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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Frezinviper
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#441 - 2013-04-29 11:11:05 UTC
Loney Slave wrote:
Master Account wrote:
Horny Guy wrote:
Loney wrote:
COPY AND REPLY TO THIS IF YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA SO THE DEVS WILL TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT IT

Overall I like all the changes suggested in the Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog... However I have a suggestion related to the ICE mining.

If CCP is reducing the ICE in HIGHSEC and giving more ORE incentive for players to move players to LOWSEC or NULLSEC then you need to do something about the COMPRESSION game mechanics.

Suggestions

1. Buff the RORQUAL stats for compression.
a. Increase the ICE/ORE HOLD by 100%.
b. Increase the COMPRESSION FACTORY SLOTS by 100%
c. Decrease the COMPRESSION TIME by 50%.

If my numbers are not realistic (I think they are) please do your own calculations and adjust them as necessary.

2. Create a POS module for ICE/ORE COMPRESSION.
a. Make it big like a Rorqual and take up a lot of CPU/POWER resources on the POS.
or
b. Make it small like a refinery so you can put several of them on a POS.

This could be done instead of changing the Rorqual stats or it can be done as a added feature/option.

Thanks,
Loney

COPY AND REPLY TO THIS IF YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA SO THE DEVS WILL TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT IT


+1


I like this idea... Doing this would give much more incentive for moving to 0.0 and mining since its a pain in the @$$ to haul the ice/ore... even when if one chooses to refine it before hauling!


I like the idea of making more options for compression instead of just the Rorqual as the bottleneck factor, but I think if they just change some of the stats on the Rorqual there would not be a need for other things like a POS or Station compression mechanics.

My ides for Rorqual:

GOOD THINGS

First - Make the ORE and ICE be taken from the ORE ICE cargo hold of the ship before compression and delivered to the SHIP cargo hold after compression. This will allow for 250 pieces to be compressed in one time instead of the CURRENT LIMIT of the SHIPS cargo hold.

Second - Give the Rorqual a ship bonus of -%5 production time for compression per level of ship skill. So with a level 5 Rorqual pilot you would have a -25% reduction time in the compression of ORE ICE products.

Third - give the ship more production slots. The current 4 slots limits the ships ability to actually be useful for compression when conducting a mining operation. Currently with the Exhumers abilities to mine massive amounts of stuff and with the suggested -50% decrease in ICE cycle time 4 slots is not enough to keep up with mining productions. I say increase the slot to at least 8-11 slots.

Okay now: I understand CCP's whole ISK sink vs faucet debate so I can't give recommendations for making things better without making them worse too!

BAD THINGS

First - For all the above added features of the Rorqual there should be some cost, right? Well I say that you should TRIPLE the Heavy Water usage while in siege deployed mode. This will not only make the extra features of the ship justifiable but also give a rise to the very under utilized and poor market factor of Heavy Water (though not by much honestly).

Second - Okay I don't have any other things.

This is my thoughts and I'm sticking to them!


^^^ Make this happen please!
Argel OTF2
The Free Republic of OTF2
#442 - 2013-04-29 11:26:36 UTC
As a new player who has ended up pretty much living in lowsec, I can't help but feel the whole gravimetric thing is wrong. The advantage of such a site is that casual players will not be interested enough - or have the right fit - to probe you down. By opening it up to the point where anyone can just d-scan, see a retriever or other barge, and immediately warp to within 30km is going to put people off lowsec mining. Surely anyone can see that a barge with a 10 second warp time is going to die every time unless they carry ECM drones/mods/stabs and are VERY lucky in facing an opponent who is unprepared for such things. the only way to counter this would be as a mining fleet and as mentioned before in this thread, such things are rare. I've seen one lowsec mining fleet - all the same person with 6 alts - in 4 months of lowsec.

