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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1381 - 2013-05-28 09:30:12 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Why is calibration going to be increased for Navy BSes, but not for Pirate ones?


Hmm, could be because Pirate BS are going to be rebalanced another time. But wait, that's way too obscure isn't it?


Pirate BS have already been rebalanced, at least partially. Hop on the test server and notice that Rattlesnake has 4% resistance bonus per level. AFAIK, Fozzie never claimed any intentions to rebalance them further....but I'm sure you have a link to prove me wrong as I'm just being lazy to search all of his posts.


That's not really a pirate ship rebalance though. That's a resist bonus rebalance.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1382 - 2013-05-28 09:34:12 UTC
dagley wrote:
Doed wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So are we not getting more cap for the Navy Mega to offset the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus?



Maybe you should go read the changelog on : Page 1 .

Yes it gets more cap regen to offset capdrain on weapons.



Would be nice if Amarr ships got the same treatment eh. The navy apoc gets less cap but admittedly with a shorter recharge time still will not help the laser cap issues it WILL have. Also why does the navy geddon have MORE armour than the navy apoc surely by the sense of lets say logic CCP the tier 2 navy battleship should have more HP?


I don't think you get what "tiercide" means. It means "death to tiers".

The apoc loses armor hp because it gains a load of speed and agility.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1383 - 2013-05-28 09:49:30 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Quoting from the Gallente BS thread since the cap numbers and drain on both megas are the same:

Quote:
Hi.

So I just EFT'd this and the Megathron absolutely bleeds cap now that the ROF bonus replaced the Damage bonus.

Using T2 Neutons with Null it uses 3.9 Cap/sec MORE than the old Mega and using Void it uses 5 Cap/sec more... That is 34% increased Cap use for 6.25% increase in DPS and a 20% drop in Alpha... Reasonable? I think NOT

I see this as a MASSIVE nerf as it will seriously affect Cap stability. The extra low you gave us now will have to house a Cap Power Relay...

Thanks CCP


Quote:
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec

This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion.

Doesnt seem ballanced at all


The point is that the increased cap regen doesn't even begin to make up for the increased cap usage of the guns alone. It's bad enough I can lose the ability to dps when neuted, but I can't even keep my own guns firing while using no other mods? At least lasers get unlimited ammo and better range :P.


Aaaaand less DPS, and worse tracking, and still use significantly more cap/second while only having a slightly better capacitor on the ships... And I'm forced to carry a minimum of multiple millions of isk worth of ammo in my hold no matter what.

I mean, my Omens always carry minimum 5m isk worth of ammo, just bringing 2 sets of crystals. My Executioners over 1m. Don't even get me started on my Oracles and Abaddons.
Luscius Uta
#1384 - 2013-05-28 10:14:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Why is calibration going to be increased for Navy BSes, but not for Pirate ones?


Hmm, could be because Pirate BS are going to be rebalanced another time. But wait, that's way too obscure isn't it?


Pirate BS have already been rebalanced, at least partially. Hop on the test server and notice that Rattlesnake has 4% resistance bonus per level. AFAIK, Fozzie never claimed any intentions to rebalance them further....but I'm sure you have a link to prove me wrong as I'm just being lazy to search all of his posts.


That's not really a pirate ship rebalance though. That's a resist bonus rebalance.


I wouldn't call simply fixing calibration points to be equal with all other Battleships rebalance. I would call it a fix.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1385 - 2013-05-28 11:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Dear CCP,

I don't enjoy the new apoc. While I support your effort to get rid of useless (?) cap bonus the new bonus it received is actually working against your philosophy to remove bonuses that are contradicting each other. Why? Let me explain:

1) You want to build mid-range (pulse) or long range (beam) apoc - what the hell will you use the tracking bonus for? In pvp u get demolished at close range (low tank, medium dps) and sniper ships should not engage at close anyway (what will u shoot? ceptors?). For pve u have drones, webs, tracking comps to improve your tracking.

2) u want a to build a ship for clearing small stuff in fleet (pvp) actions - what the hell will u use the range bonus for? It already has enough range with scorch no need to improve that. For pve tracking is not that important as stated earlier and was never an issue for apoc anyway.


