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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2681 - 2013-10-26 11:13:27 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The good news, is that he's a big name of the business. He already was a veteran progammer with a notorious portfolio when CCP were planning to make a board game to fund their space videogame.

The bad news, is that the more you try to accomplish, the largar are the chances of a disastrous blunder.

All true...

...but as far as the, possibly cheesy story and boyish presentation go: Keep in mind, CR also matured over the last 20 years... "Lord of War" and "Lucky Number Slevin" should have thought him a thing or two about story telling, I recon. Blink

Also, it may not say much, but look here - 0:23:00 starts the intresting part.


Interesting concept arts. Smile

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2682 - 2013-10-27 19:45:57 UTC
well if it's as good as the hype I will definitely be leaving eve for star citizen. Being happily married, working and looking after a family etc, I can only devote so much time to gaming and eve takes a considerable amount of time to do properly, I'll miss eve but I think I will love star citizen.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2683 - 2013-10-27 20:25:45 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
well if it's as good as the hype I will definitely be leaving eve for star citizen. Being happily married, working and looking after a family etc, I can only devote so much time to gaming and eve takes a considerable amount of time to do properly, I'll miss eve but I think I will love star citizen.


Yeah, I think there are a lot of people who play Eve because there is no alternative, and they're just not really happy with the game as it is. I hope for all these people that Star Citizen fills the niche for them that Eve fails to.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Drew Dawkins
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2684 - 2013-10-27 20:51:55 UTC
I regret more and more buying the EvE CE. sighs
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2685 - 2013-10-27 21:07:57 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Yeah, I think there are a lot of people who play Eve because there is no alternative, and they're just not really happy with the game as it is. I hope for all these people that Star Citizen fills the niche for them that Eve fails to.

There are quite a few, yea... well, actually I will leave for Elite Dangerous first, and them move on to SC/play both.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2686 - 2013-10-27 21:09:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Drew Dawkins wrote:
I regret more and more buying the EvE CE. sighs


I'm quite satisfied as i've got what i wanted from the CE for a very affordable price. Paid 18 million ISK for the white shirt and 23 million for this green and gold coat. Those are about two hours of gameplay.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Jara Blackwind
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2687 - 2013-10-27 22:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jara Blackwind
Well, here are the words of another bitter carebear.

I once started playing EVE because it reminded me somewhat of Elite II: Frontier and Privateer games which I used to miss school for. The "unforgiving and harsh nature", "Nigeria online", "tear harvesting" etc. aspects of EVE were okay as I found my little corner in the sandbox and a few people that more or less supported my bubble of suspended disbelief and kept playing and even PvPing, on and off.

But post-Incarna (as epic fail as it was. No, really, Incarna was beyond epic fail. It was a ******** **** **** of whale-like proportions) the bitter reality had to settle in.

1. CCP, no doubt, considers the existence of the thousand-account nullsec alliances as the epitome of the social function of their game and the subscribers of those accounts as the core player base of EVE.

2. The "content" generated by players in the sandbox (which basically has minimal differences with your average high school yard with some street gang flavour thrown in, complete with ASCII phalluses in local and Jita chat) is of primary value.

3. Whatever NPC content there is serves three basic functions: A. Tutorial. B. Farming ISK. C. Providing barebones framework for the "sandbox" of EVE.

This is The Vision of CCP, and it won't change. Whatever changes will be enacted by the CCP after Incarna fiasco will be aimed to reinforce this vision and, where possible, reaffirm loyalty of the (perceived) core customer base. The Rubicon expansion just underlines this once more.

Аfter SC and Elite IV hit (I backed both), EVE will be Goonswarm Spreadsheets online, and it will drag on (for quite a few years - Ultima and Everquest are still alive in some form!) and slowly die as such.

As for me, I applaud CCP for all they have done, and I've paid them enough subscription money to reward their effort.

But as soon as I could return to the cockpit of my Eagle among the pinkish ice fields of Ross 154 with Aster rising over the horizon and Sirocco Station domes a few miles away, days of EVE for me will be over.

And no, no forum warrior will ever have my stuff. I'd rather contract it all to my alliance; they are mostly good guys/gals and there should be more like them.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2688 - 2013-10-27 23:09:04 UTC
Jara Blackwind wrote:
Well, here are the words of another bitter carebear.

