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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1361 - 2013-05-24 18:43:47 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
Caldary pilots highly need a pirate missile platform to compensate this CNR nerf. Only that will prevents them from whining :)

Seriously.
Now in PVE for every weapon system (except missiles) we have two choices:
1) marauder – more tank/utility, and
2) pirate BS – more dps.
(projectyles - Vargur or Mach, lasers – Paladin or NM, hybrids – Kronos or Vind).
For missiles we have Golem and CNR (not so good as pirate ships but have more dps than T2).

But what caldary will have in Odyssey?
After caldary BS they have to learn marauders for more tank/utility OR forget about all that caldary ships and train matar BS, drones, projectiles for more dps… Cool story.


In b4:
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTLESNAKES!
Benedictus de Suede
Norsewing Naval Command
#1362 - 2013-05-24 19:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Benedictus de Suede
Hi,

Most of the new changes, I think, are very good indeed. A change should always be for the better. If so, it will feel logic.


Weapons of war evolve in the same way spices do. If a weapon system becomes inferior, there would be a need to improve it or abandon it totally.
The Raven needed a boost and so did missiles.


However, what I really, don´t like about the new changes are when you take away fitting options that where there in the first place. This change doesn't add value to the gameplay. What´s the harm in letting Raven pilots fit guns to their ship? The Typhoon pilot´s can use a mixed blend of weapons system why can´t the guys how fly Ravens?
Name one modern combat ship of today who is relying on, or is equipped with, one type of weapons i.e missiles or guns. There is none.

Speaking of this, why not add a row of slots for defensive weapons on bigger ships. Would be really nice with flak-guns, anti-missile launchers (who uses defender missiles today anyway?!) and gatling guns to tackle the threat that smaller ship and missiles impose.
Warships of today doesn't fire cruise missiles or Harpoon missiles at fighter jets - now do they? It seems stupid to not put at least some defensive weapons on a +3000m warship like the Phoenix.

Don´t get me wrong. I think the ships bonuses are quite OK and should guide the fitting in a certain direction, but I can't see any point I stripping away the options of fitting the ships.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1363 - 2013-05-24 19:46:14 UTC
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTL

Gimme more Cynos wrote:

In b4:
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTLESNAKES!


Ah crap, I'm too late. Damn it.

Twisted
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1364 - 2013-05-24 20:58:37 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Caldary pilots highly need a pirate missile platform to compensate this CNR nerf. Only that will prevents them from whining :)

Seriously.
Now in PVE for every weapon system (except missiles) we have two choices:
1) marauder – more tank/utility, and
2) pirate BS – more dps.
(projectyles - Vargur or Mach, lasers – Paladin or NM, hybrids – Kronos or Vind).
For missiles we have Golem and CNR (not so good as pirate ships but have more dps than T2).

But what caldary will have in Odyssey?
After caldary BS they have to learn marauders for more tank/utility OR forget about all that caldary ships and train matar BS, drones, projectiles for more dps… Cool story.


In b4:
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTLESNAKES!

With CCP turning good t1 ships into faction ships i wouldn't really be surprised to see Rattle turned into new old CNR, and this nerf to CNR was in preparation to it.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1365 - 2013-05-24 23:55:00 UTC
I generally like everything and can accept navy mega's decreased tank (I was used to think of it more like of a combat ship than attack one), but why is navy apoc so short on cap?
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#1366 - 2013-05-25 00:00:26 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Caldary pilots highly need a pirate missile platform to compensate this CNR nerf. Only that will prevents them from whining :)

Seriously.
Now in PVE for every weapon system (except missiles) we have two choices:
1) marauder – more tank/utility, and
2) pirate BS – more dps.
(projectyles - Vargur or Mach, lasers – Paladin or NM, hybrids – Kronos or Vind).
For missiles we have Golem and CNR (not so good as pirate ships but have more dps than T2).

