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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2013-05-15 08:23:13 UTC
Argel OTF2 wrote:
Honestly I do think as a new player that it is insanely hard to compete in pvp against toons that are a year or two old. I try to do my homework, change my fit and only engage when I think its possible to win, yet I still get turned over by characters with a few months extra training...

I've never complained about it because frankly you can see how entrenched some people are in their view that any kind of critique of the system is 'whining', but the 9 people I joined the game with have all left because rabbiting FW plexes or dying 5 or 6 times a day and not once getting a legitimate kill is just crap. I'm probably in for the long haul, but I have to FW plex for ISK - while avoiding pvp - in order to fund my 2 accounts for the time it will take to become competitive.

That seems... 'wrong' isn't the word... its just a big reason why a lot of people look at the game and when the magnitude of how many sp they need to catch up hits home, and they die for the 10th time that day... obviously even people who would've enjoyed the game leave.

It's a shame that the attitudes of veterans suggests that many can't see past the end of their own noses.


you honestly expect your "homework" and 1 month of actual combat experience can compare to a 2 year vet possibly with boosts, pvp implants and drugs?

It's not a SP issue, please stop trying to make it into one.
Argel OTF2
The Free Republic of OTF2
#562 - 2013-05-15 09:49:00 UTC
Well first of all I have a main alt that is 4-5 months old, which should (imo) be enough to learn the basics to a decent standard, but whatever the issue is, it's incredibly disheartening whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Besides which I think it is incredibly naive and narrow-minded to suggest that SP has nothing to do with it. We all accept that the game has a learning curve, but when that curve can be measured in years, not months, it is extremely hard to convince people to invest the time and money necessary to win.

As this thread shows, there are plenty of people who do consider there to be a minimum skill barrier to PVP for new players. There is also a thriving marketplace for experienced characters, which suggests that even if you don't believe SP matters, others do. It's one thing to say that it isn't the be all and end all (I would agree) but another thing to say that SP has nothing to do with it, because it certainly does.

The combination of experience and SP is the big barrier, and expecting people to play through - or skill up a character without playing - for over a year just to be competitive is what cost 9 players who genuinely enjoyed the game for a few months. They didn't expect instant success, but they didn't expect the scales to be tipped so far against them after 3-4 months.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#563 - 2013-05-15 12:33:32 UTC
Toxin Nostromo wrote:

I’m seasoned, but a little out of date with my time away. I’d of posted with my other account but I don’t have it active. But none the less here I am. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Chimay#kills


I remember getting into a war with you at one point ... or maybe we were just chasing you around Erstet/Enden... was good times Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

William Wei
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2013-05-15 23:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: William Wei
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
Quote:
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?


That's absurd. Precisely because it's THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

In WoW and similar games, someone at a lower "lower" level has nothing to do against "max level" characters.

In EvE, a 30 days player can consistently DESTROY a veteran player at EVERYTHING. Be it business success, commanding other players or simply 1vs1 PvP.

In EvE, your success is determined by your numbers, talent and preparation, and MUCH LESS BY TIME SPENT SUBSCRIBED than in ANY other games out there.




This is the most absurd thing I have ever read.
A new player in eve barely understands game mechanics.
What you are talking about is a vet that made an alt with low SP into one specific role to outplay some one.
In other MMOS all you have to get is gear. After that you can do anything you want.
You don't have to spend month to learn how to wear a pair of boots.

I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


I think your definition of having fun is getting involved in null sec PvP wars only, because plenty of people have fun doing high agent missions/mining/simple trading tasks - which is what the game herds you towards int the beginning anyways - that's probably 80% of the game playing population on eve. You don't have to do this, the grind is there if you're too "scared" to do anything else.

Then there is the nullsec side that everyone gets excited about. You DO NOT NEED HIGH SP to be successful in this world. Just go ahead and apply for any nullsec PvP corp and say you're a noobie, plenty and plenty of corps would hire an extra gun after a background check.

I remember 5 years ago the Goonswarm v. BOB fights, when they would literally recruit hundreds of new pilots with almost zero skill point and no knowledge of how to play the game, throw them in a couple weeks into t1 frigates and thoraxes, and suicide them into massively upgraded tech2 cruisers and Battleships.

