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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

First post First post
Author
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#621 - 2013-08-21 19:18:49 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
We are currently in the process of meetings regarding the new hacking feature and we are pushing for further iteration.
So I can't give you an definite yes/no to further iteration as of yet, but it's something that we would very much like to improve upon.

Like all development, it all depends on priority.
Well something you might want to remind the Power That Be during those meetings, is that leaving things in a half-assed state tends to leave your players with a rather pessimistic view of the company. And hack/arch sites are definitely in a half-assed state at the moment. Stop leaving things half done!

The player base can certainly give you guys more feedback after a few months of playing. Just start a new thread and we'd be thrilled to give you our input.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#622 - 2013-08-22 17:10:51 UTC
Tell me one good reason why the feature that was advertised as the big selling point for the last expansion wouldn't be on high priority?

It's kinda like i advertised a big machine gun expansion for my fps, hyped all the players, excited them for it but then on release day only gave them some pistols that look like machine guns. Surely you could see how this would **** off some players and why it should be rather high on the priority list.

Situation with the new exploration sites is very similar. It was advertised as something that it turned out not to be and got pretty useless quickly thanks to the market crashes.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#623 - 2013-08-23 17:47:58 UTC
I don't know about you two but my opinion on hacking has not changed since the final version was released on SISI before odyssey was deployed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#624 - 2013-08-26 14:59:08 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I don't know about you two but my opinion on hacking has not changed since the final version was released on SISI before odyssey was deployed.


Most people's views have't changed since SiSi as there haven't been any noticeable changes since then Big smile

But everyone's views are still different.
Akiko Sciuto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#625 - 2013-08-26 16:59:17 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
The Scatter Mechanic - Plesae, please DON'T get rid of this. It is a nice little challenge that is a bit like gambling, giving me a little of bit of a rush each time I choose a good container. I don't care what anyone else says, I think it is a good thing to have and I will be disappointed if it gets removed.

Personally I don't see this a problem/bad mechnic either. At first I was nerd raging about it too, but once I got used to it and found out which cans to go for it really isn't that bad. So I agree with this.

Orakkus wrote:
Profitability - I have perfect Arch and Hacking skills, and it is a nice and reasonable way for a guy like me (a man with a job, wife, and three kids), to make isk without spending hours upon hours upon hours ratting or mining. It isn't EASY to make money, but it isn't time-consuming, either.

I would like to see the loot tables tweaked a bit, as with more people doing exploration now, the value of loot dropped in these sites has decreased quite a bit.

Orakkus wrote:
Mini-game Challenge - I think the challenge of the mini-game is just about right. Even with the best possible virus offense and defense (ships/rigs/skills), I still lose one from time to time.

For the most part I would agree, but every now and again you get hacks with three, four and five restoration nodes which really gives you no chance of a succesful hack (or maybe I just really suck at the mini-game ^_^).

Orakkus wrote:
Interfaces BPCs - I could wallpaper a titan with how many of these things I get each week. Cut the spawn rate in half. And is there any other use for the parts we get to make these interfaces either?

Yeah couldn't agree more, they are less then worthless at this stage. Lower the drop rate please.


One other point I would like to make is that you have stated you want exploration to be a team effort, so that you would need some friends to be able to collect everything that is dropped. Well I regularly do exploration with a friend and one really annoying thing keeps happening to us. We keep tractoring the same can, tying both of us up until one of us wins the tug-o-war over the the can. Which is rather conterproductive to the whole team effort thing you guys were so keen about.
So I would like the tractor beam to lock on to cans faster to lessen the chance of this happening
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#626 - 2013-08-26 20:21:04 UTC
Issue: Scatter boxes are too small and move too fast.
Fix: WAY LARGER click zones and slower movement

Issue: Hisec exploration is a complete waste of time compared to just warping a Venture to a belt.
Fix: play the game live at Tranquility and figure how should be loot tables in order to average 1.5 milion per hour under real conditions.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#627 - 2013-08-27 13:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Issue: Scatter boxes are too small and move too fast.
Fix: WAY LARGER click zones and slower movement

Issue: Hisec exploration is a complete waste of time compared to just warping a Venture to a belt.
Fix: play the game live at Tranquility and figure how should be loot tables in order to average 1.5 milion per hour under real conditions.