But what caldary will have in Odyssey?
After caldary BS they have to learn marauders for more tank/utility OR forget about all that caldary ships and train matar BS, drones, projectiles for more dps… Cool story.


In b4:
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTLESNAKES!

With CCP turning good t1 ships into faction ships i wouldn't really be surprised to see Rattle turned into new old CNR, and this nerf to CNR was in preparation to it.


It won't, because Guristas are the shield-drone ship line, and the missiles are more than a little bit of an afterthought.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1367 - 2013-05-25 14:45:02 UTC
just tested the navy amarrian ships, and can say for the purposes i used them they totally suck now. Im an incursion runner and can say that the napoc gets nerfed heavily through to new cap requirements, Which means increase the cap of the navy apoc. The navy geddon stays primarily the same and gets a slight buff to cap thx to turret changes as does the baddon also the resist boni nerf im not sure how much that will go.

So i say again give my napoc more cap the new boni are nice but doesnt help with the horrible cap issues.

Thx
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#1368 - 2013-05-25 15:19:01 UTC
Benedictus de Suede wrote:
Hi,

Most of the new changes, I think, are very good indeed. A change should always be for the better. If so, it will feel logic.


Weapons of war evolve in the same way spices do. If a weapon system becomes inferior, there would be a need to improve it or abandon it totally.
The Raven needed a boost and so did missiles.


However, what I really, don´t like about the new changes are when you take away fitting options that where there in the first place. This change doesn't add value to the gameplay. What´s the harm in letting Raven pilots fit guns to their ship? The Typhoon pilot´s can use a mixed blend of weapons system why can´t the guys how fly Ravens?
Name one modern combat ship of today who is relying on, or is equipped with, one type of weapons i.e missiles or guns. There is none.

Speaking of this, why not add a row of slots for defensive weapons on bigger ships. Would be really nice with flak-guns, anti-missile launchers (who uses defender missiles today anyway?!) and gatling guns to tackle the threat that smaller ship and missiles impose.
Warships of today doesn't fire cruise missiles or Harpoon missiles at fighter jets - now do they? It seems stupid to not put at least some defensive weapons on a +3000m warship like the Phoenix.

Don´t get me wrong. I think the ships bonuses are quite OK and should guide the fitting in a certain direction, but I can't see any point I stripping away the options of fitting the ships.


First! To call this a terribly unbalancing idea.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1369 - 2013-05-25 15:50:10 UTC
So are we not getting more cap for the Navy Mega to offset the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus?
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1370 - 2013-05-25 16:54:30 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So are we not getting more cap for the Navy Mega to offset the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus?



Maybe you should go read the changelog on : Page 1 .

Yes it gets more cap regen to offset capdrain on weapons.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1371 - 2013-05-25 17:16:13 UTC
Quoting from the Gallente BS thread since the cap numbers and drain on both megas are the same:

Quote:
Hi.

So I just EFT'd this and the Megathron absolutely bleeds cap now that the ROF bonus replaced the Damage bonus.

Using T2 Neutons with Null it uses 3.9 Cap/sec MORE than the old Mega and using Void it uses 5 Cap/sec more... That is 34% increased Cap use for 6.25% increase in DPS and a 20% drop in Alpha... Reasonable? I think NOT

I see this as a MASSIVE nerf as it will seriously affect Cap stability. The extra low you gave us now will have to house a Cap Power Relay...

Thanks CCP


Quote:
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec

This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion.

Doesnt seem ballanced at all


The point is that the increased cap regen doesn't even begin to make up for the increased cap usage of the guns alone. It's bad enough I can lose the ability to dps when neuted, but I can't even keep my own guns firing while using no other mods? At least lasers get unlimited ammo and better range :P.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1372 - 2013-05-25 19:30:14 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Quoting from the Gallente BS thread since the cap numbers and drain on both megas are the same:

Quote:
Hi.

So I just EFT'd this and the Megathron absolutely bleeds cap now that the ROF bonus replaced the Damage bonus.