I once started playing EVE because it remindered me somewhat of Elite II: Frontier and Privateer games which I used to miss school for. The "unforgiving and harsh nature", "Nigeria online", "tear harvesting" etc. aspects of EVE were okay as I found my little corner in the sandbox and a few people that more or less supported my bubble of suspended disbelief and kept playing and even PvPing, on and off.

But post-Incarna (as epic fail as it was. No, really, Incarna was beyond epic fail. It was a ******** **** **** of whale-like proportions) the bitter reality had to settle in.

1. CCP, no doubt, considers the existence of the thousand-account nullsec alliances as the epitome of the social function of their game and the subscribers of those accounts as the core player base of EVE.

2. The "content" generated by players in the sandbox (which basically has minimal differences with your average high school yard with some street gang flavour thrown in, complete with ASCII phalluses in local and Jita chat) is of primary value.

3. Whatever NPC content there is serves three basic functions: A. Tutorial. B. Farming ISK. C. Providing barebones framework for the "sandbox" of EVE.

This is The Vision of CCP, and it won't change. Whatever changes will be enacted by the CCP after Incarna fiasco will be aimed to reinforce this vision and, where possible, reaffirm loyalty of the (perceived) core customer base. The Rubicon expansion just underlines this once more.

Аfter both SC and Elite IV hit (I backed both), EVE will be Goonswarm Spreadsheets online, and it will drag on (for quite a few years - Ultima and Everquest are still alive in some form!) and slowly die as such.

As for me, I applaud CCP for all they have done, and I've paid them enough subscription money to reward their effort.

But as soon as I could return to the cockpit of my Eagle among the pinkish ice fields of Ross 154 with Aster rising over horizon and Sirocco Station domes a few miles away, days of EVE for me will be over.

And no, no forum warrior will ever have my stuff. I'd rather contract it all to my alliance; they are mostly good guys/gals and there should be more like them.


Star Ctiizen just hit 25 million less than 6 days after reaching 24 million. Even if such enthusiasm is misplaced or not as sincere as it seems (LTI gray market is blooming, and obviously it relies on buying pledges from CIG), the question remains:

Giving people what they want is a powerful tool. But so far EVE development is at a stage in which it's not just that they don't care nor know what players want -not even CCP themselves know what they want for EVE.

And meanwhile CCP's old habits remain. Just a few days ago, CCP Affinity told a player that if he wanted the best Ghost Sites, he should leave his comfort zone, meaning that high security space will not get the best rewards for those new anomaly sites. i bit my tongue until my wishes to call her an arrogant b*** faded and i was able to write a indignant but civil reminder that hiseccers too pay the game, and later I exposed a sensible way to distribute the best drops between differerent spaces so everyone had a chance to hit jackpot, rather than tell players to F themselves if they want good rewards and can't or don't want to pay the price of leaving hisec. I wonder wether I'll get any response.

EVE is not the game I wanted to play when i joined it. It will never be, in part because it can't. But also because CCP has stopped trying to make it any different than it is. EVE is a dish of reheated porridge which after Rubicon will be given a new presentation and will be microwaved once more to look new and warm.

And that doesn't cuts it. Player built stargates, new pockets of unknown space, space elevators or even virtual reality spaces, those are cool ideas. But not for EVE. It's the same old game since 10 years ago, and 2 years ago it abandoned all intent and all hope to expand in a truly new direction.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2689 - 2013-10-27 23:54:09 UTC
Jara Blackwind wrote:
Well, here are the words of another bitter carebear.

I once started playing EVE because it reminded me somewhat of Elite II: Frontier and Privateer games which I used to miss school for. The "unforgiving and harsh nature", "Nigeria online", "tear harvesting" etc. aspects of EVE were okay as I found my little corner in the sandbox and a few people that more or less supported my bubble of suspended disbelief and kept playing and even PvPing, on and off.

But post-Incarna (as epic fail as it was. No, really, Incarna was beyond epic fail. It was a ******** **** **** of whale-like proportions) the bitter reality had to settle in.

1. CCP, no doubt, considers the existence of the thousand-account nullsec alliances as the epitome of the social function of their game and the subscribers of those accounts as the core player base of EVE.

2. The "content" generated by players in the sandbox (which basically has minimal differences with your average high school yard with some street gang flavour thrown in, complete with ASCII phalluses in local and Jita chat) is of primary value.

