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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Author
Oliver G
G Enterprises
#481 - 2013-04-30 10:05:11 UTC
Currently, I am running a one-man-POS and have to grab all the fuel myself. At the moment, this is no problem as all the PI product can be gathered easily and the possibility to AFK mine ice enables me to run the computer for a few hours a week to get the necessary ice products. It is tideous work, but I enjoy the research at my POS and building stuff for my local mission hub.

However, with the changes about to be implemented I feel that it becomes virtually impossible for me to retain my POS. Not only can't I AFK-mine ice anymore, I also have to locate the belts first. As far as I can see, not a single high-sec ice anomaly will exists in the whole Khanid Kingdom region. How am I supposed to get the ice? Solo mine in low using a Mackinaw? How is that supposed to follow the risk/reward rule? I simply cannot defend myself there - not even against the NPC belt-rats. Using multiple account? Is that the way the game must be played now? One person - multiple accounts?

All the proposed changes do NOT make ice mining more interesting -- ice mining will become more like mining gravimetric asteroid belts in low sec. Is that fun for a one-man-mining-operation? No. Will I be able to retain my POS? No.

I do agree with CCP that some changes are needed to the whole ice-mining (and mining in general). However, in my opinion, these changes should promote the gameplay and actually introduce some fun in doing the mining. It should NOT make it impossible for solo-players to actually play the game the way they want. What about the sandbox? It is about to become a lot smaller for me.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#482 - 2013-04-30 10:39:54 UTC
Oliver G wrote:
As far as I can see, not a single high-sec ice anomaly will exists in the whole Khanid Kingdom region.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Khanid/Talidal will be getting Ice anomalies, 3 of them at that.
Oliver G
G Enterprises
#483 - 2013-04-30 10:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Oliver G
Lord Haur wrote:
Oliver G wrote:
As far as I can see, not a single high-sec ice anomaly will exists in the whole Khanid Kingdom region.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Khanid/Talidal will be getting Ice anomalies, 3 of them at that.


No just because Dotlan says it does does not necessarily mean that it does.

I am quoting from the DEVBLOG!

Quote:
Most systems that currently have ice belts will contain these new ice anomalies, with the notable exception of many systems in Amarrian, Khanid, and Ammatar high security space. Below I will list all the systems in high security space that will contain spawns of Clear Icicle.

Afivad, Agal, Avada, Bashakru, Chanoun, Dantan, Dihra, Erkinen, Esteban, Gamis, Gelhan, Gosalav, Jarzalad, Jerma, Kothe, Manatirid, Miah, Moutid, Ordion, Raravoss, Riavayed, Seil, Talidal, Warouh.

These will be the only high security systems that will contain Clear Icicle.


None of the mentioned systems is in Khanid high-sec. Ergo, no high-sec anomalies.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#484 - 2013-04-30 10:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
Oliver G wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
Oliver G wrote:
As far as I can see, not a single high-sec ice anomaly will exists in the whole Khanid Kingdom region.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Khanid/Talidal will be getting Ice anomalies, 3 of them at that.


No just because Dotlan says it does does not necessarily mean that it does.

I am quoting from the DEVBLOG!

Quote:
Most systems that currently have ice belts will contain these new ice anomalies, with the notable exception of many systems in Amarrian, Khanid, and Ammatar high security space. Below I will list all the systems in high security space that will contain spawns of Clear Icicle.

Afivad, Agal, Avada, Bashakru, Chanoun, Dantan, Dihra, Erkinen, Esteban, Gamis, Gelhan, Gosalav, Jarzalad, Jerma, Kothe, Manatirid, Miah, Moutid, Ordion, Raravoss, Riavayed, Seil, Talidal, Warouh.

These will be the only high security systems that will contain Clear Icicle.


None of the mentioned systems is in Khanid high-sec. Ergo, no high-sec anomalies.

Please read the bold.

edit: There, I underlined it too.
Oliver G
G Enterprises
#485 - 2013-04-30 11:04:58 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
stuff...
edit: There, I underlined it too.


Ah lol. Thanks for pointing it out.

Too bad its on the other side of Khanid for me.

Anyway, we have one system with anomalies for ice mining for a whole region. That still does not look good to me.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#486 - 2013-04-30 11:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
It's to keep the numbers of ice belts consistent by type. Amarr-oriented space (includes Khanid/Ammatar) is considerably larger, thus the ice belts are more spread out.


If you're over the Moniyyuku/Palas side of Khanid, you may find the Ordion ice belt convenient.
Oliver G
G Enterprises
#487 - 2013-04-30 11:10:53 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
It's to keep the numbers of ice belts consistent by type. Amarr-oriented space (includes Khanid/Ammatar) is considerably larger, thus the ice belts are more spread out.


Which is something I do not understand. Sholudn't they make the "density in relation to space" constant, not the "number by empire"?
Oliver G
G Enterprises
#488 - 2013-04-30 11:13:58 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
If you're over the Moniyyuku/Palas side of Khanid, you may find the Ordion ice belt convenient.