Using T2 Neutons with Null it uses 3.9 Cap/sec MORE than the old Mega and using Void it uses 5 Cap/sec more... That is 34% increased Cap use for 6.25% increase in DPS and a 20% drop in Alpha... Reasonable? I think NOT

I see this as a MASSIVE nerf as it will seriously affect Cap stability. The extra low you gave us now will have to house a Cap Power Relay...

Thanks CCP


Quote:
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec

This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion.

Doesnt seem ballanced at all


The point is that the increased cap regen doesn't even begin to make up for the increased cap usage of the guns alone. It's bad enough I can lose the ability to dps when neuted, but I can't even keep my own guns firing while using no other mods? At least lasers get unlimited ammo and better range :P.


Welcome to all Amarr BS's (can we retire the unlimited ammo meme, no one uses T1 crystals).
MinutemanKirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1373 - 2013-05-25 19:56:54 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:

Welcome to all Amarr BS's (can we retire the unlimited ammo meme, no one uses T1 crystals).


So because Amarr have cap hungry guns that justifies Gallente having them also?

Gallente have enough cap problems as it is since we have to burn prop mods longer just to be able to use our preferred guns. Not being able to maintain as much cap, not to mention the ineffectiveness this would lead to that utility/neut high slot everyone keep talking about, would make the mega that much less desirable.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1374 - 2013-05-25 20:12:36 UTC
Well since amarr need cap boosters to fire as well, can I at least get scorch to work in my blasters? No? Well let me keep firing my ******* guns without eating 800 boosters.
Lugalzagezi666
#1375 - 2013-05-25 20:35:56 UTC
This!
CCP, can you please change tracking bonus on the mega and navy mega to large hybrid turret capacitor use bonus.
Thank you.
dagley
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
#1376 - 2013-05-26 18:08:17 UTC
Doed wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So are we not getting more cap for the Navy Mega to offset the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus?



Maybe you should go read the changelog on : Page 1 .

Yes it gets more cap regen to offset capdrain on weapons.



Would be nice if Amarr ships got the same treatment eh. The navy apoc gets less cap but admittedly with a shorter recharge time still will not help the laser cap issues it WILL have. Also why does the navy geddon have MORE armour than the navy apoc surely by the sense of lets say logic CCP the tier 2 navy battleship should have more HP?


Plus the fleet tempest is better but still lacking that 7th turret which would then make it on par with most tier 2 faction bs's (navy mega having 7 navy apoc has 8! even the navy geddon has 7!) I know minmatar are about mixed weapon systems but if you are gonna give bonuses for just one type give it the slots to use the bonuses as good as the other faction battleships can.
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#1377 - 2013-05-27 09:13:22 UTC
And since there's no tiers anymore , where are the navy versions of abaddon, rokh ,mael and hyperion??? Surely if all ships are now equal there should be navy versions for all equal ships? And yes I'll keep calling you Shirley.
Luscius Uta
#1378 - 2013-05-27 12:12:56 UTC
Why is calibration going to be increased for Navy BSes, but not for Pirate ones?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#1379 - 2013-05-27 12:16:35 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Why is calibration going to be increased for Navy BSes, but not for Pirate ones?


Hmm, could be because Pirate BS are going to be rebalanced another time. But wait, that's way too obscure isn't it?

My Condor costs less than that module!
Luscius Uta
#1380 - 2013-05-28 08:24:35 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Why is calibration going to be increased for Navy BSes, but not for Pirate ones?


Hmm, could be because Pirate BS are going to be rebalanced another time. But wait, that's way too obscure isn't it?


Pirate BS have already been rebalanced, at least partially. Hop on the test server and notice that Rattlesnake has 4% resistance bonus per level. AFAIK, Fozzie never claimed any intentions to rebalance them further....but I'm sure you have a link to prove me wrong as I'm just being lazy to search all of his posts.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.