3. Whatever NPC content there is serves three basic functions: A. Tutorial. B. Farming ISK. C. Providing barebones framework for the "sandbox" of EVE.

This is The Vision of CCP, and it won't change. Whatever changes will be enacted by the CCP after Incarna fiasco will be aimed to reinforce this vision and, where possible, reaffirm loyalty of the (perceived) core customer base. The Rubicon expansion just underlines this once more.

Аfter SC and Elite IV hit (I backed both), EVE will be Goonswarm Spreadsheets online, and it will drag on (for quite a few years - Ultima and Everquest are still alive in some form!) and slowly die as such.

As for me, I applaud CCP for all they have done, and I've paid them enough subscription money to reward their effort.

But as soon as I could return to the cockpit of my Eagle among the pinkish ice fields of Ross 154 with Aster rising over the horizon and Sirocco Station domes a few miles away, days of EVE for me will be over.

And no, no forum warrior will ever have my stuff. I'd rather contract it all to my alliance; they are mostly good guys/gals and there should be more like them.


Couldn't have said it better myself...

I played elite and freelancer online too, and came to eve when Microsoft switched of the global server and didn't give a rats arse about it. Since oddessy I have been increasingly disappointed with eve and have cancelled my sub for one of my two accounts and am strongly tempted to cancel the other one. If it wasn't for the great guys I fly with who still like eve I probably would., but it's not a great reason to stay as we can all play other games together on teamspeak. CCP need to pull their collective fingers out of their arseholes and stop pandering to the nullbears and fis crowd.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Jara Blackwind
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2690 - 2013-10-28 07:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jara Blackwind
Quote:
fis crowd


The funny part is, that there is no FiS in EVE. There is no "flying" and no "space". There are bubbles of various sizes floating in a viscous liquid with a clearly defined top-down axis. Those bubbles and their states are represented as brackets on a spreadsheet-like overview, from which through a right-click menu you can issue "commands to your 500-meter long spaceship in an epic fleet battle".

Sure, it can be (and often is) fun for various reasons, especially if you have a good FC, but as far as "flying in space" goes, Pacman and Tetris have more immersion than that.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#2691 - 2013-10-28 07:22:01 UTC
Drew Dawkins wrote:
I regret more and more buying the EvE CE. sighs


Yes. I particularly liked how you didn't find out that the golden capsule doesn't show up in your CQ until after we forked over the cash.

Well played CCP.

Greed is still good it seems.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2692 - 2013-10-28 08:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Trii Seo
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And meanwhile CCP's old habits remain. Just a few days ago, CCP Affinity told a player that if he wanted the best Ghost Sites, he should leave his comfort zone, meaning that high security space will not get the best rewards for those new anomaly sites. i bit my tongue until my wishes to call her an arrogant b*** faded and i was able to write a indignant but civil reminder that hiseccers too pay the game, and later I exposed a sensible way to distribute the best drops between differerent spaces so everyone had a chance to hit jackpot, rather than tell players to F themselves if they want good rewards and can't or don't want to pay the price of leaving hisec. I wonder wether I'll get any response.


And this is good. No risk, no ISK. Having "good" sites in high security space would just lead to carebears in overpriced ships farming those sites without the risk of being shot to bits. In fact, it's not exploring the ruthless, 'space Somalia' side of EVE that would kill it - it's the opposite. Without conflict, ships wouldn't be destroyed. Without ships being destroyed, the market would slowly grind to a halt.

The millions behind Star Citizen and a massive feature creep, promises of everything people want, are precisely why I will be taking a detour here. This thing, while initially interesting from an old space-sim perspective (instanced content would never replace EVE, though) now just reeks of a massive scam to the point one wonders if Chris Roberts isn't flying Goon flags in CFC fleets.

And does EVE really need a new direction? It already has its niche: it's a universe made by us, players. We're not pawns in an NPC game playing out roles of heroes that took down a boss in the new expansion. We're gods that roam the stars and build empires that span entire regions.

It's a scary universe, don't get me wrong. NBSI areas are more similar to wastelands from of Fallout or Mad Max rather than actual civilized space - space-oil rigs defended by gun emplacements and battleship fleets, roving maniacs shooting everything that moves and doesn't bear friendly gang flags. But - let's admit it, we kind of made it that way. It all could've been an NRDS heaven if not for fear, greed and distrust.