So basically u can’t build an apoc that effectively uses its two bonuses together. How to resolve that? OGM it’s so easy to do that:


Abaddon: +5% dmg, +4% armor res, role: combat (the archetype of line ship really).

Armageddon: +10 to drones dmg etc., +10 enegry transfer range, role: support, drone boat.

Apoc V.1 (preferred): +5 dmg, +7,5 large turret range, role: attack (fleet sniper or anti support ship, pve), note: still don’t allow to fit Tachs as it will be overpowered with dmg bonus, but allow to fit mega beams.

Apoc V.2 (meh...): +5 dmg, 7,5 large turret tracking, role: attack (combat support, anti-cruiser and t3 ship, low pve capability), allow Tachs for some sniper capability.


And just to ask you Amarr pilots out there: would you stop complaining about cap stability for added dmg for apoc? I know I would...
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#1386 - 2013-05-28 11:38:08 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:

stuff


Not that i pretend to really understand the way lasers work, but doesn't range for them ALWAYS translate into damage, as you can bring your shorter ranged crystals from further away, there for increasing damage, while maintaining distance?
PavlikX
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1387 - 2013-05-28 11:44:03 UTC
Obviously optimal range bonus is correct to attack vessel.
Meantime tracking bonus... wel, i would prefer 5% damage
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1388 - 2013-05-28 12:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Vesan Terakol wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:

stuff


Not that i pretend to really understand the way lasers work, but doesn't range for them ALWAYS translate into damage, as you can bring your shorter ranged crystals from further away, there for increasing damage, while maintaining distance?



It does! At mid ranges. At long range u suffer becouse a comparable weapon sytem (rails, arty) will have more dmg (their ships all get dmg bonuses), and at short range its the same. There is a top and bottom levlel where there are simply no more crytals to chose from. Being a WH player and roaming in null sec a lot a can say that the fight is either very close range or very long range. Noone fights in mid range. Lasers already doing a medium dmg are even worse without dmg bonus. This is theory.

In practice u have two ranges: scorch range, multii/conflag range. For pvp the added range bonus doesent do much (scorch is already insane for mid range pvp and once it gets close it gets close. Aded multi and conflag range will not do much against blaster boats orbiting u at 2k, once u hit their web range they will get close fast.

The bottom line is: lasers have thier advantages (range, ammo) and disadvantages (tracking, cap use, lower dmg). All other BS ships are designed to compliment their racial weapon system (mega gets tracking and dps, because it fights close, reven gets missile speed and exp velocity becouse it snipes). Apoc not only gets behind becouse it does not have a dmg bouns (other BS do, complementing thier chosen weapon system), but its new bonuses do not compliment each other, making it further fall behing. At least -10 cap use made it a good pve ship and sniper ship (but rearly used). What role does it fill now (i know attack, but how do u want to use it in fleet?):

close and mid range fights? no, it has no tank or dps for that, u will take abaddon .
sniper? no, oracle can fit tachs, thus negating the apoc range bonus.
pve? no, no longer cap stable and wihout dmg bonus u will take caldari anyway or gedeon.

Bottom line: apoc was a good pve ship with no other role really. Now its not even that. I propose to give it its role back with more dps (will chew rats faster thus not needing sutained tank) and a give it a new pvp role of anti sniper ship. An armor tanked apoc with mega beams or tachs and dps bonus can counter tornado, talos, oracle nano fleets. U also dont need cap stability for that.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1389 - 2013-05-28 12:49:50 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:

It does! At mid ranges. At long range u suffer becouse a comparable weapon sytem (rails, arty) will have more dmg (their ships all get dmg bonuses)

No they don't, just as some laser ships get damage bonuses and some get something else, so it is with other ships too.
Quote:

The bottom line is: lasers have thier advantages (range, ammo) and disadvantages (tracking, cap use, lower dmg). All other BS ships are designed to compliment their racial weapon system (mega gets tracking and dps, because it fights close, reven gets missile speed and exp velocity becouse it snipes). Apoc not only gets behind becouse it does not have a dmg bouns (other BS do, complementing thier chosen weapon system), but its new bonuses do not compliment each other, making it further fall behing. At least -10 cap use made it a good pve ship and sniper ship (but rearly used). What role does it fill now (i know attack, but how do u want to use it in fleet?):

Mid-range ship, using the excellent optimal of lasers combined with the execellent tracking of lasers on top of the hull bonus to be able to apply full damage across a very wide band of ranges. The Apoc will have a very broad engagement envelope.

TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#1390 - 2013-05-28 13:13:19 UTC
The only thing the Apoc and NApoc are lacking is a better capacitor.
I think that even if they don't change the normal Apocs cap they should atleast tweak the NApoc.
I'm not even talking about a big change in terms of capacitor, just a little tweak to make it superior to its non faction counterpart.

My Condor costs less than that module!

Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1391 - 2013-05-28 13:22:27 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:


Mid-range ship, using the excellent optimal of lasers combined with the execellent tracking of lasers on top of the hull bonus to be able to apply full damage across a very wide band of ranges. The Apoc will have a very broad engagement envelope.



I agree, I really do. But the current game mechanics does not promote mid-range fights. There are no such fights. The only mid-range ships I ever saw were nano oracles, talos and tornados. But they can kite, and BS cant. Just asking how many apocs have u encountered in pvp? Me 0.

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1392 - 2013-05-28 16:33:32 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Quoting from the Gallente BS thread since the cap numbers and drain on both megas are the same:

Quote:
Hi.

So I just EFT'd this and the Megathron absolutely bleeds cap now that the ROF bonus replaced the Damage bonus.

Using T2 Neutons with Null it uses 3.9 Cap/sec MORE than the old Mega and using Void it uses 5 Cap/sec more... That is 34% increased Cap use for 6.25% increase in DPS and a 20% drop in Alpha... Reasonable? I think NOT

I see this as a MASSIVE nerf as it will seriously affect Cap stability. The extra low you gave us now will have to house a Cap Power Relay...

Thanks CCP


Quote:
Base Cap went up by 175 and regen up by 0.4 Cap/sec

This equates to 219 Cap and 0.6 Cap/sec at All level V which is relevant for the discussion.

Doesnt seem ballanced at all


The point is that the increased cap regen doesn't even begin to make up for the increased cap usage of the guns alone. It's bad enough I can lose the ability to dps when neuted, but I can't even keep my own guns firing while using no other mods? At least lasers get unlimited ammo and better range :P.


Aaaaand less DPS, and worse tracking, and still use significantly more cap/second while only having a slightly better capacitor on the ships... And I'm forced to carry a minimum of multiple millions of isk worth of ammo in my hold no matter what.

I mean, my Omens always carry minimum 5m isk worth of ammo, just bringing 2 sets of crystals. My Executioners over 1m. Don't even get me started on my Oracles and Abaddons.


I'm not going to get into an argument about the merits of lasers. They have their advantages and disadvantages, just like every other weapon system. The point is that the Navy Mega never had a cap problem before, now it does, and not much has really been changed about it to warrant this new disadvantage.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1393 - 2013-05-29 00:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:

Welcome to all Amarr BS's (can we retire the unlimited ammo meme, no one uses T1 crystals).


So because Amarr have cap hungry guns that justifies Gallente having them also?

Gallente have enough cap problems as it is since we have to burn prop mods longer just to be able to use our preferred guns. Not being able to maintain as much cap, not to mention the ineffectiveness this would lead to that utility/neut high slot everyone keep talking about, would make the mega that much less desirable.


Sad to say this but I've already solved this problem my self by flying Minmatar and Caldari, and pretty much all of the Gallente problems were also solved once I could fly all other races ships.

Gallente DPS ships are forced to niche roles and fleets for mystical reasons. Once you want to get out of the undock/gate games you don't have much valuable choices in Gallente line up, even then except the long point there's nothing another race ship can't do often better and offer you a better gaming experience.

