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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2013-05-20 15:25:37 UTC
... And here we go again. Page 30 incoming. Ugh
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#582 - 2013-05-20 16:04:24 UTC
Why has no body linked any lyrics to 'The Wall' yet?


"All in all, were all just bricks in, the wall"
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#583 - 2013-05-20 17:17:46 UTC
Bel Rick wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A new player can kill an older player simply by employing appropriate tactics.


The only reliable tactics is to bring higher numbers, everything else would require prior knowledge of your opponent's setup to be able to create a counter fitting - which seems somewhat unlikely. (Also the veteran is more likely to have an OGB alt, since you brought them up.)


Stolen from another thread:
I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I ever had an SP advantage over my opponents:

Merlin vs Rifter
Merlin vs Claw
Merlin vs Crow
Merlin vs Raptor
Merlin vs Crusader (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis
Tristan vs Crow
Tristan vs Malediction

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics.

I had an idea how my opponents were fit before the engagements do to common fits and tactics. I fit up my ship to target specific ship types (speed tanking interceptors). These wins wer from purposely fitting a ship with a tactic in mind, then going out and keeping in mind what to engage, how to engage, and when to engage, which is far, far more relevant than the SP totals of me or my opponents.

Fitting up a ship to counter an opponent is not some impossible thing requiring a crystal ball! The truth is, most ships are fitup in one or two very common and predictable manners, with mild variations.

As for OGBs.... they have a much, much larger imbalancing effect on the game than SP. SP give you a 2-10% bonus, while an OGB will give you 30%+ more speed, 30%+ more EHP, 60%+ more tanking, 30%+ longer EWAR range & strengths, etc... OGB's are a bane on game balance, and while they are more accessible to older players (thanks to skilled alts, corp mates, etc), their effect on game is a completely different issue than High SP vs Low SP balance.



Your char goes back to 2009, what BS are you trying to pull???


And so do those kills...

You can be very successful at PvP if you use your brain before engaging. That's what those kills are about, where a cheap fit, t1 frigate that typically didn't have t2 modules was able to destroy t2 fit t2 frigs using tactics. SP's were irrelevant to the outcome of most of those fights.



Hamatitio
Death Row Inc.
#584 - 2013-05-20 23:50:40 UTC
I have lots of skill points, I routinely die to people with less skill points than myself.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that 95%+ of my deaths are to people with less skillpoints than myself.

Also, because of the whining about skillpoints i have made a completely unrelated alt, given him no isk, and am enjoying being a noob in this game again. Enjoying that feeling you get when you have trained a week to get into a ship, or to fit a new gun. Saving up isk for meta modules, or just sacrificing where its due.

People just play the game wrong.
Luis Alejandro Flores
Consume Obey
#585 - 2013-05-21 01:25:14 UTC
OP needs to join FW or Brave Newbies.

Ayyy LMAO.

Deych
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#586 - 2013-05-21 01:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Deych
On this character i started learning solo PVP. So i have about 2mil SP now Eveboard

And u know what? Its possible to kill things :)

Harpy
Hawk

Also there is some kills in 1vGang situation. like this

And many others - check my KB link

So just do it!
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#587 - 2013-05-24 15:14:45 UTC
I've only been around for about 6 months, but I've had fun the entire time. There is no reason for your skill points to hold you back from getting into pvp. I've been a part of killing everything from frigates to capital ships and I've lost my fair share of ships as well.

Hell, in my first month I even got in on a loki kill http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15378710

Eve is an MMO. If you want to get the most out of it, you have to join a corp. I was lucky enough to get picked up by a great bunch of guys who showed me that I could enjoy those huge ship battles i'd been dreaming about even without having a 20mil skillpoint character. Want to beat veterans? SPECIALIZE. That's all ya gotta do.

Step 1) Pick a ship you love, preferably battlecruiser or below
Step 2) Train up the specific skills that will make that ship more effective(hint: the recommended skills part of the ship info is helpful for this)
Step 3) PvP with this ship and lose it many times. Learn at least one thing each time you lose. Put it into practice the next time
Step 4) Start winning.

this is a good resource http://flight-of-dragons.blogspot.com/2011/02/plan-or-how-to-learn-to-solo-pvp-in-new.html

If you have done all of this and you still cant enjoy yourself, try a new profession. Maybe incursions or production are more your thing. For this entire thread, people have been nothing but helpful to you. Sure, some people express it in a slightly more angry way than others, but they have offered you tons of advice which your are either to ignorant or stubborn to accept. It always surprises me just how helpful this community is, even if they don't want to admit it. So stop snubbing your nose at their advice and try some of the ideas suggested. Otherwise GTFO. This community does not need you.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#588 - 2013-05-24 15:39:09 UTC
OP IS WRONG.

