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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#601 - 2013-05-29 15:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
So you mean that flying a very specific and specialized role such as 100km+ sentry drone sniper requires specialized fittings and training focused in that area? Incredible.

You know what I mean you're simply being a sarcastic jerk.

I'll explain it in novice for you. I mean that flying a battleship after training level 5 in that battleship, level 5 in targeting, and all the support skills as well as all the level 5 drone skills should give the pilot the ability to lock a target at 100km in a straight line.

The addition requirements are excessive and make subscribing and training all those skills a bit too much imo.


You know what I mean you are just whining.

Battleships are balanced around a default targeting range of about 75-95km after max skills not 100km+ after max skills. That's just how CCP designed the game.

100km+ is very long range for any BS and if you want to engage effectively at that range you will need specialized sniper training and fittings. Deal with it. You are expecting a general purpose combat ship to also act as a dedicated sniper without having to put any work or specialization into it. Boo hoo.

In fact if you had trained long range targeting 4 (rank 2), combat drone operation 5 (rank 2), and drone sharpshooting 5 (rank 1) instead of Gal BS 5 you would have had your 100km+ sentry drone sniper Domi in far less time than it took to get Gal BS from 4 to 5. It's not CCP's fault if you don't know how to read module and skill descriptions and make a training plan that trains your toon to do what you want to do.

Wait, you said that you already trained all those things. So I guess you just don't know how to fit a ship then?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#602 - 2013-05-30 06:01:43 UTC
I am making a comment on this thread not whining. Im a 2003 character. I'm currently sitting in a Vindi one shotting npcs from 200k. I have nothing to whine about for myself. Im speaking of new players and the excessive training they have to go through.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#603 - 2013-05-30 14:58:59 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I am making a comment on this thread not whining.

Really?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Im speaking of new players and the excessive training they have to go through.

I fail to see how long range targeting 4 (rank 2), combat drone operation 5 (rank 2), and drone sharpshooting 5 (rank 1) is excessive training when talking about a very specialized role. That's what, about two weeks? That's less time than it takes to be able to fly a cruiser competently. Especially when you consider that you should already have the first two before you even step into a Dominix.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#604 - 2013-05-30 22:44:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Airto TLA
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I am making a comment on this thread not whining.

Really?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Im speaking of new players and the excessive training they have to go through.

I fail to see how long range targeting 4 (rank 2), combat drone operation 5 (rank 2), and drone sharpshooting 5 (rank 1) is excessive training when talking about a very specialized role. That's what, about two weeks? That's less time than it takes to be able to fly a cruiser competently. Especially when you consider that you should already have the first two before you even step into a Dominix.


Cute but you missed a whole bunch of skills, Drone interfacing, Sentrry drones, Drone durabiility, Electronic warefare drones, etc.

This is what vets tend to forget, the massive number of skills that add some benefit to a ships combat performance, the funny thing is half them will then jump into a thread where someone complains about a ship and tell him he missing a long list of skills that take a minimum of 6 months to complete.

I am not necessarily saying dumb the game down, but the fact that some players do not like playig a game where they are restricted from being on an equal footing within a reasonable time, bothers them until they quit. In some cases equal footing may be two or more years.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#605 - 2013-05-30 22:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
All of which are not strictly needed to get a sentry domi to shoot stuff at 100km aside from sentry drone interfacing 1. They are all things you certainly should have though, although not necessarily at 5, before you step into a drone focused BS. And the previous poster claimed to have "all the drone skills" already anyway.

Also getting those skills, even all to 5, isn't going to take 6 months.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#606 - 2013-05-30 22:59:00 UTC
double post. I fail.
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#607 - 2013-05-31 03:34:42 UTC
This post is a fail i wont take the time of reading all hes points because i know things he does not realize

I made a new account with a 21 days trial before i re activate this account within 5 days i was doing lowsec roams and killing npcs making millions, by following the rule of choosing a ship the size of your skills, i beat within 21 days if i did some FW i could of had a plex and paid a new account without problems

Noobs are stupid and dont know what ship to drive and dont know how to drive them, they need to learn why they blow up but they think bigger = better

I remember having a dominix has a noob about 2 months in, it had like 300 dps or so, now that i think about it ifi would of trained for a AF i would of had about the same amount of dps and ALLOT more effective tank by that i mean i could tank level 4s, i could just not do level 4s for some reasons

The fact is smaller ships are better for new players because it learns them how to fly and they are easier to train for. Any arguments are invalid for me because its easy to get into eve if you know what to do

If CCP put into the tutorial why to not fly big ships and train for a small T2 ship instead it would leave lots of good players
(btw i am pretty sure i had my dominix within 1 month now that i think about it)
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#608 - 2013-05-31 08:57:14 UTC
Solutio Letum wrote:
This post is a fail [...]


Very accurate self assessment.

So noobs are stupid inexperienced? Why did noone notice that before you?

So what if there is a way for an experienced player to get by with low SP by concentrating on stuff that is highly efficient at low SP? That's completely irrelevant unless you can put all that information in an easily accessible tutorial or at least guide for new players.

And even then, maybe you were just lucky? For everyone making millions in low sec, there is a host of people who try and fail miserably, because low sec requires a different mindset than highsec.


You have 2-3 weeks MAXIMUM to communicate to a new player - in an environment where players are specifically warned not to be too trusting (i.e. you're not just trying to lure them into low sec to shoot them) - that there is an alternative to running lvl4 missions in a pirate faction BS or Marauder with perfect skills, before they start finding out about EFT and Evemon, see what flying those ships _efficiently_ requires and leave the game in disgust.

For potential null sec wannabees replace mission BS with capitals, because that's what the shiny battle reports out there advertise.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#609 - 2013-05-31 18:24:31 UTC
So you bought an acc and are whining..thats what this thread amounts to...The skill grind is what makes this game for me. Because I can kick the crap out of players that are cashers like you..thing is this..you buy the acc but not the skills to use it.

Yes player retention is an issue, do you think this thread is helping that? Cry

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#610 - 2013-05-31 20:02:55 UTC
SP is not game breaking. It's game making.

1. So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

- Nothing. SP is not a "problem" and CCP is not going to "fix" it. They've altered and improved skills so they make more sense but they are not removing SP.

2. Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

- No one.

3. This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

- By meeting other players.

4. I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.

- Don't worry, EVE grows in players each year.

5. If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

No one is listening and no one cares. EVE is not a game for everyone. That's really all there is to it. vOv

OP, your problem isn't SP, your problem is your attitude.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#611 - 2013-05-31 20:31:08 UTC
Just wondering where in the world you live...I do have a reason for asking as well.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Lysander Fairewell
Fluffy Butt Fleet
#612 - 2013-06-01 07:49:29 UTC
Skill Training Complete.

: : - These Burning Lights - : : - The adventures and thoughts of a newbie in EVE Online.

http://burninglightseve.blogspot.com/

Tsunamicom
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#613 - 2013-06-01 13:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsunamicom
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


When you ask what CCP is doing to make this better, just look at the next patch.

The next patch will be more new-player friendly regarding getting the ships you want by reducing the time it takes to train for a specific ship or set of ships overall, and cutting out extra train garbage that doesn't make sense. They are removing tiered training and replacing it with function specific training. This will allow your new players and friends to change their train plan to be more effective earlier for the specific task they want to complete.

Ref: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-great-skill-change-of-blessed-2013/

I'm sorry your friends all left you, and you had to 'buy' a character to feel important in the game. Maybe this game wasn't for them, or even you for that matter. I'd like to think that a sandbox game can be for anyone, but when you say you want a 'Mature' MMO you have to think of what makes this game mature. Is it the player base? I'd say that's a huge part of it. I'd also like to think that 'mature' players also recognize that you don't get anything for free and it takes time and investments to make your goals a reality.

I have a RL buddy who I play a large variety of games with, but I know EvE isn't for him because he wants to be the top of the charts "right now". FPS games are more his style because most of them you don't have to 'level up' persay to be effective. I've realized that and took that into consideration when figuring out what games to play with him.

If your friends just want an out-of-the-box shoot-em up, go with an FPS. But if they REALLY want the golden apple of fun and excitement, see if they stick to EvE.

Then again, one of my favorite quotes from the 'mature' players:
"When a player leaves EvE for a game like WoW, the average IQ of both games increases."

Good Luck in your travels.

-Tsunamicom
Isonda
suspended animations DOT
None Of The Above
#614 - 2013-06-01 13:46:35 UTC
My kid wanted to test out eve, so we did the 21 day trial account.
After 21 days he got a plex and could fly a mining barge, hauler and a mean rifter after 22 days.

Given that my kid does not read english, the game is somewhat hard, but, that is nothing compared to the 2003 players, having typically have to play for months to get their first battleship. Today, it is just a few USD and you get a plex, and that will fund you for a damn long time.

And the pilots at the bazars, they generally cost about as much as the skills+plex invested by the previous owner.
If you want to play with a 10 month old char, just buy 10 plex, sell them for isk, buy a pilot and you have skipped over 9 months of eve training.
Remeruse
#615 - 2013-06-01 18:30:53 UTC
After reading through the first 3 pages of this topic I (and quite a few tears in local about the same subject) I have the following to contribute.

*I will not be quoting anything specific.


(1) How much easier do new players want it? Tech I cruiser balances have made low sp dominated gangs more than viable. My main lives in low sec full time and I quite often see small gangs running around in frigs/cruisers with T1 Logi/ECM suppourt. You dont need to be in Black Ops ships with carrier suppourt to have fun fights....in fact you get much better and more frequent fights in cruiser/BC gangs.

(2) As mentioned by previous posters, the SP gap that the OP continues to harp on about does not exist. Every "fun" fleet requires tackle, scouts and every pilot can be useful with mid level cruiser skills. Yes ofc a 100 mil SP char has more options (read as ships and fit variations) than a 2 month old toon but ultimately its the pilot that makes the difference not the SP.

(3) Saying that it requires 1.5 - 2 years of training to be effective is plain wrong. That sort of perception has plagued Eve for years, at least you dont have to train learning skills :) .....but seriously I have flown and trained many pilots that think being in a Tech II ship means that they will win every engagement or discover some secret only shared with players that reach 20 mil sp.

(4) Eve is about small steps, skill wise and exprience wise but when it comes to plain fun its not called a MMO for no reason. Get 5 new players together that know nothing of the game and I predict 80% of them will quit :) Reason being is that Eve requires more experienced players to pass on knowledge and experience to extract the maximum ammount of fun from the game.

(5) I played Call of Duty once, didnt like the way everyone had better guns than me so I complained on a forum. After 5 pages of responses telling me I was wrong and this wasnt the game for me I decided that I was wrong and this game wasnt for me. Formed a suppourt group and moved on.


Oh and btw if anything it should be the older players complaining about how easy it is now for new players to get into cruiser gangs suppourted by Tech 1 Logi and EWAR cruiser and gank thier shiny Tech II ships (With HG Slaves fitted).

roger out.
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2013-06-03 16:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Korah Arnelle
I think the OP is missing some critical points being made which I myself have done on more than one occasion throughout my gaming life in EVE. Firstly, the bigger the ship isn't the better ship. I know I love my Megathron's badass look, but in reality I can't fly that thing worth the risk to fly it even in PVE. So, I'll fly my Myrmidon and sometimes my Dominix since I have my drone skills up to scratch for the most part (especially for Myrmidon, I don't have T2 sentries yet... Q_Q). Secondly, the real challenge in EVE is to find what you love doing and finding others who want to do it with you. If you can't get past that hurdle, no amount of SP will matter unless you're skilling up characters for PLEX. Which then have fun playing the markets, but if you don't like doing that then you're doing it wrong. Just sayin'.
Dray
Hun-Select
#617 - 2013-06-04 09:59:10 UTC
I've been playing the game for 10 years now though atm I'm not active beyond using an alt to help some newb friends get mission running standings and skill training.

In general terms the OP is correct, we can argue the point as much as we like over the time it takes to become effective or merely useful all day but no one can deny the difficulty of the game compared to others.

My newb friends are falling by the way side and there's only 2 left who are grinding it out but they are not having fun, even with my help in guiding them and to a lesser extent, funding them, most of them understood that Eve is a slow burner and they see the potential but they struggle at times.

All of them including the 2 who are left were impressed with the game, but the punishing learning curve took its toll more than the skill training, it's hard to justify paying for a game, even though you can see whats on offer, if you are simply not having enough fun.

There are 2 things that have stayed with me regarding new players leaving, firstly they realized the game wasn't for them and secondly and more importantly they weren't having fun, this along side the fact they could see the potential is, in 10 years of playing, the single most important factor in my opinion.

I wish there was a way to make it easier but without a fundamental change to the game, which could break it, I can't see it happening, but for all its difficulty the game has grown steadily and for the people who have stuck with it the pleasure it brings is immense, rewards are all the sweeter when there is a tangible risk attached. This is Eve, this is its challenge, it will never be for everyone, it's cruel and punishing, it is unforgiving, it takes a gigantic dump on your breakfast, and laughs at you while eat it, but the flip side of that coin make it the single best MMO out there bar none.

No game has consistently given me great gaming moments like Eve, don't get me wrong other games, single and multi-player, have given me a lot of pleasure but none have done it better than Eve or anywhere near as often.

To all the new players out there struggling all I can say is stick with it, find a corp that suits you and keep at it, maybe in the future CCP will find a way to balance the early game difficulty against the long term pleasure, but either way it's worth it.

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Shadow Cartel
#618 - 2013-06-04 12:35:14 UTC
It only takes a short time to become effective.

When I started this toon - I had no idea what to do and I felt the same way you do.
Also learning skills were around then. It was way worse once for new players.


When I started an alt a few years later - Learning skills had been removed, I knew what to train and head toward and it was effective within a few weeks.
Specializing is slower but to get a good pvp frigate or dessy going isn't too time consuming.


Don't make the mistake of thinking you need to fly the biggest ships with the biggest weapons to enjoy eve.
Another problem is people want to do everything at 1st. Indy, pvp, mining, manufacture, get the big ships they see at undock when your Eve toon should have a focus/profession.

Don't try to be a 'jack of all trades' (unless you've already trained everything you need).




Bakuhz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#619 - 2013-06-04 13:03:26 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


with good guidance you can fullfill a role in combat in hours to a few days it is not that hard this aint WoW do research and maybe join a unversity it helps enough people that help out and teach you basics in the sea of skills and ships

you just all think you can be a titan pilot in a month wake up and welcome to eve

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/

HEAVEE D
UmogStrica7Kobasica.co.rs
#620 - 2013-06-05 00:11:28 UTC
If this was a huge problem CCP would've changed it.

If CCP really wanted yours and everyone elses money that badly they would've changed it.

CCP has already taken into account the turnaround for whether new players subscribe or not and they are happy with things as they are or they would have changed it.

I've had a few RL friends who have played this game and none of them do now, but that doesn't bother me at all. They had similar reasons and they all started the same way I did, with nothing.

I think you realise early on if this is the game for you and the trial is usually long enough for that. I think if you have to raise these same issues that have been raised for years and nothing has been done then clearly there isn't a problem that needs to be fixed.

All in all, either you play or you don't. The OP spent cash to buy a char where some people actually spent alot of real effort getting to where they are today, you clearly want everything handed to you from the start or you wouldn;t have shelled out that cash.

Why should we listen to someone who can't even be bothered to play the game normally, took a huge shortcut and then still complains about it? If you want what seems to me like you thought would be "pay 2 win" then keep putting more cash in and buy another char it won't make the slightest bit of difference but I'm sure it'll shave all those years off you're so concerned about.

Nothing's gonna change any time soon - and even if it did, well you've just spent all that cash on a char for nothing haven't you?