Even if you RP you can ask yourself how can you keep your space with such horrible fleets everyone with 2 neurons working together will shred appart or make you run to safety like a little dog tail between legs.

Maybe some find awesome game play or smart something not easy to understand to use ships with overall negative points and offering a terrible gaming experience.
Maybe some like the feeling they're smarter for using those with off grid boosting, 25 million combat boosters and several billions implants plus the mandatory neutral rep and jam alt, I don't really get it.
Maybe and most probably some think Gallente are awesome because they know nothing else.
They could save themselves a lot of pain and time for real gaming fun by using better ships not requiring you to be an octopus to do the same job.

Main point being, is it worth to fly Gallente? -yes it is, once you fly real spaceships and want to try something else, or if you really want Angel/Serpentis ships. Other than that you are limiting and inflicting yourself a lot of pain for no special reason.

Edit: I still have Gallente ships in my hangars, just to remember my self how good and fun those could be but mostly to remember me how those are a pain to play with.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1394 - 2013-05-29 03:59:51 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:


Mid-range ship, using the excellent optimal of lasers combined with the execellent tracking of lasers on top of the hull bonus to be able to apply full damage across a very wide band of ranges. The Apoc will have a very broad engagement envelope.



I agree, I really do. But the current game mechanics does not promote mid-range fights. There are no such fights. The only mid-range ships I ever saw were nano oracles, talos and tornados. But they can kite, and BS cant. Just asking how many apocs have u encountered in pvp? Me 0.


I'd say more that there aren't a whole lot of really long ranged fights, and middling-long is the new 'long'.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1395 - 2013-05-29 10:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Malcanis wrote:
I don't think you get what "tiercide" means. It means "death to tiers".


Strange that You say that, as it feels like the Tiers just have been renamed. there's an Attack Tier, now, and a Combat Tier, and some third Tier whichs name I have forgotten right now... :/

EDIT: Oh wait, it's called roles now isn't it? Tiers are so yesterday... (o_o)

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1396 - 2013-05-29 18:34:46 UTC
If you can't tell the difference between roles and tiers you are clearly a fool and should not be allowed to comment on ship balancing...

In the old world, with tiers. Half of the ships were useless as the higher tier ones had more hp, better fitting and more slots. There was literally no reason to use the majority of lower tier ships before tiericide.

Roles, different ships have different perks. It is no longer a case of choosing the top tier one knowing that it has the base stats to more than make up for any different bonuses it probably had before. In some cases certain ships will be useless, but in different situations (say fleet vs solo) it'll be the other way around.

Even if tiericide isn't perfect at the moment, it's in a hell of a lot better place than it was a few expansions ago. I do believe people now fly ships that aren't a Rifter, Hurricane or Drake?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1397 - 2013-05-29 19:43:16 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I don't think you get what "tiercide" means. It means "death to tiers".


Strange that You say that, as it feels like the Tiers just have been renamed. there's an Attack Tier, now, and a Combat Tier, and some third Tier whichs name I have forgotten right now... :/

EDIT: Oh wait, it's called roles now isn't it? Tiers are so yesterday... (o_o)

If we're going that route the complaint was further off base as the attack line does have less HP that the combat line as intended. But even then they aren't tiers as they are situationally advantageous rather than being flat out better or worse.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1398 - 2013-05-31 09:04:22 UTC
How's that promise of a regular and fleet tempest with more "something" coming along hey?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Wolf Mortalis
MyLittleDragon
#1399 - 2013-05-31 09:37:29 UTC
I want Armageddon Navy with drone bonus. May be, like dominix, one bonus for turrets, one for drones... Black, beautiful and with drones. I want it!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1400 - 2013-05-31 09:55:45 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I don't think you get what "tiercide" means. It means "death to tiers".


Strange that You say that, as it feels like the Tiers just have been renamed. there's an Attack Tier, now, and a Combat Tier, and some third Tier whichs name I have forgotten right now... :/

EDIT: Oh wait, it's called roles now isn't it? Tiers are so yesterday... (o_o)


Now I don't think you get what "tier" means. It implies a heirarchy.

So which is best out of Attack and Combat?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016