Yes, I am at that side. However, plotting a course from my location to Ordion results in 9 jumps Cry

I think I must completely re-locate my stuff if I want to continue using my one-man-POS. ..... oh man that will be fun.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#489 - 2013-04-30 11:21:04 UTC
Oliver G wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
It's to keep the numbers of ice belts consistent by type. Amarr-oriented space (includes Khanid/Ammatar) is considerably larger, thus the ice belts are more spread out.


Which is something I do not understand. Sholudn't they make the "density in relation to space" constant, not the "number by empire"?

Because the highsec ice supply is being reduced to provide approx. 80% of the total ice usage, the racial ice types need to be of a similar number. Allowing the Amarr to keep their current number of ice belts would result in highsec being capable of supplying the entire Helium Isotope market, which is obviously not an option for this game design choice.

However, you do have a point in that more systems could have ice if they only have one belt per system.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#490 - 2013-04-30 13:08:08 UTC
Oliver G wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
If you're over the Moniyyuku/Palas side of Khanid, you may find the Ordion ice belt convenient.


Yes, I am at that side. However, plotting a course from my location to Ordion results in 9 jumps Cry

I think I must completely re-locate my stuff if I want to continue using my one-man-POS. ..... oh man that will be fun.

Stockpile. Mine now while its easy, get many months. When things go bad CCP will adjust things. But it will take them months to do it, so stockpile.

The respawn mechanic does have an odd effect. When one belt runs out you can go to another system and get its belt. Go system to system, farming the belts. Do a little circuit. By the time you get back to the first system its belt will re-spawn.

Now in Gallente space this can easily be done in several places. One area has 5 systems and 8 belts you could cycle through. Matari and Caldari space have areas that make cycling systems easy as well.

But not Amarr space. All the new ice systems are 5 or more jumps apart. Doing a loop, chaining belts will be a pain in comparison to other ices. The result could be Amarr ice will see the most price rises.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#491 - 2013-04-30 13:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey guys, I'm back from Fanfest and my day in bed starting the recovery from the Fanfest flu. I've read through the whole thread now. Thanks for all your feedback. I'm gonna start by answering a few common or important questions from the thread:

GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Amarr Lab Upgrade: 3(+5), 5(+13), 7(+21) Copying, ME, PE slots

is this correct? cause it looks like a typo to me.

It's a typo, good catch. The numbers of slots for each level is correct, the change from old values numbers are wrong. It should be 3(+1), 5(+2), 7(+3). I'll get the blog fixed asap.

Tas Nok wrote:
2. I saw the 80% ICE from HS figure in the blog and only two posts here thought to ask "HOW MUCH DOES HS PRODUCE NOW" an answer from a dev to this one question would quiet/confirm most of our speculation (as well as the markets)

Currently approximately 94% of ice is mined in highsec.
For the people asking about supply in other areas of space, there are aproximately 8 lowsec/0.0 ice belts for every highsec belt, and those belts are a bit larger. This means I am not the least bit worried about us hitting the limit of our supply anytime soon.

Tas Nok wrote:

4. Just slightly concerned over the mechanics of re-spawns, if its done poorly and one toon sits at the belt cloaked or not, will it despawn and start the timer? or will that be a new griefing mechanic?

This bug has already been fixed, staying in a belt will not keep it alive if all the asteroids are mined.

Tas Nok wrote:

5. will systems that have more than 1 ice belt get more than 1 anom?

For the most part yes. As was stated in the dev blog:
Quote:
Some systems, mostly those that currently contain two or three ice belts, will contain multiple instances of the Ice Anomalies.



  • To answer the question about wormholes, we are not currently planning to add moon minerals or ice to wormholes.
  • Ice because we do not want wormholes to be too self sufficient, the logistics of maintaining a starbase there is part of the gameplay.
    Moon minerals because moons in wormholes are far too defensible, we do not want to place moon minerals in locations that make them that difficult to attack.

  • I want to make it clear that we are not intending these changes to force people into 0.0 or lowsec from highsec. Many people simply prefer the gameplay of highsec and that's fine. However we want to make sure that for those miners and industrialists that do want to move to nullsec, they have available opportunities that support their playstyle.

  • We are also taking care to design the changes so that they do not break highsec profitability. We have projections on how these changes impact the total supply of low-end minerals and we beleive that highsec mining will continue to be a worthwhile activity for those so inclined. The ice changes also mean that although people won't be able to afk mine all day, the time that they do spend ice mining (afk or otherwise) will be dramatically more profitable, allowing them to gain the same profit from fewer hours mining and spend the excess time with whatever other activities they find interesting.

  • We are not currently planning to improve ore or ice compression, including the rates of compression or Rorquals. We encourage those ice miners that outpace their Rorqual capacity to try selling the excess on local markets, I think they may find people willing to buy their products.

