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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1841 - 2013-09-20 21:28:35 UTC
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

make of it what you will, but theres the data

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1842 - 2013-09-20 21:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhes
Varius Xeral wrote:
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

make of it what you will, but theres the data


That graph illustrates perfectly why CCP should stay out of the WiS business. There's some additional analysis here: http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2013/08/version-40-thoughts-and-comments.html

Here's the important part:

Quote:
Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game.

CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago.

At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1843 - 2013-09-20 22:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Rhes wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

make of it what you will, but theres the data


That graph illustrates perfectly why CCP should stay out of the WiS business. There's some additional analysis here: http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2013/08/version-40-thoughts-and-comments.html

Here's the important part:

Quote:
Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game.

CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago.

At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world.


I have read you`re input there is nothing that declarable about wis out of the picture.
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1844 - 2013-09-20 22:24:00 UTC
Thank you both for the informative links. I still maintain that it was the microtransactions (and $1000 jeans) comments that fueled the ragequitting rather than the walking in stations and the article Rhes quotes backs this up. But as microtransactions and avatar play were introduced at the same time, it can be hard to separate the two.

That makes me wonder if this entire thread wasn't a trial balloon by CCP: tell the community they're working on a prototype--just a prototype, mind you, and it's finished, too! So don't be afraid--and gauge customer reaction to the idea of avatar play. Actually, the more I think about it, the surer I am that this is the case. It's no wonder that CCP is a little PTSD over anything Incarna related. They know we hate the idea of pay to win microtransactions, but what about WiS?

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1845 - 2013-09-20 22:28:13 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
I have read you`re input there is nothing that declarable about wis out of the picture you are just trolling.

He wasn't tolling. That was useful information that I, a WiS partisan, asked for. We disagree that WiS is damaging to Eve, I'm pro he's con obviously, but he wasn't trolling there.

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1846 - 2013-09-20 22:38:35 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
I have read you`re input there is nothing that declarable about wis out of the picture you are just trolling.


Maybe you didn't play when Incarna was released. WiS and microtransactions are tied together and both are bad for the game.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1847 - 2013-09-20 22:50:31 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
I have read you`re input there is nothing that declarable about wis out of the picture you are just trolling.


Maybe you didn't play when Incarna was released. WiS and microtransactions are tied together and both are bad for the game.


They really aren't. There is no reason any future WiS content needs to have micro-transactions associated with it.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1848 - 2013-09-20 22:53:48 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
I have read you`re input there is nothing that declarable about wis out of the picture you are just trolling.


Maybe you didn't play when Incarna was released. WiS and microtransactions are tied together and both are bad for the game.


They really aren't. There is no reason any future WiS content needs to have micro-transactions associated with it.


Here's the best thing, though. Considering how successful the game has been since CCP decided to refocus on real Eve content there's no need for them to worry about WiS or microtransactions. Everybody wins!

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1849 - 2013-09-20 23:09:33 UTC
Rhes wrote:

Here's the best thing, though. Considering how successful the game has been since CCP decided to refocus on real Eve content there's no need for them to worry about WiS or microtransactions. Everybody wins!


Yes, retribution was very successful. So far though no data on Odyssey, which I personally think was a flop. The closest thing we have to data talking about subs since Odyssey is the average active number of people logged in. Those numbers went up on the release of Odyssey, and instead of staying up like they did after Retribution they have been falling continuously since to the point they are now as low as they were pre-retribution.

Not that I think this affects the WiS argument. The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it. The only thing that really matters is whether people want it and whether it would be good for the game. If WiS content could attract more subs than we are currently attracting then the current subs are irrelevant. I personally think it could do that.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1850 - 2013-09-20 23:15:55 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it.


In a subscription game it's the only metric that matters. I don't know why people keep wanting to ignore it.

If they scrapped their current plan and went all in on WiS and it caused most of the subscribers to stop giving CCP money would you count that as a success?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1851 - 2013-09-20 23:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Arduemont wrote:
Not that I think this affects the WiS argument. The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it. The only thing that really matters is whether people want it and whether it would be good for the game. If WiS content could attract more subs than we are currently attracting then the current subs are irrelevant. I personally think it could do that.

The subs... or better, active players, because I don't think most people unsub right away (PLEX etc.)... are going down 'cause CCP hasn't added anything intresting since Retribution. The new exploration mechanics are a nice to have, but thruth be told, EVE never was a great exploration game... the universe is just too boring for that... and hacking minigames/loot spraying wracks? Sorry, but that's no content... not when compared to Retribution, or any other expansion, for that matter.

The next expansion better bring something really fresh/new/good... not necessarily WiS, but something equally imagniative... or active players will continue to drop, until we are where EVE has been after Incarna... I'm not beeing pessimistic here, only realistic... the novelty of the Retribution changes has worn of, that's obvious fact.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1852 - 2013-09-20 23:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it.


In a subscription game it's the only metric that matters. I don't know why people keep wanting to ignore it.

If they scrapped their current plan and went all in on WiS and it caused most of the subscribers to stop giving CCP money would you count that as a success?


