or a loot versus time component added, so better/faster hacks spit bonus cans or something.

In addition, Hacking support modules would be nice to go along with the scanning support modules added in Odyssey, in order to further enable different exploration fleet comps and fits.
Photon Ceray
Palmyra Universal Enterprise
#645 - 2013-11-04 10:54:07 UTC
the "mini can" "scatter" "mechanic" is the dumbest thing i've seen in any game. there are no words to describe how retar*ed it is.

i beat the freaking dumb mini game, i should be able to get all the stuff inside.

this retar*ed mechanic didn't actually encourage any "team play" as they call it, nobody ever brought a "friend" just sit there and wait and to click on the **** cans in space. if someone ever brings a friend it's to hack 2 cans at the same time, not sit there like a cow waiting for the grass to grow - aka mini-cans.

furthermore, they're mostly a waste of time. the risk/reward ration has decreased a ton.

i suggest the CCP stops implementing half-assed features that take a 12 years old kid 5 minutes to come up with.

think about MEANINGFUL GAMEPLAY, longevity, creativity, originality, FUN, because you completely fail at all those aspects.

i am sure you're familiar with the saying "people love everything about eve except playing it", do something about that if you want your game to survive in the long term.
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#646 - 2013-11-04 15:31:29 UTC
I do not care for the mini game but I can live with it. Although I do well solo with the loot spew mechanic, the spew for successful hack, is downright awful. It was bad when on SiSi for the first time and is still bad.

Please remove the loot spew.

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#647 - 2013-11-04 20:27:28 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not care for the mini game but I can live with it. Although I do well solo with the loot spew mechanic, the spew for successful hack, is downright awful. It was bad when on SiSi for the first time and is still bad.

Please remove the loot spew.

Agreed 100%

Loot spew is beyond any saving,cannot even count the ways it is bad.

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Jake Shifter
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#648 - 2013-11-08 17:19:11 UTC
Here's my two cents on this obviously inflamatory subject.
1. Loot scattering is an interesting new idea, and somewhat worth implementing, however it has not been done right.
Cans need to have balanced loot, im noticing certain kinds of cans only have crap. But better things in Data, MAterials and Equipment types.

Maybe implement a system where on warping to the site, it automatically calculates the four or five best drops, and either places them IN the wrecks when you're done hacking, like a normal CC, or have it as a guarenteed pickup, maybe add it to the inventory once it detects the cans have all either been picked or despawned. That way your're getting more bang for your buck, and can pick up the cans for what YOU wan, not having to worry as much for collecting crap loot.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#649 - 2013-11-08 18:43:56 UTC
Fred Flintst0ne wrote:
THE NEW HACKING SUCKS> CHANGE IT BACK< EVERYONE I KNOW HATES IT!


Let me assure you: Everyone you don't know hates it too, except for people working at CCP. This is why the new sites are basically the old sites, minus probing.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#650 - 2013-11-08 19:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I didn't bother to read all the replies in this thread but from the few I did read, seems I'm not the only one who thinks the Odyssey expansion has dumbed down and nerfed exploration all the way back to the stone age.



DMC


you and i flamed eachother a bit over this pre-odyssey I believe. You're still wrong. P

  • probe formations and simultaneous probe launch- Very good
  • DSPs removed - pretty much good, although some aspects of DSPs were good
  • Signatures/anomalies available on entering system - depends who you are, imo good for the game
  • ship scanner doesn't lose results - good (this always bothered me, we're in hyper-advanced spaceships)
  • quicker identification of sig type - good
  • shift grav signatures to anomalies, also ice belt change - good
  • T3's out of hisec exploration - Good i guess. Clearly this was not as bad as the pre-odyssey crying indicated
  • hacking minigame, especially removing NPCs from data/relic - good

  • loot scatter - godawful WTF CCP whoever thought of this should stop smoking crack. Please iterate and make can-type identifiable without mousing over, add scatter-able containers to overview already or something. Or better yet remove it entirely. I assume this is some horrible anti-botting measure, if the point of this was really to encourage bringing multiple characters into a profession site then you guys are dumb and don't know anything about explorers.