You can add rewards but the fear of death and logistical nightmare of hauling ore through gatecamps - and now knowing that you can't even get a relatively safe spot to mine in peace - are what stops people mining in lowsec. Nothing in this patch will change that dynamic, in fact the very people who cling to highsec space will now see lowsec as a death trap.

I'm all for fear of death, hell I'd love the opp to gank some miners with a new character like this one, but this is not the way to entice people in. The rewards needed to go up but the fear of death is already a massive factor because of vulnerability at gates. I don't see how increasing risk AND reward is meant to rebalance anything?
Ereilian
Doomheim
#443 - 2013-04-29 12:02:51 UTC
Argel OTF2 wrote:
As a new player who has ended up pretty much living in lowsec, I can't help but feel the whole gravimetric thing is wrong. The advantage of such a site is that casual players will not be interested enough - or have the right fit - to probe you down. By opening it up to the point where anyone can just d-scan, see a retriever or other barge, and immediately warp to within 30km is going to put people off lowsec mining. Surely anyone can see that a barge with a 10 second warp time is going to die every time unless they carry ECM drones/mods/stabs and are VERY lucky in facing an opponent who is unprepared for such things. the only way to counter this would be as a mining fleet and as mentioned before in this thread, such things are rare. I've seen one lowsec mining fleet - all the same person with 6 alts - in 4 months of lowsec.

You can add rewards but the fear of death and logistical nightmare of hauling ore through gatecamps - and now knowing that you can't even get a relatively safe spot to mine in peace - are what stops people mining in lowsec. Nothing in this patch will change that dynamic, in fact the very people who cling to highsec space will now see lowsec as a death trap.

I'm all for fear of death, hell I'd love the opp to gank some miners with a new character like this one, but this is not the way to entice people in. The rewards needed to go up but the fear of death is already a massive factor because of vulnerability at gates. I don't see how increasing risk AND reward is meant to rebalance anything?


This is not a real attempt to make lowsec mining viable, that much is pretty clear from the other changes. Rather it is a forced push to make nullsec the only place ingame where mining will be profitable. Considering the attitude towards industry by many nullbears (enjoy the nerfs to your rat faucets) I think nothing CCP can do, apart from removing mining totally to nullsec, will make many of us move out and have to deal with the political bullshit that comes with nullsec. Its not about risk, its about epeen fed alliances that at the same time as buying your work to make their shineys, spits in your faces as carebears. No thanks, pass on that.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#444 - 2013-04-29 12:04:53 UTC
Hardwick Johnson wrote:
Fozzie:

I have three main questions.

1) Has any thought been given to seeding all the common ore types to all racial highsec space?
Currently, Caldai highsec has no access to isogen, which puts a crimp on manufacturing. All other regions of New Eden contain the 5 common elements needed for basic manufacturing


I wouldn't be so sure. Lots of people in providence are crying, because they have no mexallon (only in grav sites, which doesn't provide enough supply).

But yeah, this issue exists.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#445 - 2013-04-29 12:36:27 UTC
Now just fix those POS refining arrays and this will be awesome.
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#446 - 2013-04-29 12:49:55 UTC
I put the devblog through gizoogle:

Quote:
Wuz crackalackin' once again n' again n' again brave spacecaptains yo. Hoes call me CCP Fozzie n' I’m here ta brang you our next Dev Blizzay coverin EVE Online’s 19th free expansion, Odyssey. For tha expansion dat arrives so close ta our game’s tenth anniversary, we is turnin our attention ta tha original gangsta promise of EVE; a universe of wonder is waitin fo' you n' yo' playaz ta explore n' exploit fo' realz. As part of our focus on tha adventure of explorin tha nuff star systemz of New Eden, we is plannin ta revamp a shitload of tha rewardz dat tha universe itself provides ta enterprisin capsuleers whoz ass is willin ta reach up n' seize em.

