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IS boxer Software and it's legality under the EULA

First post First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#101 - 2013-05-22 03:00:45 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
In the meantime, ISboxed fleets are easy to gank.


Certain people are trying to entice WoW multiboxers to play EVE now that the follow command was removed from battlegrounds. I'm wondering how long it will be before we start seeing threads describing how these WoW refugees are receiving a real New Eden welcome Twisted


Link?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ellen Thrace
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-05-22 03:03:59 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


Automation = No one at keyboard. Software makes decisions or follows a script and continues interacting with the game client without user input.



Automation DOES NOT mean "no one at keyboard" or "without user input"

Quote:
au•to•ma•tion (ˌɔ təˈmeɪ ʃən)
n.
1. the technique, method, or system of operating or controlling a process by highly automatic means, as by electronic devices, reducing human intervention to a MINIMUM.


It has already been discussed on another thread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=217614



In the context of why CCP allows replication (i.e. isboxer) and not automation (a bot) that's exactly what it means.



If that was the case it would mean that CCP officially allows bots.
Meanwhile why dont you give us your own opinion if this should be allowed or not ?

“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#103 - 2013-05-22 03:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


Automation = No one at keyboard. Software makes decisions or follows a script and continues interacting with the game client without user input.



Automation DOES NOT mean "no one at keyboard" or "without user input"

Quote:
au•to•ma•tion (ˌɔ təˈmeɪ ʃən)
n.
1. the technique, method, or system of operating or controlling a process by highly automatic means, as by electronic devices, reducing human intervention to a MINIMUM.


It has already been discussed on another thread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=217614



In the context of why CCP allows replication (i.e. isboxer) and not automation (a bot) that's exactly what it means.



If that was the case it would mean that CCP officially allows bots.
Meanwhile why dont you give us your own opinion if this should be allowed or not ?



No it doesn't mean that.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are using isboxer, it stops interacting with the game client.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are running an automation process (a bot), it continues interacting with the game client as a human would without any actual human involvement.

That's about as clear as it gets. The second you go afk and software you are using is manipulating the game client like a human would, without your interaction, you are botting.

I endorse CCP's stated policy on this.

Botting is bad m'kay, but if a player can afford to subsidize enough accounts where they actually need something like isboxer, so what, it's more $$ to CCP.

edit: added my opinion

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Ellen Thrace
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-05-22 03:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellen Thrace
Doc Fury wrote:


No it doesn't mean that.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are using isboxer, it stops interacting with the game client.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are running an automation process (a bot), it continues interacting with the game client as a human would without any actual human involvement.

That's about as clear as it gets. The second you go afk and software you are using is manipulating the game client like a human would, without your interaction, you are botting.

I endorse CCP's stated policy on this.

Botting is bad m'kay, but if a player can afford to subsidize enough accounts where they actually need something like isboxer, so what, it's more $$ to CCP.

edit: added my opinion



Since you have the same view as you say CCP has, let me rephrase.
A bot is what it is , not what you or anyone else thinks it is.

And thank you for your opinion.

“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#105 - 2013-05-22 03:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


No it doesn't mean that.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are using isboxer, it stops interacting with the game client.

If you walk away from the keyboard and are running an automation process (a bot), it continues interacting with the game client as a human would without any actual human involvement.

That's about as clear as it gets. The second you go afk and software you are using is manipulating the game client like a human would, without your interaction, you are botting.

I endorse CCP's stated policy on this.

Botting is bad m'kay, but if a player can afford to subsidize enough accounts where they actually need something like isboxer, so what, it's more $$ to CCP.

edit: added my opinion



Since you have the same view as you say CCP has, let me rephrase.
A bot is what it is , not what you or anyone else thinks it is.

And thank you for your opinion.


O.K. then what is a bot if not something that works for you, without any further intervention/interaction from you, other than setting it to its task before you are absent?

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#106 - 2013-05-22 05:15:55 UTC
I multibox but don't use ISboxer. I accept that using ISboxer doesn't "break the rules" but I do think it violates the spirit of the game and as such I'd ban it. I think that multiboxing has enough advantages "as is" without making things easier.