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Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#651 - 2013-11-09 07:54:36 UTC
The fact that there is now damned near zero learning curve in Exploration is disappointing. Sure it helps to have good skills, but the reward for devoting months of training time to acquiring good skills, and learning how to utilize them? Pretty much nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

Train Racial Frigate to V.
Train Cov Ops to IV.
Train all Scanning Skills to III
Train Mini-Game Skills to IV

Beyond this point, there is not simply diminishing returns, there's vanishing returns.

Re-work Exploration so that, at some point, it actually rewards your dedication in some tangible manner. Access to better sites requiring Lvl V skills, better loot chances, something.

Right now, it's "Fit Analyzers, Cargo Scanner, probe launcher, cloak, MWD, and cargo expanders. Add one of each type of T1 mini-game rig. Off to the races."

Sure, I can use T2 modules, but, for anyone who can do basic math, they're largely unnecessary.

There's no real incentive any more, in terms of a tangible benefit, to devoting anything beyond minimal training time to Exploration.

Not only that, it's BORING! Scan, hack, grab the two or three decent cans, move along, rinse & repeat. A Cov Ops accompanied by a Blockade Runner has absolutely nothing to fear in these sites.

Just think about what I've written. You went too far with the changes, going from Impossible except for a few devoted to the trade (I was one of them) to "Heck with it, everyone's invited!"

Also, the loot spew is just stupid. The only thing it does is irritate people. Repeatedly. Not a good example of thinking the whole process through.
Mipe Kamach
Doomheim
#652 - 2013-11-20 10:33:27 UTC
Came back from a hiatus. I see they still haven't addressed the loot spew joke. Disappointing.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#653 - 2013-11-25 21:31:53 UTC
Mipe Kamach wrote:
Came back from a hiatus. I see they still haven't addressed the loot spew joke. Disappointing.



You should know it takes a lot to get CCP to change their stance on something they thing is brilliant.

nevermind most of us are letting them know at every turn: loot spew is *bleep* we dont want it.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#654 - 2014-01-12 22:41:24 UTC
*Bump*

Cuz while CCP may have forgotten... we never will.
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#655 - 2014-01-13 10:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
Few things.
1) Rats are still present in the highsec static cosmos plexes.

This isn't a huge deal but not being able to resize the hacking window inhibits my ability to monitor my ship and keep doing damage to the rat spawns. These particular rats respawn on a timer and depending on the particular site can be significant incoming damage.

2) Loot spew mechanic present in highsec static cosmos plexes that still contain rats.

This is an issue because it adds another hurdle in collecting the items while trying to manage ship health and fighting respawning rats. It also causes a 50% chance to miss a high value rare item that is confirmed to appear in a random spew container. I have repeated this hundreds of time using two toons and verified that "Takmahl quantum sphere" can appear in any of the spew containers regardless of name. For a single player running the site this has effectively reduced their income by 50% over pre-spew mechanic.

3) Cans near structures can spew containers towards the structure and out of range of the ship.

Port Maphante in Garisas system, to the far right of the room nestled into a corner against a structure, actually has a container that you cannot even get within range of to hack. I have tried burrowing through the structure with AB/MWD from every angle possible and the closest I have gotten to it is 7700m. The only possible way this could be accessed would be using an Echelon with the Purloined Sansha Codebreaker (10km range) but you would need logi support to keep the ship alive and still would not be able to collect the spew containers as they would need to travel 4700m toward you to be within the 3000m tractor range. I have scanned the container and it contains no special loot as compared to the other containers.
Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#656 - 2014-01-15 23:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivlis Eldelbar
My 0.02isk on the state of nullsec exploration as of the current date:

-Data sites are worthless right now, I no longer fit Data Analyzers. I am yet to scan a Data can and regret not having the module after months of exploration.

-The loot spew is... tolerable. It increases the vulnerability of an exploration ship while they try to grab the loot, and if you know what you're after you can almost always get it all. And it still does feel like you're being punished by it, rather than rewarded for being successful at hacking the can; maybe we could get rid of it if you open a can on the first try?
Since there isn't enough isk there to justify more than one player doing the site, I'd say it fails at forcing player cooperation.
It would also be nice if the can types were a bit more meaningful; I mostly go for Materials/Parts, and they both contain the same stuff, while Scraps/Equipment are worthless 99% of the time. Data is situational, since you will always know if it's worth going for those or not, which oddly makes it the only can type that serves a distinct function.