Home is where tha crib is
These thangs is basically just straight-up big-ass spaceships right?.......
Outposts may seem like a unusual addizzle ta a resource shakeup devB-ta-tha-L-O-Gizzay yo, but up in realitizzle tha fatez of resource harvestin n' industrial gameplay is too intertwined fo' our asses ta improve one without pimpin-out tha other.

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#447 - 2013-04-29 13:03:28 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.

Please reconsider this change, as this basically kills mining in wormholes.

Right now, mining in WHs is only barely safe by virtue of your opponents needing to get probes out to find you, and an experienced prober can still find you with the probes only being visible on dscan for less than 30 seconds. But that still gives the victim--I mean, miner--a small chance to spot the probes and GTFO before it's too late.

With grav sites being anoms, you have only a few seconds' window to spot the attacker (if their incoming wh is within dscan range, the short period between wh cloak and true cloak), or no window at all. There is no reasonable room for pilots to "practice vigilance" outside of gimping your yield by replacing one of your strip miners with a scan probe launcher. A 50% yield loss makes it a waste of time.

The rest of the changes look good, but mining in WHs will become significantly more dangerous in Odyssey if ore sites become anomalies.



+1

I wonder how on earth anyone will mine now in WHs. I can not really imagine a guarding fleet. Since guarding duty is dull and people want fun for their time. Hope CCP adjusts this somehow.
Garan Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#448 - 2013-04-29 13:22:32 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Now just fix those POS refining arrays and this will be awesome.


+1 for this one. There is absolutely no reason for pos refining arrays to be so atrociously ineffective considering they require an active pos and can't be anchored in hi-sec.
Also, I think that they should allow moon mining in 0.4 systems. Like, seriously, why was that restriction introduced anyway?
Tandin
Cascadia Shipyards
#449 - 2013-04-29 13:29:10 UTC
Outpost Suggestion: Fix the undock on the caldari outpost. As soon as you undock you're automatically kicked out of docking range and this has always been a problem with it. This is part of why they're so uncommon (along with the crappy research/manufacturing line configuration).

I mean, why does the best looking outpost have the worst characteristics?
Markius TheShed
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#450 - 2013-04-29 13:41:25 UTC
I really can't see the reasoning behind having no Ice spawns in WHs, All these changes to ice are pushing people to ice mine in low sec and create conflict, making high end ores spawn in low as well is trying to get more people to low sec.

So why not create more conflict in whs with more easy to scan ice spawns??? At the minute if you want to get your ice in to the Wh you use a uncatchable bloackade runner and perform 20 mindnumbing trips with no conflict and just tedium as the outcome.

**Murientor Tribe** a capsuleer organization composed of radical Minmatar. Since YC107
Hakkon Oskold
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#451 - 2013-04-29 13:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakkon Oskold
I love every change there is from one part

where in amarr space the Amarr ice is. there is also a few selections of ice systems that are weird were two systems with ice is near each other when more remote ones is removed.


-- I don't ice mine on my main and i think mining is sutch a dull experience that i don't have the "heart" to do it.
, others may disagree.

Lets look at the Areas and its highsec icebelts:

Pre Patch:
Genessis - Agal, Avyuh , Hadji, Iderion, Mantirid, Sigga,
Kador - Chanoun, Dantan, Jakari, Kamda, Koona, Kothe, Miah, Munory, Nebura , Rayeret, Turba,
Domain - Aera, Afivad, Azizora, Basahakri. Clarelam, Esteban, Fabum, Gosalav, Isamm, Knophitikoo, Luromooh, Martha, Nalu, Niarja, Pedel, Warouh,
Tash-murkon - Anjedin,Goram, Ivih, Jazzalad, Kari, Moutid, Seil,
Khanid - Ervekam, Gilalid, Geztic, Kerberz, Moniyyuku, Molea, Moro, Saloti, Talidal
kor-azor - Choga, Ordion,
Arida, - Avada (highsec iland)
The Bleak Lands - Ekrinen (highsec iland)
Devoid - Arveyil, Dihra, Esescama, Riavayed,
Derelik - Gamis, Gelhan, Ihal, Moh(highsec iland) , Orva, Serad,