If CCP were genuinely in favour of programs like ISboxer they would have made their own in-game version and made you train up skills to use it. Just because ISboxer doesn't violate the EULA currently doesn't mean that CCP like it either. Given that you pay for the advantage of using multiple characters I expect CCP will introduce a charge or cost for the convenience and advantages over multiboxing that ISboxer has because that's EVE; you want convenience - you pay for it and you can have it.

Coming soon - overmind control system and skillbook or something.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#107 - 2013-05-22 06:04:46 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
I can put a lot more nails into a piece of wood with a hammer than with my thumb. I don't call a hammer automation.


No, but I'd call a robot that holds 15 hammers and replicates your hammer hits with them automation.

Just like a program that modifies and controls a game client is a bot.

.

GM Lelouch
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#108 - 2013-05-22 09:30:12 UTC
Hello ya'll, hope you're having a good day.

CCP Stillman recently wrote a dev blog about client modifications and our stance towards them. The dev blog also touched on the subject of third-party programs and I feel it is very relevant to the discussion in this thread. I encourage those of you who haven't read it to give it a look, this blog actually makes for great coffeetable reading and those of you who've already indulged may even want to print out your very own copy to share with friends and family!

Multiboxing is not inherently in violation of our EULA, a player is not breaking the EVE game rules by virtue of simultaneously operating multiple accounts alone. Multiboxing software can however be in violation of the EULA.

CCP can and will not officially endorse or condone specific pieces of third-party software and ISBoxer is no exception to this. I will make this very clear: CCP does not officially endorse ISBoxer or any other multiboxing software. Use of third-party programs is, as outlined in Stillman's blog, done entirely at your own risk and we'll quite simply not be able to state outright that this software or that software can be legitimately used under the EVE EULA since they are after all third-party programs.

Let us make an example to illustrate why:

'Hypothetical Software v1.0' is released to the joy of all and is eventually endorsed by CCP as a fine supplement to EVE; the program is officially declared to not be in violation of the EVE EULA/ToS. Some weeks later, the developers of 'Hypothetical Software' releases an update, version 1.1, an update which adds macro mining functionality to the program's existing features. Automating the mining portion of the game is obviously in violation of the EVE EULA so use of 'Hypothetical Software' would suddenly become a EULA violation despite prior endorsement by CCP.

There are a lot of great third-party developers creating fantastic tools to supplement the EVE experience and this is all fine and dandy. As EVE grows, so does the amount of third-party programs developed for EVE and we cannot realistically review and condone these tools on an individual basis and use of such programs is therefore done at your own risk.

We can prohibit and warn against the use of software which we know without a doubt to contain components which violate the EULA. Any program which enables the Autopilot to 0 client modification falls under this for example: if you use a piece of software which enables you to autopilot to 0, you can expect a permanent suspension of your account as you are in gross violation of the EULA.

In addition to CCP Stillman's blog which I linked at the top of this post, I'd also like to bring your attention to the following page which outlines our official policy on third-party programs:
Third-party policies

Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514

KasparHauser
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-05-22 10:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: KasparHauser
Jason Xado wrote:
Multiboxing is valid gameplay.



Absolutely, but it can be done without 3rd party software.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#110 - 2013-05-22 10:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
KasparHauser wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
Multiboxing is valid gameplay.



Absolutely, but it can be done without 3rd party software.


But why would you want to do that? If multiboxing is valid gameplay, then why limit yourself with how you can multibox?

Managing skill plans is a bit tedious and a lot of players use EveMon to manage their skills. Do you also have a problem with EveMon?

Managing skills is valid gameplay.

Keeping track of a bunch of players is difficult so a lot of people use sites such as evewho.com. Do you have a problem with people who use evewho.com?

Keeping track of other players is valid gameplay.

Keeping track of market prices is difficult so a lot of people use market web sites to get market information. Do you have a problem with market web sites?

Watching market prices is valid gameplay.

The in game map doesn't have all the information people would like it to have so they use sites such as dotlan. Do you have a problem with dotlan?

Looking at the map is valid gameplay.

Managing ship fitting is difficult so a lot of people use ship fitting software such as EFT? Do you have a problem with 3rd party ship fitting tools?