-The minigame is ok, but needs some tweaks. I certainly enjoy it more that the old orbiting a can waiting for a salvager cycle to succeed, but it really gets frustrating sometimes.
My main source of annoyement are Restoration Nodes: other subs you can find and then decide on the best course of action, but these you need to kill asap, always, so they are essentially an automatic hit to your coherence that you can't avoid, because you don't see them coming. Where the rest of the minigame feels like you can strategically solve, Restoration Nodes devolve into a by-the-numbers head-bashing session. All amplified by the fact that the games is sometimes full of them, so it's just a matter of having enough coherence to grind through them all, which seems out of place in EVE. This becomes even more of an issue in ghost sites, where failing a hack means taking a substantial hit from the can, so I rather dislike failing because the RNG threw a ton of these things at me.
The easiest way to solve this would be to implement a cap on how much they can heal other subs, maybe 1.5x or 2x their original health? That would give us the decision: do I want to bash this thing straight up, or can I afford to look around a bit, since it can only do so much? Right now it can make you lose the game unless you headbutt it asap.
The rest of the game is quite well done, with different utilities sinergizing nicely with subs, and more than one solution to most problems

-The payout overall is fine for the time invested, though a bit on the low-end due to more people doing these sites than before. Data needs a buff, as do the Ghost Site loot tables; I've been to quite a few already that had nothing but tools, which begs the question: why would anyone risk a ship worth millions (the only kind that can do those with some safety) for such horrid payouts? You can always be sure of what's in there before npcs spawn, and just leave if it's not worth the try. I must add it's nice that that's the case, since being scrammed before you see all there is is some trit and 10 tools would be absolute bs.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#657 - 2014-01-16 12:17:19 UTC
How are Data Sites worthless? For me they provide up to 30M ISK/site for even less effort than Relic sites because you only need to concentrate on 1 single can if you follow your cargo scan results. They also provide me with free data cores and decryptors (don't even start with opportunity cost. They need to be factored into the calculations like any other material, but you didn't pay for them on the market, thus giving you some more leeway on price dumping.)

The loot spew is -- while irritating at times in certain regions where the nebula makes it hard to see the green cans -- very enjoyable. More than one player also is definitely not necessary if you follow your cargo scan. You'll lose some cans, but the vast majority is claimable, even without the Poteque hardwirings to increase the decay time. Apart from Material/Parts in Relics and Parts only in Datas you can just ignore the rest until you have all the desirable cans and then go to the next hacking container. Again Cargo Scanners are mandatory. If you don't cargo scan the hackable container, don't complain that you miss out on loot.

The minigame is the best new feature of all in Odyssey, even beating the streamlined probing. As you said, it's a lot more enjoyable than the mere sitting on a can, watching the analyzer go round after round and not achieving anything. Frustration is part of this game, not just the minigame. If Restoration Nodes annoy you, destroy as many as you can, and leave the rest. I for myself find those defensive measure that reduce the Attack Points of your virus more annoying. But I don't care much about it. If there are too many RN (I sometimes encounter 6 on one grid, that's a blast I tell you. Cool) or of the other mentioned defenses, I just leave them and explore as much of the grid as possible. If it turns out that I cannot hack the minigame and I lose the can, so be it. You cannot expect that you get everything served to you on the silver platter in EVE. Sometimes you lose things, sometimes you are lucky and get it all.