  • We recognize that the Outpost slot changes do not go as far as many people would have liked, but in this case we want to ensure that we don't design ourselves into a corner later by making outposts impossible to compete with. There may be room to adjust some of the numbers upwards a bit but we probably won't go as high as everyone might hope.

  • Once again thanks for all the feedback.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #492 - 2013-04-30 13:34:59 UTC
    Hi CCP Fozzie! Tell me: How many ice blocks will a typical high sec belt have?

    Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

    Frozen fanfiction

    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #493 - 2013-04-30 13:36:46 UTC
    Malcanis wrote:
    Liz Laser wrote:


    So when I do have a free moment, I spend it in high-sec. Except time spent in high-sec keeps becoming less and less valuable and I don't even login except to change skills.


    Looks like someone moved your cheese.

    Maybe consider adapting?


    He did adapt, like many others will do. By playing SWTor.

    BTW in that MMO I am on the English PvP server over there, playing a character named... Vaerah.
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #494 - 2013-04-30 13:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Currently approximately 94% of ice is mined in highsec.
    For the people asking about supply in other areas of space, there are aproximately 8 lowsec/0.0 ice belts for every highsec belt, and those belts are a bit larger. This means I am not the least bit worried about us hitting the limit of our supply anytime soon.


    In general I love this patch but I have a question that will determine a lot of accounts termination.

    If a player logs in at any random hour, is he *reasonably sure* to scan and find an ice belt? Because many have serious RL induced time constraints.

    They just can't log in and wait for 3.5 hours because ice went all out in half hour after the 4h respawn, with a cloud of angry miners rabidly spamming scan to jump on the new spawn.

    I am certainly going to drop 6 of my accounts if I can't use them when I get my hour to play.

    Scanning? Sure, actually make it harder if anything.
    Waiting for 3.5 hours for a new spawn like an idiot? NO WAY.
    Meltmind2
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #495 - 2013-04-30 13:51:26 UTC
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    [quote=CCP Fozzie]
    Scanning? Sure, actually make it harder if anything.
    Waiting for 3.5 hours for a new spawn like an idiot? NO WAY.

    Or you could *gasp* move over to another system and/or mine rocks instead.
    Beaver Retriever
    Reality Sequence
    #496 - 2013-04-30 13:54:04 UTC
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Malcanis wrote:
    Liz Laser wrote:


    So when I do have a free moment, I spend it in high-sec. Except time spent in high-sec keeps becoming less and less valuable and I don't even login except to change skills.


    Looks like someone moved your cheese.

    Maybe consider adapting?


    He did adapt, like many others will do. By playing SWTor.

    BTW in that MMO I am on the English PvP server over there, playing a character named... Vaerah.

    What a shame, we lost a player who wasn't interested in a sandbox MMO anyway.
    Skia Aumer
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #497 - 2013-04-30 14:10:53 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey guys, I'm back from Fanfest and my day in bed starting the recovery from the Fanfest flu. I've read through the whole thread now. Thanks for all your feedback. I'm gonna start by answering a few common or important questions from the thread:

    Any word on ice types that will spawn in nullsec, and its correlation with truesec? Best truesec systems currently only have krystallos, which is useless.
    Frying Doom
    #498 - 2013-04-30 14:13:54 UTC
    Meltmind2 wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    [quote=CCP Fozzie]
    Scanning? Sure, actually make it harder if anything.
    Waiting for 3.5 hours for a new spawn like an idiot? NO WAY.

    Or you could *gasp* move over to another system and/or mine rocks instead.

    Or stop mining all together and do something that will be still profitable in hi-sec, like missions or incursions.

    Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

    Myntelle NicAtoch
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #499 - 2013-04-30 14:15:23 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • We recognize that the Outpost slot changes do not go as far as many people would have liked, but in this case we want to ensure that we don't design ourselves into a corner later by making outposts impossible to compete with. There may be room to adjust some of the numbers upwards a bit but we probably won't go as high as everyone might hope.

  • The best solutions are the ones we come up with ourselves. Let us anchor multiple stations per system, and WE will deal with production capacity in null sec, you won't need to tweak anything.
    Magic Crisp
    Amarrian Micro Devices
    #500 - 2013-04-30 14:20:02 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey guys, I'm back from Fanfest and my day in bed starting the recovery from the Fanfest flu. I've read through the whole thread now. Thanks for all your feedback. I'm gonna start by answering a few common or important questions from the thread:


    Fozzie, I think you've slipped over the rorq-icecompression issue, could you please comment that one also? With the -50% ice harvester cycletime change, it'll only take 2.14 hulks to overflow the rorq's ice compression capabilities, many thinkgs this has to be adjusted as well. Someone did the math and posted in a previous comment, please take a look.

    Also, may I ask what's the expected lifetime of an ice anomaly? The question here, will it last for an hour, then people will have to wait 4 hours, or it will last something like 12-20 hours, then people will have to wait 4 hours. That's a serious difference :)