If your friends are obsessed with null sec PvP, you should've helped them get assimilated by lending them each some ISK and recruiting all of them together into a merc or PvP nullsec corp. They can all just grab a cheap frigate and within a month fly a pretty freaking solid tackling t1 frigate. in 3 months you're talking about an interceptor or assault frigate that kicks serious butt.

A well flown interceptor usually takes about the same amount of time to max out as a t1 cruiser, those are the two initial choices of new players: t2 frigates including assault ships and interceptors, or a specialized t1 cruiser. That's like half the freaking ships in the game.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#565 - 2013-05-16 00:06:52 UTC
Argel OTF2 wrote:
Well first of all I have a main alt that is 4-5 months old, which should (imo) be enough to learn the basics to a decent standard, but whatever the issue is, it's incredibly disheartening whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Besides which I think it is incredibly naive and narrow-minded to suggest that SP has nothing to do with it. We all accept that the game has a learning curve, but when that curve can be measured in years, not months, it is extremely hard to convince people to invest the time and money necessary to win.

As this thread shows, there are plenty of people who do consider there to be a minimum skill barrier to PVP for new players. There is also a thriving marketplace for experienced characters, which suggests that even if you don't believe SP matters, others do. It's one thing to say that it isn't the be all and end all (I would agree) but another thing to say that SP has nothing to do with it, because it certainly does.

The combination of experience and SP is the big barrier, and expecting people to play through - or skill up a character without playing - for over a year just to be competitive is what cost 9 players who genuinely enjoyed the game for a few months. They didn't expect instant success, but they didn't expect the scales to be tipped so far against them after 3-4 months.


I'm sorry, how much PvP experience did you and your 9 buddies have outside/away from FW?
^^ This is extremely relevant because FW has a major, major issue that significantly unbalances PvP: Off Grid Boosters.
OFB's can give every ship in fleet 30% more speed, 30% more tackle range, 30% more EHP, 70% better Rep ability, etc...
To put this in perspecitve, the raw advantages a high skill point character has over low skillpoint character will typically be 2-10%, which is easily overcome by tactics.

This Link (to my post a few pages back) outlines my early experiences in PvP: Mainly hunting interceptors in cheap fit, lowish SP frigate hulls. I had good success (as well as plenty of deaths). Applying these old tactics to FW is fairly problematic though, as off grid boosting completely shifts the scales of fits.

I feel like your attributing your losses because of skillpoint disadvantages, when it was more likely disadvantages because your opponents had OGBs.
Haulie Berry
#566 - 2013-05-16 01:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
I've never complained about it because frankly you can see how entrenched some people are in their view that any kind of critique of the system is 'whining', but the 9 people I joined the game with have all left because rabbiting FW plexes or dying 5 or 6 times a day and not once getting a legitimate kill is just crap.


And this is completely the game's fault - specifically owing to your lack of SP - and there's no way that perhaps you were simply doing it wrong, yes?
Argel OTF2
The Free Republic of OTF2
#567 - 2013-05-16 06:34:35 UTC
But I've not said it is all to do with sp? Of course my crappy tactics will play a part, as will my fumbling over my modules like Jill Dando with her house keys. Nobody has ever said that isn't the case...

But...

SP does come into the equation, it limits my dps, my tank, my fitting and my speed to a level that is insurmountable at this stage. Maybe in 2 years time I'll look back and say 'I just needed the experience', but the main thing I'm getting at is that the game is really compelling to new players until they realise the massive differential between themselves and the majority of their opponents. Some people like myself will keep trying to improve, but others will grow weary even when they are initially spending a massive amount of time in game.

I understand there is a status quo that will never go away, but its tough to mentally write off your first year as a growing pain. Not sure what can be done anyway so this discussion is largely irrelevant.
Ronix Aideron
Zymurgy Corp.
#568 - 2013-05-16 12:32:48 UTC
I am a new player. The key to overcoming the skill imbalance is to maximize what your contributions can be. It will take you a while to be the toon that brings the DPS. But PvP is more than just bringing the DPS. You can be the tackle, the bait, EWAR or even T1 logi.

I have not read the whole thread but, I would say anyone who feels inadequate because they are new just needs to find how they can contribute with what they have.

Start the day off slow and taper off from there.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron

Namdor
#569 - 2013-05-16 13:47:31 UTC
Argel OTF2 wrote:


SP does come into the equation, it limits my dps, my tank, my fitting and my speed to a level that is insurmountable at this stage.



This is not correct. That last bit, I mean, about it being insurmountable.

It WILL limit your stats to a degree, but that *usually* isn't such a big deal, because most fights are not straight up exchanges of maximum EFT DPS.


Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#570 - 2013-05-16 15:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Namdor wrote:
This is not correct. That last bit, I mean, about it being insurmountable.

It WILL limit your stats to a degree, but that *usually* isn't such a big deal, because most fights are not straight up exchanges of maximum EFT DPS.

This.

Just because I can fly around in a perfectly skilled AF doesn't mean that some noob in a Vexor can't kick my ass in a fight.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#571 - 2013-05-16 17:31:14 UTC
Argel OTF2 wrote:
But I've not said it is all to do with sp? Of course my crappy tactics will play a part, as will my fumbling over my modules like Jill Dando with her house keys. Nobody has ever said that isn't the case...

But...

SP does come into the equation, it limits my dps, my tank, my fitting and my speed to a level that is insurmountable at this stage. Maybe in 2 years time I'll look back and say 'I just needed the experience', but the main thing I'm getting at is that the game is really compelling to new players until they realise the massive differential between themselves and the majority of their opponents. Some people like myself will keep trying to improve, but others will grow weary even when they are initially spending a massive amount of time in game.

I understand there is a status quo that will never go away, but its tough to mentally write off your first year as a growing pain. Not sure what can be done anyway so this discussion is largely irrelevant.


The SP gap between two players has a SMALL role in the outcome of a fight... certainly nothing even remotely close to an "insurmountable gap".

You mentioned before your experience is in FW. Are you aware of Fleet Booster Mechanics and how FW is plagued with them? Please realize that OFB's are FAR FAR more imbalancing than any skillpiont gaps you have, and your losses in a FW zone are probably heavily colored by their use!

Go read my previous post....
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2013-05-16 18:44:27 UTC
Especially when were talking about turrets in pvp in terms of DPS, luck plays a huge factor in there as well so that 5% DPS you didn't get from training small projectiles 5 might just be completely ignored with a few lucky shots.

Barbelo Valentinian
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#573 - 2013-05-19 01:22:21 UTC
I think CCP would make a bob or two out of premade characters: e.g. generic industrial with some discretionary sp., generic militia with some discretionary sp, etc. Or even blanks - all sp discretionary. But this might be too much and too free, so premades, yeah.

Mainly because peoples' names are sometimes important to them, and it would be worth it to them to be able to buy a reasonably capable pilot they could name themselves.

By this stage, I don't think they'd be losing out too much on people not grinding the early stages of the game, it's still necessary for people to build tailor-made toons from scratch, and vets have a long time-view in this game.

But for newbies it would be very attractive and worth the extra cost, if reasonable.

All MMOs reach this stage, where the bulk of the player is at "endgame" and newbies face a desert of levelling before they get there. It was all cool and fun when the population was all doing it together, but for newbies it can be a disheartening experience.

The equivalent to the levelling desert in this game is being incapable of starting off being able to fit and fly fairly well, so you can get into a corp that does fun stuff sooner.

This forcing newbies to go through a long grind before becoming capable of contributing (native abilities held constant) is getting a bit hoary now, a bit doctrinaire. I question whether it's necessary to be forced down that route now.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#574 - 2013-05-19 01:31:05 UTC
If CCP were to give away or sell SP other than to reimburse for downtime it would ruin the concept of the game.

This isn't WoW. If you want something for nothing or be at "level 90" in a week Eve isn't the game for you. Please cancel your subscription and give away your stuff. It's the best thing you can do for everyone. Big smile
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#575 - 2013-05-19 12:36:34 UTC
This thread is ******* terrible and needs to die.
The fact that I just bumped it makes me sad.
Brick Walls
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#576 - 2013-05-19 20:41:33 UTC
Just dropping by to give my point of view: 3 months into the game, been having fun no huge brick walls Twisted blocking me from doing what i want. I started clueless, but set some goals, joined a corp and made some nice friends and enemies. My progress: killboard

I know I still have a long time until I have perfected my skills but there are so many milestones to look forward to, like getting assault ships skill that is now 4 days away. I wouldn't want the journey taken away from me just to get to the destination faster.

That's my two cents.

-Brick
Haulie Berry
#577 - 2013-05-20 02:56:19 UTC
Brick Walls wrote:
Just dropping by to give my point of view: 3 months into the game, been having fun no huge brick walls Twisted blocking me from doing what i want. I started clueless, but set some goals, joined a corp and made some nice friends and enemies. My progress: killboard

I know I still have a long time until I have perfected my skills but there are so many milestones to look forward to, like getting assault ships skill that is now 4 days away. I wouldn't want the journey taken away from me just to get to the destination faster.

That's my two cents.

-Brick



My favorite part is the fact that you have quite a few 1v1 (or 1+npc V. 1) kills in there.

You must be cheating, because I've been told by highly experienced authorities that it's simply impossible for a 3 month old character to participate competitively in PvP. Why, you should need another 9 months of training before you even THINK about undocking! Lol
Bel Rick
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2013-05-20 08:51:29 UTC
Yep the guy is right.

A new player needs SP to dabble in things like mining or research or mission running or industry.

That in itself is a lot of SP needed, by the end of which they will discover. "mining is boring, industry is elitist and mission running really repetitive, ok ill try pvp"

Wait, all these pvp have what requirements / doctrines? 1 years worth of training????

Ok ill solo pvp...

Yeah that works for new players...


The current system keeps players out of the game which is a tragedy because eve does have a lot to offer.

20+ days for a lv5 research is rediculous made worse by the fact that a player cannot speed that up all the while unable to join in with corpmates doing fun things like stealth bombing or blackop dropping etc.

AND they also need to devote SP to ISK earning such as PVE.

So yeah, not a perfect system.
Bel Rick
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2013-05-20 08:55:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A new player can kill an older player simply by employing appropriate tactics.


The only reliable tactics is to bring higher numbers, everything else would require prior knowledge of your opponent's setup to be able to create a counter fitting - which seems somewhat unlikely. (Also the veteran is more likely to have an OGB alt, since you brought them up.)


Stolen from another thread:
I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I ever had an SP advantage over my opponents:

Merlin vs Rifter
Merlin vs Claw
Merlin vs Crow
Merlin vs Raptor
Merlin vs Crusader (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis
Tristan vs Crow
Tristan vs Malediction

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics.

I had an idea how my opponents were fit before the engagements do to common fits and tactics. I fit up my ship to target specific ship types (speed tanking interceptors). These wins wer from purposely fitting a ship with a tactic in mind, then going out and keeping in mind what to engage, how to engage, and when to engage, which is far, far more relevant than the SP totals of me or my opponents.

Fitting up a ship to counter an opponent is not some impossible thing requiring a crystal ball! The truth is, most ships are fitup in one or two very common and predictable manners, with mild variations.

As for OGBs.... they have a much, much larger imbalancing effect on the game than SP. SP give you a 2-10% bonus, while an OGB will give you 30%+ more speed, 30%+ more EHP, 60%+ more tanking, 30%+ longer EWAR range & strengths, etc... OGB's are a bane on game balance, and while they are more accessible to older players (thanks to skilled alts, corp mates, etc), their effect on game is a completely different issue than High SP vs Low SP balance.



Your char goes back to 2009, what BS are you trying to pull???
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2013-05-20 09:50:44 UTC
Bel Rick wrote:
Yep the guy is right.

A new player needs SP to dabble in things like mining or research or mission running or industry.

That in itself is a lot of SP needed, by the end of which they will discover. "mining is boring, industry is elitist and mission running really repetitive, ok ill try pvp"

Wait, all these pvp have what requirements / doctrines? 1 years worth of training????

Ok ill solo pvp...

Yeah that works for new players...


The current system keeps players out of the game which is a tragedy because eve does have a lot to offer.

20+ days for a lv5 research is rediculous made worse by the fact that a player cannot speed that up all the while unable to join in with corpmates doing fun things like stealth bombing or blackop dropping etc.

AND they also need to devote SP to ISK earning such as PVE.

So yeah, not a perfect system.


No level 5s that you absolutely HAVE to train are longer than 5 days.