In case of the Ghost Sites it is similar. You land and cargo scan the cans you see. If there is no good BPC inside, you just leave and don't risk your ship. If you have a can with a good BPC, you go there as quickly as possible, hack the can, take the goodies and leave. If there are 2 containers with good BPC, you need to make a decision: only take one or risk your life. The payout is a bit limited, that's true, but you are by no means in any danger of losing your ship if you don't get too greedy (unless of course you are unlucky in the hacking process). Again, you must not expect to gain everything the game offers you on the banquet: You are to take what you can, and if you are not able to carry everything, you need to try again later and improve.
Payout cannot be increased by CCP by adding more things to the exploration sites. If Datas/Relics give more loot, prices will just drop even further. Less than expected people use the Ascendancy Implants so more BPCs of those would also only result in lower prices. So, if the payout is not in your favor, just leave the Ghost Site and it vanishes without putting you at risk. If you find a Relic/Data site that is not profitable enough, leave it alone completely and move on, or run it completely and make another one spawn somewhere else. The worst tactics of all those whiners I've encountered so far is only doing these sites halfway, leaving the bad containers intact and so blocking spawn of possibly better sites for the constellation/region. It's griefing, of course, but if I then read posts like yours, I cannot help but to run to the toilet and puke. This hypocrisy is inconceivable.

So, all in all, you need to make decisions, which is an intended feature of the new systems, whether it is which cans to grab or which sites to run. It's a good foundation for interesting new features in the future. Especially the minigame should find more application in other areas. Payout depends on players, not primarily on CCP. Players like to destroy prices in the markets, not CCP; henceforth their collective fault for not getting desired payouts in exploration. Risk is also up to the player. CCP gave us choices, you have to decide on them. Also the mindset that everyone is entitled to get everything out of what the game offers needs to change. You cannot expect that, it's simply stupid and childish.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#658 - 2014-01-17 10:08:01 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Fred Flintst0ne wrote:
THE NEW HACKING SUCKS> CHANGE IT BACK< EVERYONE I KNOW HATES IT!


Let me assure you: Everyone you don't know hates it too, except for people working at CCP. This is why the new sites are basically the old sites, minus probing.


The hacking has two things that I hate a lot, and that oddly enough are only mostly found in cheap pay-to-win smartphone games :
1- Clickfest
2- Luck-based result.

Clickfest : The scattering mechanic has added nothing to the gameplay and has never been what the player asked for. The hacking minigame just asks for people to click again and again and again... If you've ever run ghost sites you know what I'm talking about. Poor mouse. And I thought that you had learned something with PI :D

Luck-based result : Sure there is some slight decision macking by choosing when to activate your bonuses and if you open containers or not. But for most part it is luck... and this is bad.

And I'm not even mentionning Wormhole sites, in which the minigame has been added WITHOUT reducing the number of cans. Seriously this is bad too, and I mean it, B-A-D ;D

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#659 - 2014-01-17 12:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
How is luck based bad? And it is not just since Odyssey luck based; in contrast it also was luck based before. Moreover, I really like to click a lot over a grid and be done with the hacking in under 5 minutes than having to wait 15 minutes on a can and watch my hacker run mad circles without any result.

And again I have to stress that, if you use a Cargo Scanner, you don't have any luck involved in the looting. Only the grid can be in bad favor.

A thing that I personally find annoying, however, is the fact that even if you click on a scatter container it sometimes takes a second or two before the tractor beam starts working and by then some containers already have decayed. This communication lag between the client and the server is massively irritating.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#660 - 2014-01-21 13:22:16 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How is luck based bad? And it is not just since Odyssey luck based; in contrast it also was luck based before. Moreover, I really like to click a lot over a grid and be done with the hacking in under 5 minutes than having to wait 15 minutes on a can and watch my hacker run mad circles without any result.


I don't know your specific skill levels but those two times are massive exaggerations for any suitably skilled pilot. I was using the T2 analyzers prior to the hacking game and never had a can go longer than 90 seconds. The vast majority of them were 30-40 seconds or less. Incidentally, after the introduction of the mini game, I can clear even the hardest tier mini games in under 30 seconds; with the mid tier ones being under 15 seconds and lowest tier is always under 8 seconds. Notable changes, I can often finish a mini game faster than a single cycle of the mod. Also, I use less capacitor accessing containers as you can immediately deactivate the mod once the mini game window appears; regardless of how long it takes to complete it. I have used this as an access denial tactic, leaving the window open for upwards of half an hour while I am alt-tabbing my other toon. Something you forget with the luck aspect is that a single person cannot get all the scatter containers. This means that rare drops that can appear in ANY mini container regardless of name, can be missed by a player effectively reducing their site income by 50%. Private message me if you want a really specific, easily repeatable, example of this; 'Bailey' 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plate is a big hint.