The only thing we really lack are ways to turn the pathetic piece of wasteland we stuck our banner into and claimed ours into actual, civilized space worth defending. The devs, if anything, need to look into giving us tools to do so.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2693 - 2013-10-28 09:31:08 UTC
I think that if bugs from outer space exist, and watch us, they will eat us before we will be able to reach them with rockets.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2694 - 2013-10-28 09:33:16 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And meanwhile CCP's old habits remain. Just a few days ago, CCP Affinity told a player that if he wanted the best Ghost Sites, he should leave his comfort zone, meaning that high security space will not get the best rewards for those new anomaly sites. i bit my tongue until my wishes to call her an arrogant b*** faded and i was able to write a indignant but civil reminder that hiseccers too pay the game, and later I exposed a sensible way to distribute the best drops between differerent spaces so everyone had a chance to hit jackpot, rather than tell players to F themselves if they want good rewards and can't or don't want to pay the price of leaving hisec. I wonder wether I'll get any response.


And this is good. No risk, no ISK. Having "good" sites in high security space would just lead to carebears in overpriced ships farming those sites without the risk of being shot to bits. In fact, it's not exploring the ruthless, 'space Somalia' side of EVE that would kill it - it's the opposite. Without conflict, ships wouldn't be destroyed. Without ships being destroyed, the market would slowly grind to a halt.


That's wrong. The "good" sites will drop Ascendancy set BPCs. Now, what is a ghost site?

- it's randomly spawned= risk #1 not finding any while you're logged in
- everyone can see it if they as much as look a it = risk #2 competition from the guy who undocked 30 seconds earlier & everyone in local
- the first player to arrive triggers a random hidden timer = risk #3 the NPC spawn before you're done (& other players try to unlock it themselves)
- the loot is destroyed if you fail to hack it = risk #4 the site gets spoiled by failed hacks, either by you or someone else
- the NPC will be powerful enough so only strong ships can withsand them = risk #5 get killed by vicious NPCs
- drops are random = risk #6 even if you do everything right, you may get only carp, supercrap or ubercrap for your efforts

And that, just for the site mechanic itself. Add the usual PvP yadda yadda.

Even in hisec, you're risking to waste your precious connection time by chasing the sites rather than do something more reliable. And then if the hisec sites don't drop BPCs, then they will always drop carp not worth it. Not even the slightest chance to hit jackpot because, according to some arrogant jerks, you "aren't risking enough" and "not leaving your comfort zone".

And that's what you get, lest remind it, after paying them 15 euros each month and spending your precious little leisure time with their game and not someone else's.

You should rather be playing something else... as soon as it's released.

Quote:
And does EVE really need a new direction? It already has its niche: it's a universe made by us, players. We're not pawns in an NPC game playing out roles of heroes that took down a boss in the new expansion. We're gods that roam the stars and build empires that span entire regions.

(...)

The only thing we really lack are ways to turn the pathetic piece of wasteland we stuck our banner into and claimed ours into actual, civilized space worth defending. The devs, if anything, need to look into giving us tools to do so.


EVE's niche is worth around 150,000 subcribers and some 20 million dollars per year. Is that enough for CCP adn TQ's demographics? I it is, then i don't need to say nothing. There is nothing wrong with being a smaller company with a dedicated customer base. It's a vast improvement over trying to ignore all the subscribers who should never had played EVE and wouldn't had played it if they had had a chance.

Which ironically includes all the "good players" not interested to be a demigod.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Flamespar
WarRavens
#2695 - 2013-10-28 10:01:13 UTC
It's not a new direction anyway. More of a deepening of the experience. Exploring an as yet unseen part of the EVE universe.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2696 - 2013-10-28 10:04:19 UTC
The only thing you risk in case of hisec is not getting a cookie. That's it - sides from not getting your reward, you're not risking anything. You can't lose, you can only win. At the very worst you're breaking even. Strong NPCs? Give players a month, hell - two weeks and they'll cook up setups built to withstand them. Give them two more and they will become capable of farming them - like Sleepers.