Post Patch:
Genesis - Agal, Mantirid,
Kador - Chanoun, Dantan, Kothe, Miah
Domain - Afivad, Esteban, Gosalav, Warouh,
Tash-murkon - Jazzalad, Moutid, Seil,
Khanid - Talidal
kor-azor - Ordion,
Arida, - Avada (highsec iland)
The Bleak Lands - Ekrinen (highsec iland)
Devoid - Dihra,Riavayed,
Derelik - Gamis, Gelhan,

result
Genesis - only ice in West and middle of area
Kador - with Rayeret gone it hits Genesis since its a border system. otherwise its evenly spread.
Domain - west part of map got no more ice.
Tash-murkon - not hit very mutch Kari could be argued as its a lowsec entry system
Khanid - hit hard only ice in the south now.
kor-azor - not hit very much.
Arida - not hit (only ice in highsec iland)
The Bleak Lands - not hit (only ice in highsec iland)
Devoid - lost the ice in the highsec iland to lowsec.
Derelik - ice only in west south now .... and the belts are close to each other.



I might have missed some and probl. done some spelling errors on the names of the systems but as far as my highsec ice analysis stands
Khanid, Genesis, Derelik Domain got hit hard.

I my self wouldn't mind if the ice in the two highsec ilands been moved to other parts of highsec since its practicaly unaccessable from highsec and should be classed as elevated lowsec.
that whould hit Arida and Bleak lands but on the other hand thoes system are iland systems in the middle of lowsec.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#452 - 2013-04-29 15:25:16 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
NAIRA HOKULANI wrote:
CCP you must never been an industrialist in a Null Sec Alliance.

Alliance
1. We must go help kill that XXXX Dreadnaught/Titan etc over 2 region over.
2. We need everyone to be in a fleet because we might need a Call to Arms to go Save Alliance XXX's bacon.
3. We need everyone in a Fleet because we want to look good/important to our brother Alliance members during this op.
4. Etc

Industrialist
1. We need to have to protection for our ore mining/ice mining Fleets?
Alliance: wanker off you wimps we have more important things to do like rat.

I have been in several Null Sec Alliances over my years they all end up like the 1, 2


Your inability to see the wood for the trees is impressive. What you describe is a symptom of the existing imbalance between 0.0 and empire - there's currently no reason for sov powers to assist or accomodate industrialists in their space since using Jita jump freighter runs for everything is the outright superior option. Fix that imbalance, incentivise nullsec player activity over moon mining alone, and nullsec powers will either evolve to accomodate you, or lose their space to others that do.



No, what she is saying is this is how null sec is and the proposed changes do nothing to alter that.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#453 - 2013-04-29 15:31:10 UTC
Magic Crisp wrote:
Hardwick Johnson wrote:
Fozzie:

I have three main questions.

1) Has any thought been given to seeding all the common ore types to all racial highsec space?
Currently, Caldai highsec has no access to isogen, which puts a crimp on manufacturing. All other regions of New Eden contain the 5 common elements needed for basic manufacturing


I wouldn't be so sure. Lots of people in providence are crying, because they have no mexallon (only in grav sites, which doesn't provide enough supply).

But yeah, this issue exists.





As it should, and more so.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#454 - 2013-04-29 16:25:52 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed some personal attacks on CCP from this thread.


If it wasn't for the fact that CCP seems to struggle with the idea this change was unpopular and poorly thought out, perhaps there would be less name calling?

Didn't CCP used to have an economist on staff? If they bothered to ask him, I'm sure he'd tell them just how badly this is about to crush EvE's economy. Not just in minor ways, I'm talking a massive body blow, and not just to high sec. After all this time trying to bring the value of minerals up, this completely devalues trit. We're talking a major glut of high secs major export.

Frankly, this is the second worst idea I've heard come out of Fan Fest (The worst was to change combat).