i have the same problem with the scatter mechanic, i keep frantically clicking a dozen times per container because i keep missing the **** thing

and high sec data/relic sites, i have the same experience, it's kind of fun, and i really like the new minigames(everything but the scatter), but it's just not remotely worth it.

at the moment i'm sad to have to have to tell my noob friends: "stay the *** away from exploration in high sec, you make about 20x that for the same time spent just doing lvl 3 missions or mining"

even just the anomaly sites, the ones you dont need probes for,
grinding those is between 5x-10x more money per time spent then looking for data/relic sites(in high sec)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#628 - 2013-08-27 13:49:21 UTC
Eraza wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Issue: Scatter boxes are too small and move too fast.
Fix: WAY LARGER click zones and slower movement

Issue: Hisec exploration is a complete waste of time compared to just warping a Venture to a belt.
Fix: play the game live at Tranquility and figure how should be loot tables in order to average 1.5 milion per hour under real conditions.


i have the same problem with the scatter mechanic, i keep frantically clicking a dozen times per container because i keep missing the **** thing

and high sec data/relic sites, i have the same experience, it's kind of fun, and i really like the new minigames(everything but the scatter), but it's just not remotely worth it.

at the moment i'm sad to have to have to tell my noob friends: "stay the *** away from exploration in high sec, you make about 20x that for the same time spent just doing lvl 3 missions or mining"

even just the anomaly sites, the ones you dont need probes for,
grinding those is between 5x-10x more money per time spent then looking for data/relic sites(in high sec)


Yay, and then it turns you just clicked on the garbage can, of them all... Lol

Anyway I haven't seen anyone suggest that hisec exploration is a good career for noobs, and I doubt it was intended to be such. Both SP and money wise, everything else hisec is more profitable.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#629 - 2013-08-27 17:00:54 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Eraza wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
*snip*

*snip*


Yay, and then it turns you just clicked on the garbage can, of them all... Lol

Anyway I haven't seen anyone suggest that hisec exploration is a good career for noobs, and I doubt it was intended to be such. Both SP and money wise, everything else hisec is more profitable.


that's a point though, it's hard(sp wise) AND pointless, um, why is it there then?
surely it's SUPPOSED to be worth the time for SOMEONE?
i'm thinking some balance changes elsewere messed it up
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#630 - 2013-08-27 20:04:06 UTC
Eraza wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Eraza wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
*snip*

*snip*


Yay, and then it turns you just clicked on the garbage can, of them all... Lol

Anyway I haven't seen anyone suggest that hisec exploration is a good career for noobs, and I doubt it was intended to be such. Both SP and money wise, everything else hisec is more profitable.


that's a point though, it's hard(sp wise) AND pointless, um, why is it there then?
surely it's SUPPOSED to be worth the time for SOMEONE?
i'm thinking some balance changes elsewere messed it up


I think that it was modified as something people does on top of something else. On its own it's a dirt poor activity unless you already are living in lowsec/nullsec and have access to worthier exploration content just because you're there.

I can't picture anyone bothering to go out of hisec just to find better exploration content.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#631 - 2013-08-27 23:27:59 UTC
I can't believe, after all the negative feedback we've done, that the hacking minigame is still in place.

I thought that the Eve community was better than that. Eve is a game where knowledge is the key, when you know the mechanics it's easier, but you have to take the time to adapt, learn, assimilate, reproduce.

Here we have a god damned clickfest with 100% of epic randomness. No knowledge requiered, no way to have any indication about what the next node is going to give, there are just some times when you loose the minigame and you know you couldn't have done better as you have perfect skills and fully rigged ship.

One flagrant example, a few hours ago when I was recording a french walkthrough of the hacking minigame with my civilian hacking module : four remaining nodes, first a choice between two nodes, then two nodes one after the other with only one possible path. There was three defense subsystem for these four lasts node, and with my 25 coherence the whole minigame was just decided by complete randomness for choosing the path with two defensive, or the path with one.

Speaking about clickfest, we can also say the same about the looting container thing. Bring a friend with you so that he can be bored while you hack ? Come on, you need to fire the genius who got the idea ! The only great solution would be if this very bad minigame turned into a nice coop game if you are two to hack the container, so that the other person isn't waiting, and it also becomes a multiplayer minigame (you know, in a multiplayer environnement, a bit of teamplay wouldn't hurt).

Well anyway my point is that there is no word to express how much I feel that our money was poorly invested into some bad game design. A bad idea can happen, but there has to be someone into the developpement process that can put a veto when devs needs help to step back and look at their own ideas with an objective point of view.