Highly effective pilots can be trained up in 3 months.
Including low and null sec needs.

I can see why his friends left.
I couldn't stand reading wall of text everyday either.

This thread is just a bunch of tears about self inflicted issues.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#589 - 2013-05-24 15:52:56 UTC
Oh boy, this thread. This isn't a game about instant gratification.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Vega Umbranox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#590 - 2013-05-25 05:10:15 UTC
seems like all your friends want instant gratification and wanna be uber pwnage straight away with no effort, think real life getting a new job at a company "WHAT your saying i wont be appointed CEO on the 1st few weeks!? i quit!" or better yet sports leagues etc... there are SO many things to do with low sp, i made do with 1 friend as a newbie and even we found loads of fun things to do until we skilled up enough for other more exciting ventures. not to attack but if your friends and you cant find anything to do with FIVE of you (i WISH i had 5 people i knew to play with itd be amazing even now!) then they are SERIOUSLY lacking in imagination.

what other people are saying is very true with knowledge being more valuable than sp. get your 5 friends in frigates, find a lone cruiser in lowsec or lone frig and go to town! even if u all die u will have fun (once u find one =P)

get your friends back for another month, mail me or someone else and come pvp or focus on some other venture.
and as im sure other people have said if u specialize u can catch up to 200mil sp characters in no time at all.

the way you speak u seem to think its "max skillz or go home" when skill points can be defeated if you use your head. 1v1 is when sp matters most imo for pvp and even then u could work around it

also, i do not use alts and i do fine
Squibly Xadi
#591 - 2013-05-25 05:29:30 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
this is sh*t.
there's a ton of stuff to do in eve for brand new players.

you DONT need all skills at 5 to be effective.
skills at 4 are, generally, 90-95% as effective as skills at 5 for anything a new player is likely to be doing.


I agree with this.
Also reading your OP it seems to me you are planning to far ahead without thinking of setting out a set of small goals/steps to reach this 1.5 year place you seem to want to be at. Tip for news players to EVE is to specalize in a couple things. For example assault ships and standard cruisers. Take you about 6 months tops to get really efficient with them imo.
Doing this will quickly bridge the gap between you and a 6 your old player of EVE. Why? because there is a finite amount of skills that can be brought to effect any one ship or POS or BPO or Production thing you want to do. Just because a 6 your old characture has a bunch more skills in science or armor than you counts for nothing if bothe of you are attacking each other in a shield/missile caracal that you have specialized in.
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2013-05-25 10:01:05 UTC
i dont mean to be rude, but you really need to learn your place, the eve experience is the journey, not the destination, i am sad to hear you missed the whole point...
Majindoom Shi
Nightmare Logistics
#593 - 2013-05-25 19:14:05 UTC
Because we all were not new players at some point lol.
Just think about the tears if they still had learning skills hahaha.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#594 - 2013-05-27 00:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
DooDoo Gum wrote:
i dont mean to be rude, but you really need to learn your place, the eve experience is the journey, not the destination, i am sad to hear you missed the whole point...



With me being almost a decade old in this game( 2 months away), the journey was there at one point in time, especially for the first several years, but now that everything the game allows has been acheived, be it isk, implants, hardwires, skill points, flying all ships in game and did all professions till i'm ready to throw up, it's becoming a very aimless thing until there's more content specifically aimed at the old farts of the game.



I know and agree that the content over the last few years, has been aimed to make the game wider and easier for the newer players, in order to ensure it's long term survival and we're at a point where people will like the game or hate it, so CCP did all they could do and going even further risks watering the game even more than it already is.



So it's time to go deeper rather than wider for the next few patches and add content for those that have been with the game practically since the start, since without us sticking with the game for this long, putting up with all the exploits, crashes and game balance issues( especially in the first couple of years), it wouldn't be where it is today, so it's time for some attention to add deeper content to strive for that would be hard to acheive even for the old players of eve, otherwise you'll just see more of the old guys leave the game out of sheer boredom and having nothing to aim for.
Susurrus Synaesthesia
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#595 - 2013-05-27 13:05:31 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.


I have no idea where you got this from. Effective at what? Building battleships and blitzing incursions? I trained up to a T2 tengu in about my first three months and could solo L4s, C1s, C2s and could join incursion runs. Then I got bored of highsec and moved to low, where I greatly enjoyed running a SB for fights and scouting. My second char got on a carrier kill when she was three weeks old because she lit the cyno, admittedly died and reshipped, but came back in a t1 Rifter for the glory...

Make friends, join a corp. Low SP will prevent some activities, yes, but you have to work your way up just like everyone else. The game would be boring if you could fly a Nyx two months in, and then you'd probably cry when you lost your $900 ship to a small gang because you didn't know what the **** you were doing.
Alexandria Nero
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2013-05-28 02:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandria Nero
I recently had 3 friends join the game. 1 of them quit after a week due to the fact that the only the only thing he wanted to fly was a carrier/dread, and that would take too long time. The other 2 have acctually came to their senses and are training for frigs, destroyers and cruisers.
After 7 days of training and with alittle money help from me ( for now) they are doing roams and missions without much help.
Im guessing loads of new players dont join newb-friendly corps either so they dont have any help when they start and then dont know what they should train for diferent skills which then wastes their time. This will make them take longer time until they can fly the ships they want to use, and thry will get bored
Revrend Uncle Ruckus
#597 - 2013-05-28 03:28:30 UTC
Alexandria Nero wrote:
I recently had 3 friends join in the game. 1 of them quit after a week due to the fact that the only the only thing he wanted to fly was a carrier/dread, and that would take too long time. The other 2 have acctually came to their senses and are training for frigs, destroyers and cruisers.
After 7 days of training and with alittle money help from me ( for now) doing roams and missions without much help.
Im guessing loads of new players dont join newb-friendly corps either so they dont have any help when they start and then dont know what they should train for diferent skills which then wastes their time. This will make them take longer time until they can fly the ships they want to use, and thry will get bored


Well I am new and recently joined the game, but I guess I read enough to know that big ships are off the menu for a long time.

I'm thrilled to find out about the stuff I can do as a new player, although I haven't found a corp to settle in with yet, but I will admit that it isn't the easiest thing to get information about. From what I have read and experienced so far the bulk of what's written in guide format takes for granted a lot of skillpoints and in many cases a second account. That isn't to say all of it is that way or that there are no work-around, but yeah; if you only take a cursory glance at what's hot in the game then you might easily come to the conclusion that you are excluded until you have been training for many months.

I guess at this point I must conclude, personally, that skills don't feel gamebreaking. I found out where I can fight in a cheap frigate without much problem and I am slowly learning about places where I can earn some income to recoup those losses. The fact that none of my actions impacts how fast I train honestly feels like a perk. It's very refreshing coming from other games where they have engineered a constant treadmill you feel obligated to get on each day in order to catch up. In EVE I don't feel like I am catching up. I'm simply joining in on the action.

Now, I want everybody to find the nearest minmatar and lay hands on him. But first, make sure your hand is balled up in a fist so you can beat the black outta his soul. God smiles when you hate blackness so you beat that matar in the name of the Almighty!

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#598 - 2013-05-28 16:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
I sort of agree. Some of the skills are just stupid. I just came back after 3 years out of game. I have jump drive operation trained. I buy a MJD and try fit it. Nope. Then Im sitting 100 km from a target waiting for it to get to 92km to shoot it because my battleship cant lock it till then. I have to fit a sensor booster which requires me to train more skills to lock a ship thats only 100km away. Then my drones cant attack it. I have to fit a rig which requires more training or a drone module which requires more training.

If the Gallante guys came from earth their tech really went downhill because we can send a cruise missile 500km with its on board guidance system following terrain and these guys cant design a battleship that can lock another battleship 100km away in a straight line. Skills are a bit excessive in number and time for newbs.

Im a 2003 player and admit that.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#599 - 2013-05-28 20:01:26 UTC
So you mean that flying a very specific and specialized role such as 100km+ sentry drone sniper requires specialized fittings and training focused in that area? Incredible.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#600 - 2013-05-29 11:35:49 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
So you mean that flying a very specific and specialized role such as 100km+ sentry drone sniper requires specialized fittings and training focused in that area? Incredible.

You know what I mean you're simply being a sarcastic jerk.

I'll explain it in novice for you. I mean that flying a battleship after training level 5 in that battleship, level 5 in targeting, and all the support skills as well as all the level 5 drone skills should give the pilot the ability to lock a target at 100km in a straight line.

The addition requirements are excessive and make subscribing and training all those skills a bit too much imo.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)