I mean, I know the much ballyhooed 'sandbox' is a big fat lie, CCP has been making it clear that we will play as CCP wills it or be punished, but really, you can't find anything better to do than jerk around the few things that almost work rather than fix the things that are still utterly broken?
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#455 - 2013-04-29 17:24:46 UTC
Ice Change is potentially economy breaking mechanic as limiting the supply of the individual ice types can lead to issues, especially with 0.0 entities being limited on the types of ice each can mine. While the outcome of this may end in content it is undoubtedly going to result in market shortfalls and chaos across New Eden in the long run as things don't balance according to metrics because some idiot will undoubtedly buy a freighter load of isotopes and get ganked or the alternative, smart rich people will merely strip the market because they can allowing for monopolies to form.

To go with this change I would like to request that the regional / racial seedings of the isotope ice be removed and a mixture of ice be seeded everywhere, or at least in 0.0 so sov entities have the ability to supply themselves.

Grav sites scannable like anomalies, that is the ONLY thing a 0.0 miner has going for them, this change is a complete nerf to null sec industry.

The argument that was stated to me complaining about making grav sites scannable like anomalies was to bubble up a dead end pocket and secure it. But There is no ability to secure any 0.0 space if all it takes is 1 cloaking ship with a cyno to sneak in before / after downtime or just you know a tech 3 with interdiction nullified to come in and miss being decloaked because if you put enough things on a gate to 100% stop them from cloaking its an exploit.

Cloaky camping has forever been a broken mechanic and has been augmented recently by the black ops / t3 covert cyno buffs that came earlier this year. I'm not going to suggest what you do, there's plenty of it already out there, just make a change that removes the ability to sit cloaked AFK for an INFINITE amount of time.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#456 - 2013-04-29 18:34:49 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
But There is no ability to secure any 0.0 space if all it takes is 1 cloaking ship with a cyno to sneak in before / after downtime or just you know a tech 3 with interdiction nullified to come in and miss being decloaked because if you put enough things on a gate to 100% stop them from cloaking its an exploit.

Cloaky camping has forever been a broken mechanic and has been augmented recently by the black ops / t3 covert cyno buffs that came earlier this year. I'm not going to suggest what you do, there's plenty of it already out there, just make a change that removes the ability to sit cloaked AFK for an INFINITE amount of time.


Cloaks will probably be less of an issue when twitch based combat hits. (According to Massively)

I am starting to wonder, if we need to change mining, and industry, and combat, and missions, what about eve do the devs LIKE, exactly, other than our steady fifteen bucks a month?
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2013-04-29 19:03:34 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if you put frigs (scrambling or otherwise) in forsaken hubs, you will have nerfed the last little bit of good isk making in null sec anoms. The close range battlecruisers that a lot of people use to do them will become un-usable (unless you add drones bays to all the former tier 3s that do't have them, namely the naga).

The frigless forsaken hub is the only anomaly that sub caps can use to match some empire isk making pve techniques (liek incursions and empire DED farming). This seems a big huge mistake as it will only nerf individual pilot isk making. Not fatal, but defineately a serious wound.

A better idea would be scramming cruisers for hubs with like a 35 km scram range. The problem with forsaken hubs is lack of scramming things, not lack of frigs.


You dont understand less isk per tick is good for deflation... And scram frigs mean more dead nullbears


You are so clueless it's painful. No scramming frigs does not mean more dead nullbears. It means fewer ratters and the ones who bother will be having to pay far more attention, meaning they are far more likely to notice when that neutral is reported in intel or pops into system. And no they won't be scrambled because those frigs will be the first thing dealt with in any wave.

Course we've known for some time that CCP wouldn't address the imbalance by improving other anomalies but would instead nerf forsaken hubs so they suck just as much as all the others.