As usual, they will adapt. Run them in groups and share profits, find the way that nets them the most gain for the smallest possible investment. If they are successful in their venture, they may attract attention and people will adapt to hunt them - making NPC content precisely what it should be, a catalyst to player interaction. Conflict or alliance, killmail or friendship? Yet to be seen.

Leaving the comfort zone means you not only risk not winning - you risk a loss to something way more dangerous than NPCs. Players that can, and will outsmart you, then kill you and take your loot.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2697 - 2013-10-28 10:32:54 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The only thing you risk in case of hisec is not getting a cookie. That's it - sides from not getting your reward, you're not risking anything. You can't lose, you can only win. At the very worst you're breaking even. Strong NPCs? Give players a month, hell - two weeks and they'll cook up setups built to withstand them. Give them two more and they will become capable of farming them - like Sleepers.

As usual, they will adapt. Run them in groups and share profits, find the way that nets them the most gain for the smallest possible investment. If they are successful in their venture, they may attract attention and people will adapt to hunt them - making NPC content precisely what it should be, a catalyst to player interaction. Conflict or alliance, killmail or friendship? Yet to be seen.

Leaving the comfort zone means you not only risk not winning - you risk a loss to something way more dangerous than NPCs. Players that can, and will outsmart you, then kill you and take your loot.


I forgot to mention that ghost site NPCs don't have reward nor drop any loot. They're a total waste of your time.

Ghost sites have been carefully engineered to be not worth it in hisec, and probably elsewhere than sov null and home wormholes. In those places, and specially in sov null, they will be farmed regularly because the inmediate reward will be big and the inmediate risk will be neglectable. And they don't even need to fear any competiton from hisec exploiting of the sites.

They call it "risk vs reward", but it's just CCP's equivalent to tax the poor and subsidize the wealthy.Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2698 - 2013-10-28 10:58:07 UTC
Then just hack&tank? Just like old times then, I'd say - back before Odyssey. Only that back then you also needed to kill the rats.

Remember that in nullsec, safety will come from friendly guns being able to deal with threats before they reach you - or your own ability to run faster than they can chase. Same for competition. If I had to make a guess, those mere few millions a Ghost would be worth in hisec will be a fortune to someone new and will teach him the mechanics. As it should be.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#2699 - 2013-10-28 11:08:14 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The millions behind Star Citizen and a massive feature creep, promises of everything people want, are precisely why I will be taking a detour here. This thing, while initially interesting from an old space-sim perspective (instanced content would never replace EVE, though) now just reeks of a massive scam to the point one wonders if Chris Roberts isn't flying Goon flags in CFC fleets.


Maybe is a scam or a fail. Maybe not. The point is not this, the poinbt is this people (SC crew) is flirting with EVE playerbase and only with some gameplay idea is colelcting an huge amount of $$. This prove there's a huge demand CCP was unable to see or catch. They see this now, the urge to announce a dogfight based game just when the spotlights are moving from EVE to incoming Sci-Fi games that, just a coincidence, are based on dogfight style combat means something.


Trii Seo wrote:
And does EVE really need a new direction? It already has its niche: it's a universe made by us, players. We're not pawns in an NPC game playing out roles of heroes that took down a boss in the new expansion. We're gods that roam the stars and build empires that span entire regions.


As already pointed is not "new". WiS always been in EVE DNA, almost since the release. Eventually is an iteration on some idea badly developed. To be a niche requires a strong strategic vision. Since 3-4 years CCP is acting not like any other mainstream game without having the numbers; nerfing a ship to re-add the same ship in the next patch as faction vrersion, when you nerf a module only to add a new skill that allow to match the old module value and so on... Al this is exactly the same **** Blizzard (or any other mainstream game company) do when they have nothing more to say. A never ending loop based on equipment/dungeons reiteration.

Problem is: they have the numbers to do it. It works for theme park/mainstream games.

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2700 - 2013-10-28 11:19:07 UTC
There's difference between themepark addons and sandbox addons. Themepark relies on addons to survive, as its content depletes rapidly. Sandbox only benefits from additions that expand the ways to have fun in it.

Rebalance like the one CCP is performing, and one done well with some consideration (same for adding ships. You won't get the balance right in the first pass, but they sure look better than say, the Blackops which wound up with a hodgepodge of random bonuses barely fitting their style and then were forgotten for a long time.) works well when it comes to revitalizing the content in the Sandbox.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph