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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#461 - 2011-11-10 17:59:08 UTC
Giving a special ship bonus to an entire race of ships is a really bad solution. As a general rule, T1 hulls have two bonuses, and giving Gallente another one on top of that would be unbalanced.

What I've suggested a couple of times is to increase base speed and agility of Gallente ships but also dramatically increase their mass. This would make Gallente the fastest sub-MWD race (allowing them to keep on top of tackled targets while scrammed), but would also keep them a bit slower at MWD speeds than Minmatar. It would also reduce the impact on speed and agility of adding armour plates.

Gallente shouldn't be faster than Minmatar. They should be able to run them pretty close, but Minmatar should still retain their speed advantage (within their own class - a Thorax should be able to easily catch a Hurricane, but a Brutix ordinarily shouldn't)

Plenty of people have said it, but it's worth repeating - the falloff modifier of TEs and TCs needs to be halved. That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content, but wouldn't be able to do decent damage at the stupid ranges they currently can with autocannons. Autocannons themselves need a tracking nerf so that they're less effective in blasters' turf.

Finally, blasters and railguns still need to do more damage at the ranges they already work in. Antimatter, Void and Javelin should do another 10% or so damage, making blasters do the kind of damage they really need to to make up for their range, and allowing railguns to compete with pulse lasers in that medium range wasteland between blaster optimal and railgun sniping.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2011-11-10 18:00:12 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:
Cry


Cry more.
Bhaal Chinnian
#463 - 2011-11-10 18:04:06 UTC
Ok so far we bave:
1) Give Blasters better damage-- done, but not done to a high enough degree that offsets the real problem---distance to target.
2) Give Blasters longer Range
3) Give Gallente ships highest speed to counter range issues
4) Give Gallente ships(not just the Arazu/Lachesis) boosts to Damps to(hopefully) counter range issues

2 & 3 are most likely not going to happen ,since that is the realm of the Minmatar.

#4 is viable, just add an Sensor Damp slot(much like we have turret/missle slots)

Another suggestion is to Up the # of drones Gallente can currently use.
I've been told that in the days of old, Gallente ships were able to field up to 10 drones and this was nerfed due to lag in fleet fights.

Fine ok, here's a suggestion that may mitigate the lag in large fleet fights..

If X# ship are on the field then if ship Z has >5 drones then group alll their drones into 1 Unit(1 drone model in space)

Bye bye lag issue concerning drones. hello more dps. And for the drones..add some Med & Small web drones OR give the (large) web drones bonuses to effectiveness AND hp when fielded by Gallente ships.

Roll I dunno, just trying to help out .....

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2011-11-10 18:07:29 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
but would also keep them a bit slower at MWD speeds than Minmatar. It would also reduce the impact on speed and agility of adding armour plates.

Gallente shouldn't be faster than Minmatar. They should be able to run them pretty close, but Minmatar should still retain their speed advantage


Minnies would still have the ability to kite to their hearts content, unless on the off chance the pilot is horrible and/or isn't paying attention.

Two pilots in ships of the same class starting at a fair distance from one another (something like 20km) should have an equal chance to win an engagement. How would a gallente pilot win in this very common circumstance if neither pilot made a mistake? Answer: He never would.

Is that balance?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#465 - 2011-11-10 18:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I have a feeling I just reversed a few stats - dammit sorry...

I'll try get them switched around, but I think switching the medium short range names around with the large short range names should do it.

Also I really do like giving the Gallente blaster boats more structure hehe
Sir Fury
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2011-11-10 18:16:05 UTC
As I mentioned in post #456,

an MWD/AB bonus to Gallente blaster platforms solves the issue of Gallente ships being faster than Minmatar ships, as long as they have cap to support it. This obviously ignores the tanking issues that are inherent, & more complicated.

Currently we have 2 races which generally tank in either Shield or Armour. Although Blaster platforms being in slower armour ships is counter intuitive, its probably too late in the day to change the racial tanking tendencies.

Its just an idea, but in order to keep the Gallente ships fast without the amour plate & trimark rig penalties, there are 2 options. One is to buff the armour rep bonus. The other is to give an Armour Resistance buff to the Gallente ships. Now this may upset some Amarr users, especially the Sacrilege pilots & their kin. A possible solution to this is to change the traditional Amarr bonus to an Armor HP boost instead of resistance (Though the Sacrilege could maintain its Resistance bonus since it plays much like a blaster boat due to its bonuses to a short range weapon system.) Also, Armor Resistance rigs could forgo the speed penalty for something else, like agility. Keeping it on the trimarks is probably fine.

Playing with Gallente Signature radii can also help. As in a reduced bloom when using a MWD.

Daedalus Arcova wrote:

Gallente shouldn't be faster than Minmatar.


Why? Please explain. Not just state. I am in favour of giving Minmatar the fastest base speeds, but not necessarily effective speeds when using propulsion modules. This is the only way Blasters will work without increasing Blaster range (then it'll become similar to ACs - some distinction should remain)
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#467 - 2011-11-10 18:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Quote:

Why? Please explain. Not just state. I am in favour of giving Minmatar the fastest base speeds, but not necessarily effective speeds when using propulsion modules. This is the only way Blasters will work without increasing Blaster range (then it'll become similar to ACs - some distinction should remain)


Because Minmitar don't have the tank, lower signature, drone bonuses and cool scram e-war or other cool features to let them be balanced if you ever did that. Making Gallente faster, basically is like giving Minmitar the finger and nerfing them. It is not the solution, sorry. Not sure anybody read my previous page post about allowing more overload for the MWD and other features... This thread seems to be on it's own trajectory now.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#468 - 2011-11-10 18:25:49 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
but would also keep them a bit slower at MWD speeds than Minmatar. It would also reduce the impact on speed and agility of adding armour plates.

Gallente shouldn't be faster than Minmatar. They should be able to run them pretty close, but Minmatar should still retain their speed advantage


Minnies would still have the ability to kite to their hearts content, unless on the off chance the pilot is horrible and/or isn't paying attention.

Two pilots in ships of the same class starting at a fair distance from one another (something like 20km) should have an equal chance to win an engagement. How would a gallente pilot win in this very common circumstance if neither pilot made a mistake? Answer: He never would.

Is that balance?


It's also not particularly balanced if the Gallente boat in that engagement can always catch the opponent and therefore always melt it with blasters. Also, as I said in the very next paragraph:

Quote:
The falloff modifier of TEs and TCs needs to be halved. That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content, but wouldn't be able to do decent damage at the stupid ranges they currently can with autocannons. Autocannons themselves need a tracking nerf so that they're less effective in blasters' turf.


It's not speed that makes Minmatar OP. It's the excessive range of their ACs when they slap on a couple of TEs (which they always do). With less damage at range, kiting from outside Null range wouldn't always be a winning tactic.
sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2011-11-10 18:31:12 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Quote:

Why? Please explain. Not just state. I am in favour of giving Minmatar the fastest base speeds, but not necessarily effective speeds when using propulsion modules. This is the only way Blasters will work without increasing Blaster range (then it'll become similar to ACs - some distinction should remain)


Because Minmitar don't have the tank, lower signature, drone bonuses and cool scram e-war or other cool features to let them be balanced if you ever did that. Making Gallente faster, basically is like giving Minmitar the finger and nerfing them. It is not the solution, sorry. Not sure anybody read my previous page post about allowing more overload for the MWD and other features... This thread seems to be on it's own trajectory now.


How about they do ton of dmg until galente gets to them ? Simply because of longer engagement range ? blasters optimal and falloff is crazy low, until galente ships gets in range ( the speed difference wouldn't be that great ), it will get there with half HP...
Or you just want to keep it like it is today ? Gal don't have a slightest chance of killing min,? because they will be flying around out of range smiling and shooting from thweir optimal ????
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2011-11-10 18:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Daedalus Arcova wrote:

Quote:
The falloff modifier of TEs and TCs needs to be halved. That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content, but wouldn't be able to do decent damage at the stupid ranges they currently can with autocannons. Autocannons themselves need a tracking nerf so that they're less effective in blasters' turf.


It's not speed that makes Minmatar OP. It's the excessive range of their ACs when they slap on a couple of TEs (which they always do). With less damage at range, kiting from outside Null range wouldn't always be a winning tactic.


Once upon a time, Gallente used to be the second fastest race. I know you probably do not remember that, but it is a fact. Less damage at range would only mean it takes longer for the Mini to kill the Gallente pilot.

That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content

Read your statement and tell me that is balance. All control is on the Minimatar side of the table. They outrange and out pace any Gallente ship. That is not a fun experience for the one being kited until you get dizzy from circling him. Thats not even counting that Minmatar have STASIS WEB RANGE BONUSES.
Sir Fury
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2011-11-10 18:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Fury
Moonaura wrote:
Quote:

Why? Please explain. Not just state. I am in favour of giving Minmatar the fastest base speeds, but not necessarily effective speeds when using propulsion modules. This is the only way Blasters will work without increasing Blaster range (then it'll become similar to ACs - some distinction should remain)


Because Minmatar don't have the tank, lower signature, drone bonuses and cool scram e-war or other cool features to let them be balanced if you ever did that. Making Gallente faster, basically is like giving Minmatar the finger and nerfing them. It is not the solution, sorry. Not sure anybody read my previous page post about allowing more overload for the MWD and other features... This thread seems to be on it's own trajectory now.


Dedicated Gallente blaster boats don't have drone bonuses & in practice, not so great tanks either. I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the Minmatar have the best (smallest) signature radii of all the races, in general. Even if shield tanking, its still a % increase of a small radii. Scram bonuses are only on specialized Ewar ships, so have no place in this discussion of Blaster boats vs AC boats.
The idea is the Gallente blaster boat will be able to get in range of said Minmatar ship (which will only be slightly slower than the Gallente pursuer) in a straight(ish) line as long as it can keep its Prop module active. The Minmatar ship will obviously be hurting the Gallente ship with its not so awful DPS at decent range till the Gallente ship can get in range. And if the Minmatar pilot is good, can get out of blaster range again (since they'll have better acceleration due to better agility). & Minmatar tanks aren't that weak in practice, compared to these blaster boats. Scrams do complicate things, which may force Minmatar ships to dual prop (in Null space atleast), but thats another story.

Another point. I'm in favour of nerfing the drone bay sizes of Gallente blaster ships in line with the other races. Only ships with large Drone bays should be the Drone bonused Gallente (and Amarr) boats. I think the added drone dps has been always included in the CCP Devs calculations when considering the standard Gallente Blaster boats, hence the not so face melting damage output from blasters up till now. Without the presumed extra drone DPS, pure blaster DPS output can now be compared to ACs & Pulses without confusion.

p.s. the overload idea has merit & is kinda like the "nitro" idea without needing to change much of game mechanics. Though seems a little limited & non-sustainable in a prolonged encounter.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#472 - 2011-11-10 18:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I don't mind minmatar being faster, however with much lower mass the gallente ships would accelerate faster and gain more from MWDs. I would suggest adding mass to minmatar ships and remove mass from gallente blasterships.
Then give armor rigs a less critical penalty (like reduced sensor strength?)

This as well as reducing fall-off bonus on tracking enhancers and tracking computers with 25-50% should get the balance a very long way...

And then we can start looking at the caldari optimal bonus that could easily use a damage bonus whle replacing gallente bonus with rof bonus to keep gallente stronger...

Pinky

PS. Why dont Mr Tall open a forum where we can ask about changes for individual ships like the Prophecy, Apocalypse and other ships that are not hybrid ships and just have 1 or 2 easy things to change?

Also more effecient webifier drones as well as MEDIUM webifier drones would really benefit the gallente ships in catching other ships even if they will have to give up ecm or damage drones.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2011-11-10 19:43:40 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:


Also more effecient webifier drones as well as MEDIUM webifier drones would really benefit the gallente ships in catching other ships even if they will have to give up ecm or damage drones.


tbh that is probably the first good idea that i've seen in this thread
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#474 - 2011-11-10 19:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Nemesor wrote:

Once upon a time, Gallente used to be the second fastest race. I know you probably do not remember that, but it is a fact. Less damage at range would only mean it takes longer for the Mini to kill the Gallente pilot.

That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content
That would mean that Minmatar could use their superior speed to kite 'till their heart's content

Read your statement and tell me that is balance. All control is on the Minimatar side of the table. They outrange and out pace any Gallente ship. That is not a fun experience for the one being kited until you get dizzy from circling him. Thats not even counting that Minmatar have STASIS WEB RANGE BONUSES.


Ok, so let's turn this around. Make Gallente the fastest. Now, all it takes is to fit railguns instead of blasters, and you've just mirrored the same problem. Same imbalance, different outcome.

My point was that kiting is pointless unless you're able to do decent damage from that range. If some future well-balanced incarnation of a Hurricane wanted to kite me in a future well-balanced iteration of a Brutix, his ****-poor kiting dps wouldn't necessarily be enough to kill me before my Hammerhead IIs kill him. But the way things are now, I probably wouldn't stand a chance.

Balance doesn't mean making Gallente the new Minmatar. It means making each races' strengths meaningful, while toning down the excesses. The reason we benchmark everything against Minmatar at the moment is because they're so hideously overpowered, in every scenario. But Gallente ships' inferior mobility to Minmatar wouldn't be so much of an issue if only 25% of the roaming ships you come across in space were of Minmatar origin, instead of the 70 or 80% it is now. For that to happen, Minmatar need bringing back into line as much as Gallente need boosting.

I want balance, not for Gallente to become the new Winmatar. Can you tell the difference?
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#475 - 2011-11-10 19:46:48 UTC
Sir Fury wrote:

p.s. the overload idea has merit & is kinda like the "nitro" idea without needing to change much of game mechanics. Though seems a little limited & non-sustainable in a prolonged encounter.


It would solve a lot of the common issues raised in this massive threadnaut. You'd get more damage from blaster on demand. You'd get more speed on demand. It would be up to the pilot to tactically decide how to use their overload ability, while not letting them become over powered, it should have drawbacks like any good system. I am just very wary of permanently making Gallente faster than minmitar, I don't see that ending well.

Gun fall off is also a factor, a massive factor to the damage they do and most of Minmitars stuff sits almost exclusively in fall off range.

I would implement it by giving the required Gallente Blaster boats the Overload heating bonus. Simple.

But CCP might have to make the Overload button a bit bigger... lol

Oh, and you're right about my statement about the extra bonuses being specific ships only. Knee jerk on my part. See I can play nice in the sandbox. ALL YOUR SANDCASTLE BELONG TO US.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2011-11-10 19:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Daedalus Arcova wrote:


Ok, so let's turn this around. Make Gallente the fastest. Now, all it takes is to fit railguns instead of blasters, and you've just mirrored the same problem.


Terrible example and one that has been attempted before. Rails can't track well enough to kite in the same fashion. They also do less DPS overall than Minmatar weapon systems.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#477 - 2011-11-10 19:50:37 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
[quote=Nemesor]

Ok, so let's turn this around. Make Gallente the fastest. Now, all it takes is to fit railguns instead of blasters, and you've just mirrored the same problem.


Terrible example and one that has been attempted before. Rails can't track well enough to kite in the same fashion. They also do less DPS overall than Minmatar weapon systems.


Which is why a bigger tank would help balance them.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#478 - 2011-11-10 19:56:31 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I don't mind minmatar being faster, however with much lower mass the gallente ships would accelerate faster and gain more from MWDs. I would suggest adding mass to minmatar ships and remove mass from gallente blasterships.


By increasing Minmatar ship mass and decreasing it for Gallente, you'd just make Gallente the new fast nano race. Then all that would happen is the Gallente boat would catch the Minmatar boat, each ship would scram and web the other, and the Minmatar ship would use its superior base speed to slowboat out of scram range. Repeat ad nauseum.

Do the opposite: Make Gallente the fastest race without MWD, but give them the mass to keep them a bit slower than Minmatar at MWD speeds. Plates (even as they are now, although they need fixing) would have less of an effect on top speeds, and Gallente boats would be able to hold their prey once they'd caught it, and still do reasonable speed while scrammed, neuted and webbed (as they are whenever they get into blaster range).
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#479 - 2011-11-10 20:02:30 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:


Ok, so let's turn this around. Make Gallente the fastest. Now, all it takes is to fit railguns instead of blasters, and you've just mirrored the same problem.


Terrible example and one that has been attempted before. Rails can't track well enough to kite in the same fashion. They also do less DPS overall than Minmatar weapon systems.


So you missed the part where CCP Tallest buffed railgun tracking and damage, and uffed Javelin tracking? I guess you missed the bit where I called for a nerf to autocannon tracking and the falloff bonus from TEs too.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#480 - 2011-11-10 20:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Excuse me, but if Minmatar still have the highest velocities how can buffing MWD speed in a balanced way using less mass on gallente ships be such a big threat to minmatar? Just make sure minmatar will be the fastest top speed but make the gallente accelerate and maneuver much faster unless the minmatar using speed mods giving up dps/range/tracking?

Pink