Managing ship fittings if valid gameplay.

I think the real problem here is you want multiboxing to be hard because you just don't like multiboxing. Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I will state it again:

Multiboxing is valid gameplay.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2013-05-22 12:01:43 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
KasparHauser wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
Multiboxing is valid gameplay.



Absolutely, but it can be done without 3rd party software.


But why would you want to do that? If multiboxing is valid gameplay, then why limit yourself with how you can multibox?

Managing skill plans is a bit tedious and a lot of players use EveMon to manage their skills. Do you also have a problem with EveMon?

Managing skills is valid gameplay.

Keeping track of a bunch of players is difficult so a lot of people use sites such as evewho.com. Do you have a problem with people who use evewho.com?

Keeping track of other players is valid gameplay.

Keeping track of market prices is difficult so a lot of people use market web sites to get market information. Do you have a problem with market web sites?

Watching market prices is valid gameplay.

The in game map doesn't have all the information people would like it to have so they use sites such as dotlan. Do you have a problem with dotlan?

Looking at the map is valid gameplay.

Managing ship fitting is difficult so a lot of people use ship fitting software such as EFT? Do you have a problem with 3rd party ship fitting tools?

Managing ship fittings if valid gameplay.

I think the real problem here is you want multiboxing to be hard because you just don't like multiboxing. Well you are entitled to your opinion, but I will state it again:

Multiboxing is valid gameplay.


Evemon, Dotlan, Eve Central, EFT, and others are Third party apps which CCP stated is against the EULA. Now CCP also stated that they are only going after people using 3rd party Apps that give them an unfair advantage in the game. That said, like CCP has stated over & over, use all those third party apps AT YOUR OWN RISK.

So your point of valid gameplay is wrong. You choose to play the game using those tools, then you choose to take the risk of being banned because you are breaking the EULA technically.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2013-05-22 12:37:44 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
Hello ya'll, hope you're having a good day.

CCP Stillman recently wrote a dev blog about client modifications and our stance towards them. The dev blog also touched on the subject of third-party programs and I feel it is very relevant to the discussion in this thread. I encourage those of you who haven't read it to give it a look, this blog actually makes for great coffeetable reading and those of you who've already indulged may even want to print out your very own copy to share with friends and family!

Multiboxing is not inherently in violation of our EULA, a player is not breaking the EVE game rules by virtue of simultaneously operating multiple accounts alone. Multiboxing software can however be in violation of the EULA.

CCP can and will not officially endorse or condone specific pieces of third-party software and ISBoxer is no exception to this. I will make this very clear: CCP does not officially endorse ISBoxer or any other multiboxing software. Use of third-party programs is, as outlined in Stillman's blog, done entirely at your own risk and we'll quite simply not be able to state outright that this software or that software can be legitimately used under the EVE EULA since they are after all third-party programs.

Let us make an example to illustrate why:

'Hypothetical Software v1.0' is released to the joy of all and is eventually endorsed by CCP as a fine supplement to EVE; the program is officially declared to not be in violation of the EVE EULA/ToS. Some weeks later, the developers of 'Hypothetical Software' releases an update, version 1.1, an update which adds macro mining functionality to the program's existing features. Automating the mining portion of the game is obviously in violation of the EVE EULA so use of 'Hypothetical Software' would suddenly become a EULA violation despite prior endorsement by CCP.

There are a lot of great third-party developers creating fantastic tools to supplement the EVE experience and this is all fine and dandy. As EVE grows, so does the amount of third-party programs developed for EVE and we cannot realistically review and condone these tools on an individual basis and use of such programs is therefore done at your own risk.

We can prohibit and warn against the use of software which we know without a doubt to contain components which violate the EULA. Any program which enables the Autopilot to 0 client modification falls under this for example: if you use a piece of software which enables you to autopilot to 0, you can expect a permanent suspension of your account as you are in gross violation of the EULA.

In addition to CCP Stillman's blog which I linked at the top of this post, I'd also like to bring your attention to the following page which outlines our official policy on third-party programs:
Third-party policies


Thanks for clarification here!