You really didn't understand what I said. I apologise if I wasn't clear enough. I am saying that as long as WiS would increase subs, it doesn't matter how good the game is doing at the moment. I agree, subs are the only thing that matters, but the current subs are irrelevant. It is only the potential subs gained over the current that matter.

The fact that the game is doing fine does not mean it can not do better. That is what I am saying.

When I said "The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it.", I meant it. Because The number of people who could be subbed, is more important an indicator in this argument.

Shalua Rui wrote:

The subs... are going down 'cause CCP hasn't added anything intresting since Retribution


Careful. We don't know what subs are doing yet. We may have the suspicion that they are going down, but we can't know. We can assume they are because the active player averages are going down, but that's as good as we get.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1853 - 2013-09-20 23:37:54 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it.


In a subscription game it's the only metric that matters. I don't know why people keep wanting to ignore it.

If they scrapped their current plan and went all in on WiS and it caused most of the subscribers to stop giving CCP money would you count that as a success?


You really didn't understand what I said. I am saying that as long as WiS would increase subs, it doesn't matter how good the game is doing at the moment. I agree, subs are the only thing that matters, but the current subs are irrelevant. It is only the potential subs gained over the current that matter.

The fact that the game is doing fine does not mean it can not do better. That is what I am saying.

When I said "The number of people subbed has nothing to do with it.", I meant it. Because The number of people who could be subbed, is more important an indicator in this argument.


This is all based on speculation there is no data that can be backing it up. Even if the login numbers is lower then "normal". perhaps some friends left for that particular reason but that will not say everyone is doing that for the same purpose.

The only thing we can do is wait. Speculation on some matter will not help even when you find the answer the damage is already done.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1854 - 2013-09-20 23:40:41 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I am saying that as long as WiS would increase subs, it doesn't matter how good the game is doing at the moment. I agree, subs are the only thing that matters, but the current subs are irrelevant. It is only the potential subs gained over the current that matter


Your problem is asserting that WiS would increase subs when past history indicates, rather clearly, that it has the opposite effect.

The only time in the history of Eve that subscription count went down was when WiS was released.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1855 - 2013-09-20 23:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I am saying that as long as WiS would increase subs, it doesn't matter how good the game is doing at the moment. I agree, subs are the only thing that matters, but the current subs are irrelevant. It is only the potential subs gained over the current that matter


Your problem is asserting that WiS would increase subs when past history indicates, rather clearly, that it has the opposite effect.

The only time in the history of Eve that subscription count went down was when WiS was released.


So far i know the subscription was going up even better than expected however after a small time the was dropping fast because of the "older subs leaving" because the are waiting what the want to get in that expansion however the get a broken Mechanic and more bugs even the WiS was release. So the blame WiS about the delay of the fixs the want to have.Taking them almost 2 years to do it right this is where the subscribes fails down. old members quit rage it about the new expansion. blaming WiS for the delay.. Sounds easy right? and thats was the case back then. Not that WiS is a failer.

The work so hard to make WiS good that the forgot about the core players. And that was a big mistake CCP knows that now the focus more in eve then in WiS but wis is not out yet so a small team was release to keep WiS a promise change while the rest focus more on bugs and small new things. And thats what we have now.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1856 - 2013-09-20 23:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I am saying that as long as WiS would increase subs, it doesn't matter how good the game is doing at the moment. I agree, subs are the only thing that matters, but the current subs are irrelevant. It is only the potential subs gained over the current that matter


Your problem is asserting that WiS would increase subs when past history indicates, rather clearly, that it has the opposite effect.

The only time in the history of Eve that subscription count went down was when WiS was released.


That's not true. There was an almost identical drop in subs following Tyrannis*. Also, I would like to say, we never got Walking in Stations. We got 1 crap room. We also got ridiculously over-priced micro transactions, a massive amount of controversy and almost no other content from that expansion because they spent the entire time developing Carbon (which, by the way, we have been reaping the benefit of ever since).

The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".

*I correct myself, slightly worse drop in subs following Tyrannis.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1857 - 2013-09-20 23:49:07 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1858 - 2013-09-20 23:54:29 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?


So what your saying is, CCP is **** and we should get used to it? Well excuse me for wanting to have some faith in CCP. As for would I want CCP to neglect spaceship content over WiS? They don't have to neglect it. Also, it's really not a small group of people. This is why you are the minority in this discussion.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1859 - 2013-09-20 23:57:31 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?


So what your saying is, CCP is **** and we should get used to it? Well excuse me for wanting to have some faith in CCP. As for would I want CCP to neglect spaceship content over WiS? They don't have to neglect it. Also, it's really not a small group of people. This is why you are the minority in this discussion.


Nope. I think CCP is a pretty good company and they have a great spaceship game that I would hate to see ruined.

And if you think I'm in the minority of players you might want to scroll up and look at the graph again. Or just read back through this thread...there are a few dozen people at most who just can't accept that Eve doesn't need emotes or dance parties to be a great game.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1860 - 2013-09-21 00:00:06 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?


about Dust however its doomed to die or some miracle need to be happening to keep that game alive. http://crossingzebras.com/2013/06/21/the-tragedy-of-dust-514/

But thats apart from WiS.