Let's hope that everything gets fixed for the winter expansion, but I doubt it sadly.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#632 - 2013-08-28 15:35:02 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I can't believe, after all the negative feedback we've done, that the hacking minigame is still in place.

I thought that the Eve community was better than that. Eve is a game where knowledge is the key, when you know the mechanics it's easier, but you have to take the time to adapt, learn, assimilate, reproduce.

Here we have a god damned clickfest with 100% of epic randomness. No knowledge requiered, no way to have any indication about what the next node is going to give, there are just some times when you loose the minigame and you know you couldn't have done better as you have perfect skills and fully rigged ship.

One flagrant example, a few hours ago when I was recording a french walkthrough of the hacking minigame with my civilian hacking module : four remaining nodes, first a choice between two nodes, then two nodes one after the other with only one possible path. There was three defense subsystem for these four lasts node, and with my 25 coherence the whole minigame was just decided by complete randomness for choosing the path with two defensive, or the path with one.

Speaking about clickfest, we can also say the same about the looting container thing. Bring a friend with you so that he can be bored while you hack ? Come on, you need to fire the genius who got the idea ! The only great solution would be if this very bad minigame turned into a nice coop game if you are two to hack the container, so that the other person isn't waiting, and it also becomes a multiplayer minigame (you know, in a multiplayer environnement, a bit of teamplay wouldn't hurt).

Well anyway my point is that there is no word to express how much I feel that our money was poorly invested into some bad game design. A bad idea can happen, but there has to be someone into the developpement process that can put a veto when devs needs help to step back and look at their own ideas with an objective point of view.

Let's hope that everything gets fixed for the winter expansion, but I doubt it sadly.



the minigame is not that bad, the civilian sites in training are of course effortless, it gets a little challenging on other empire sites(enough to be kind of fun actually), and i hear those null sec hacking minigames are actually VERY hard

the loot spew thing needs to go away though, the only way i can be sure to avoid a click fest, and then still missing something, is for me to bring someone, to be bored out of his mind, while i play a minigame, just for the loot spew..
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#633 - 2013-08-28 17:51:55 UTC
Eraza wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Stuff



the minigame is not that bad, the civilian sites in training are of course effortless, it gets a little challenging on other empire sites(enough to be kind of fun actually), and i hear those null sec hacking minigames are actually VERY hard


Well imagine in wormhole space where the sites weren't redone, and every container with this ridiculously tiny amount of loot is a hard minigame.

How much container do you have in null ? If I recall correctly, around five. Now in wormhole it's more around fifteen.
Believe me, just run ONE data site in a wormhole C4 or more, and you'll understand what a clicfest is, especially when you have to try multiple times for some containers... You'll hate that before the end of the site, and it is only the FIRST site you've done.

So, when you "hear" things about nullsec hacking minigame, I experienced them. And believe me, they achieved to do the only thing that can be actually worse than cycling a module and waiting for it to trigger.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#634 - 2013-08-29 13:34:26 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Eraza wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Stuff



the minigame is not that bad, the civilian sites in training are of course effortless, it gets a little challenging on other empire sites(enough to be kind of fun actually), and i hear those null sec hacking minigames are actually VERY hard


Well imagine in wormhole space where the sites weren't redone, and every container with this ridiculously tiny amount of loot is a hard minigame.

How much container do you have in null ? If I recall correctly, around five. Now in wormhole it's more around fifteen.
Believe me, just run ONE data site in a wormhole C4 or more, and you'll understand what a clicfest is, especially when you have to try multiple times for some containers... You'll hate that before the end of the site, and it is only the FIRST site you've done.

So, when you "hear" things about nullsec hacking minigame, I experienced them. And believe me, they achieved to do the only thing that can be actually worse than cycling a module and waiting for it to trigger.


yeah, HATE the click fest, especially when most of the clicks end up giving me data sheets and coal, and such nonsence, trade goods so worthless it's actually worth LESS then the same m3 of T1 ammo

it makes me feel like i'm going through the npc's garbage, hoping they accidentally threw something useful out with their trash..
like i'm one of the "can people" i see going through MY garbage, hoping i threw out soda cans..
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#635 - 2013-08-29 22:59:58 UTC
Im constantly running sites in null and i got perfect skills for relic sites. I barely fail at them using a covert ops frigate but its getting tired to do the minigame. Its just annoying that after all the work you have done (scanning and then doing a clickfest) that you actually have to pick the scatter containers up. Couldnt we just simply grab the stuff out of the can instead?
My arm starts to hurt after doing lots of sites. I would prefer it if we just do it the old fashion way and sit there and wait.
I allready have to pay attention to local, d-scan and on top the mini game and loot mechanics.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#636 - 2013-09-07 10:47:38 UTC
Bumping for GREAT JUSTICE.

And hopes that Devs will give us some sort of feedback on whether or not Exploration will be addressed substantially in the Winter update.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#637 - 2013-09-17 16:55:21 UTC
The minigame isn't too bad, even if I could easily live without it. The loot spew mechanic weirds me out, though.

I like to pretend to be a space archaeologist and I keep thinking about how strange it is to analyze let's say an old Talocan wreck only for it to suddenly vomit stuff into space. That's just absurd. The mad clickfest to catch the cans is just the icing on the **** sundae for me.

The trash items like carbon or data sheets are another thing. Wouldn't it be neat if instead of finding useless junk you could find some kind of lore item relating to what you are analyzing? Like if you analyze old Angel remnants, some of the trash could be stuff like a short diary from some long-dead Angel pirate or you could find something about the history of the Talocan by analyzing something left from them.

For all I care, you could just randomly replace some of the junk inside a can with a lore item, that way even if you click the wrong can or are just plain unlucky, you could at least have something more interesting then a bunch of old hydrogen batteries.

The lore items would spice up the game, even outside of the exploration-business: Years from now you could theoretically find some player willing to pay high prices for a rare lore item, just so they can finish their collection. No-one would pay for a bucket of coal, though. Even though both are equally worthless ISK-wise. Just a random idea I had.
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#638 - 2013-09-17 17:29:21 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:

The trash items like carbon or data sheets are another thing. Wouldn't it be neat if instead of finding useless junk you could find some kind of lore item relating to what you are analyzing? Like if you analyze old Angel remnants, some of the trash could be stuff like a short diary from some long-dead Angel pirate or you could find something about the history of the Talocan by analyzing something left from them.

For all I care, you could just randomly replace some of the junk inside a can with a lore item, that way even if you click the wrong can or are just plain unlucky, you could at least have something more interesting then a bunch of old hydrogen batteries.

The lore items would spice up the game, even outside of the exploration-business: Years from now you could theoretically find some player willing to pay high prices for a rare lore item, just so they can finish their collection. No-one would pay for a bucket of coal, though. Even though both are equally worthless ISK-wise. Just a random idea I had.


While I have no problem with the mini-game or even the spew mechanic (good tech = good pressurization..), I do think the CCP devs working on Hacking/Archaeology need to figure out something other than junk in the cans.. at least not as much. Typically, while I operate Relic/Data sites in null-sec, this is my thought process after I scan a wreck:

A.) Always go for parts because that group drop the most useful items, i.e. T1 and T2 Rig Materials or Datacores and Invention codes (forgot what those purple discs are called).

B.) If there is a decent BPC (pretty rare) then hit Data containers.

C.) If there isn't any decent BPCs, then go after Material Containers which also include T1 and T2 Rig materials or parts to build analyzers.

D.) Always ignore Scrap and Equipment containers.

Usually I get 90% of a potential payout a particular location has, so inviting a friend to help doesn't really net me any bonus.. in fact, I lose money. What I would love to see would be that scrap and equipment containers contain something of value. Maybe they could contain a single faction weapon, or DUST infantry parts. Valuable, and worth enough to click on, but not so valueable that I ignore materials and parts containers either. It would be nice too for a random "treasure" container to drop from time to time, maybe call it a "lockbox", something that you can pick up but can only open in station. Inside might be something cool, or it might be of little real in game value.

Oh, and please do something about the number of Analyzer BPCs.. they are still way too much.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#639 - 2013-09-20 03:43:43 UTC
I didn't bother to read all the replies in this thread but from the few I did read, seems I'm not the only one who thinks the Odyssey expansion has dumbed down and nerfed exploration all the way back to the stone age.



DMC

Damien Labonte
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#640 - 2013-09-30 17:39:54 UTC
I'm a new player, but from what I've seen so far, it would be nice if the cans showed up in the overview... If they do and I just haven't figured out how yet, can you let me know?

"There is the sky, which is all men's together." -Euripides