This is a horrible idea but certainly doesn't surprise me, well at least all the isk I'm rat holing now will be worth more if this ill advised change goes live. To bad for those who come after.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#458 - 2013-04-29 19:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
The real issue is that CCP is failing to address the fact that this will hit every commodities market in game like a sledgehammer, as it heavily alters one of the most fundamental underpinning of the market: PvP and the the value of minerals.

I mean, this is basic stuff, here that they're ignoring. It's already started rampant speculation (nor surprise there) but also the bottom is now dropping out of the mineral market, since 0.0 will no longer have to be supplied from high sec thanks to a gigantic handout from CCP.


Every corp in eve is now hoarding ice like mad, either on speculation or to prevent being caught 'out in the cold' with thier POS operations.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#459 - 2013-04-29 19:25:41 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if you put frigs (scrambling or otherwise) in forsaken hubs, you will have nerfed the last little bit of good isk making in null sec anoms. The close range battlecruisers that a lot of people use to do them will become un-usable (unless you add drones bays to all the former tier 3s that do't have them, namely the naga).

The frigless forsaken hub is the only anomaly that sub caps can use to match some empire isk making pve techniques (liek incursions and empire DED farming). This seems a big huge mistake as it will only nerf individual pilot isk making. Not fatal, but defineately a serious wound.

A better idea would be scramming cruisers for hubs with like a 35 km scram range. The problem with forsaken hubs is lack of scramming things, not lack of frigs.


You dont understand less isk per tick is good for deflation... And scram frigs mean more dead nullbears


You are so clueless it's painful. No scramming frigs does not mean more dead nullbears. It means fewer ratters and the ones who bother will be having to pay far more attention, meaning they are far more likely to notice when that neutral is reported in intel or pops into system. And no they won't be scrambled because those frigs will be the first thing dealt with in any wave.

Course we've known for some time that CCP wouldn't address the imbalance by improving other anomalies but would instead nerf forsaken hubs so they suck just as much as all the others.


This is a horrible idea but certainly doesn't surprise me, well at least all the isk I'm rat holing now will be worth more if this ill advised change goes live. To bad for those who come after.


Bolded up the important part. When CCP nerfed anoms in the past , what happened? A few kept doing anoms as they had or adapted in someway, while many others simply took those ratting alts to empire to do missions and incursions. Their is a threshold (i honestly don't know what it is, but it exists) where too much bother = "go do something else.

The problem with this is that it means fewer pvp targets and less destruction of materials/ships because people are PVEing under CONCORD protection while pumping out similar levels of isk. Any way you cut it, thats bad for the game, which I belive is why CCP had to turn right around and buff the anoms that got nerfed (ie wasting time and money fixing something that should nto have been broken in the 1st place).

Done wrong this anomaly change can have similar effects, and no one cares because anom farming isn't something most people do so they don't know to be concerned.
Also, buffing sanctums and nerfing forsaken hubs also has another negative anti-pvp consequence. Sanctums escalate to DED 10/10s, which take you to ONE location. Forsaken Hubs escalate to Fleet Staging point, which (because it escalates 2 more times are the initial one) can fly you all over the place. More jumping around means more chance for pvp.

I lost a dominix this week going to a Fleet Staging point 3 (who scouts with a domi...I DO!!), with a 10/10, i wouldn't have even been in that region (a region next door to where i rat).
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#460 - 2013-04-29 20:22:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I realize you and others like you have no concept of game balance, but that's no reason to accuse CCP of favoritism.


I realize that you and your pals are just null zealots mouthing insults and don't work for CCP as game designers so, I'll just ignore you.

It's obvious that CCP does favor null sec play as they've always maintained that 0.0 was the "end game" (an odd concept for a supposed sandbox style game), many of their senior devs come from the ranks of the largest 0.0 alliances and many dev's posts over the years have spoken of forcing people out of high sec. How is one not supposed to see that as favoritism?

Also, you missed the part where I said that there were broken elements in null that needed to be addressed but, not at the expense of high sec players.