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2013-05-22 12:46:30 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Evemon, Dotlan, Eve Central, EFT, and others are Third party apps which CCP stated is against the EULA.
No, they really haven't.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#114 - 2013-05-22 12:53:36 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
Ellen Thrace wrote:
Korvus Falek wrote:
I use ISBoxer and I do not use automation. I use replication. Have a good day.


Both definitions are not mutually exclusive, therefore,
even if it is a replication, it still is an Automation.


Jason Xado wrote:
I can put a lot more nails into a piece of wood with a hammer than with my thumb. I don't call a hammer automation.


But you can't use 40 hammers at the same time, can you ?


Yes, I can make a hammer with 40 heads on it and use it on 40 nails.


You look familiar... anyway....

Clearly these people have not seen the commercials where a guy creates a contraption to check multiple travel sites at once.

I could setup 10 computers and setup a special mouse setup where everytime I click a button on the master mouse 10 buttons are clicked.

ISboxer simply lets people do the same without all the silly mechanical devices cluttering up our rooms. Just like the hammer that nails 40 nails.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2013-05-22 13:06:29 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:


Use of third-party programs is, as outlined in Stillman's blog, done entirely at your own risk and we'll quite simply not be able to state outright that this software or that software can be legitimately used under the EVE EULA since they are after all third-party programs.



Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Evemon, Dotlan, Eve Central, EFT, and others are Third party apps which CCP stated is against the EULA.
No, they really haven't.


It was stated by a GM.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2013-05-22 13:14:07 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
It was stated by a GM.
…that they cannot officially say that any given third-party software is in compliance with their EULA. This is not the same thing as saying all third-party software breaks the rules. They can be pretty specific about which software most definitely isn't allowed, because its functionality inherently goes against the EULA, but that's something completely different.

So no, they really haven't.
Colin Chapman
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
#117 - 2013-05-22 13:28:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
It was stated by a GM.
…that they cannot officially say that any given third-party software is in compliance with their EULA. This is not the same thing as saying all third-party software breaks the rules. They can be pretty specific about which software most definitely isn't allowed, because its functionality inherently goes against the EULA, but that's something completely different.

So no, they really haven't.


Its fair to say that tools like EVEMon, EFT etc, are consumers of data from CCP published interfaces, they in no way influence the game nor can they be modified to influence the game.

IsBoxer to me is like Tax avoidance, Legally Ok, but there is a question over the morality of using it. Personally I dont have a problem with IsBoxer's unless it starts to get massively abused.
Valari Nala Zena
Perkone
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-05-22 14:50:33 UTC
Basically CCP said, it's ok to use as it stands now, but nothing stops the owner from releasing an update that contains code breaking the EULA.
If you then update and use it, you are breaking the EULA and CCP will ban you for using it, this will be harder to do when CCP first said they endorsed the program, that is why they don't.

Let say CCP officially endorses this program, and ISboxer releases an update that breaks the EULA, then you are arguably safe to use this program, as long CCP doesn't officially state ISboxer is no longer officially endorsed because it now breaks the EULA.

Just facts now:

Nobody got banned from using isboxer yet, many people claimed to use it, so at this exact time, it hasn't been considered against the EULA YET, and it MIGHT never be.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2013-05-22 15:17:30 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
I can put a lot more nails into a piece of wood with a hammer than with my thumb. I don't call a hammer automation.



Of course.

And using a pneumatic hammer to drive 20 nails in with 1 trigger press would be automation.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Azure Moonlight
Atomic Core Industries and Science
#120 - 2013-05-22 15:17:52 UTC
I dont think using ISBoxer or similar tools is immoral. If something is allowed it consequently is also moral. There is no excuse not to use the tools that are given you to progress in the game or, on a larger scale in live.
However I do believe CCP should forbid the use of multiboxing software, because in my believe it adds a feature to the game that is rather silly and has bad influence on the economy. In my opinion, Eve would be a better game without multiboxing, because those players would have to think more on better applied tactics and not on buying a stronger computer and rush an npc site with 10 ships.

Its just, to me it doesnt feel like *playing* Eve anymore, but rather like a very gross circumvention of game mechanics.

So please CCP, rethink your stance towards multiboxing and ban those programs in the future. Blink

Yay 10 years! :D