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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

First post First post First post
Author
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#161 - 2013-04-27 00:01:59 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.

Please reconsider this change, as this basically kills mining in wormholes.

Right now, mining in WHs is only barely safe by virtue of your opponents needing to get probes out to find you, and an experienced prober can still find you with the probes only being visible on dscan for less than 30 seconds. But that still gives the victim--I mean, miner--a small chance to spot the probes and GTFO before it's too late.

With grav sites being anoms, you have only a few seconds' window to spot the attacker (if their incoming wh is within dscan range, the short period between wh cloak and true cloak), or no window at all. There is no reasonable room for pilots to "practice vigilance" outside of gimping your yield by replacing one of your strip miners with a scan probe launcher. A 50% yield loss makes it a waste of time.

The rest of the changes look good, but mining in WHs will become significantly more dangerous in Odyssey if ore sites become anomalies.


+1 to this.

Lower-class wormholes do not have the available content to support more than a handful of pilots unless you factor in mining. This is why a lot of corps that move into the C1s, C2s, and so on will mine the grav sites to make extra money and have something to do. It's not so much of an issue in C5s and C6s where the sleeper sites and capital escalations generate so much more ISK, but it's a very significant chunk of the available income in the lower-class holes.

Unfortunately with this change, that small C1 or C2 corp is going to have to have a dedicated combat/deep space scanner online and at the keyboard whenever they go out mining, or they'll lose their entire mining fleet to the first hostile roam that comes through. That's one less person to run mining lasers, which reduces the amount of ore they can bring in, and the amount of ISK they generate from it.

Unless anomaly (including grav site) spawn rate is significantly increased in lower-end wormholes, it's likely that most of the smaller corps in wormhole space will just give up, and it will become just like nullsec is now - a place where only huge corps and alliances/coalitions, that can have dozens of members online and at any given time, can really afford to play. I'm not sure that's really a good thing for w-space or for the game.

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#162 - 2013-04-27 00:03:39 UTC
herpderp Ostus wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if you put frigs (scrambling or otherwise) in forsaken hubs, you will have nerfed the last little bit of good isk making in null sec anoms. The close range battlecruisers that a lot of people use to do them will become un-usable (unless you add drones bays to all the former tier 3s that do't have them, namely the naga).

The frigless forsaken hub is the only anomaly that sub caps can use to match some empire isk making pve techniques (liek incursions and empire DED farming). This seems a big huge mistake as it will only nerf individual pilot isk making. Not fatal, but defineately a serious wound.

A better idea would be scramming cruisers for hubs with like a 35 km scram range. The problem with forsaken hubs is lack of scramming things, not lack of frigs.


spoke like a true nulsec unwilling high sec carebear


Fixed
Hardwick Johnson
Ouroboric Absolution
The Commonwealth.
#163 - 2013-04-27 00:07:40 UTC
Fozzie:

I have three main questions.

1) Has any thought been given to seeding all the common ore types to all racial highsec space?
Currently, Caldai highsec has no access to isogen, which puts a crimp on manufacturing. All other regions of New Eden contain the 5 common elements needed for basic manufacturing

2) Also, want to make sure I read the part about ice mining correctly:
All highsec systems which currently contain ice belts will spawn the ice anom's under Odyssey?

3) Phasing out of grav sites: Does this mean that grav sites that are currently scanned for with probes, will now appear in system scanner like the other anoms?
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#164 - 2013-04-27 00:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Sizeof Void wrote:
So, mining in WH becomes almost as dangerous as mining in NO high-sec? Don't see the problem... :)

In low- and null-sec, you have local to give you perfect intel about who's in the system. So, you see someone who's not blue show up in local, you head back to the station or POS.

Mining in WHs is already more dangerous than mining elsewhere due to the lack of local.

Vincent Athena wrote:
Here is what you do: Use a team of two miners. Have each double web the other. Align to your POS. When someone shows on grid the fleet commander hits warp. The double webs means you are at warp speed so you warp right away while still traveling sufficiently slow that you stay in range of the roid.

Good idea, but:
- Retrievers only have one midslot, no dual web for them. Mackinaws are just a more expensive loss when they inevitably blow up, so not a good option. Procurer would be an option, although you end up taking more than 2x as many trips back to the POS for the dubious added safety.
- FC would need very good reflexes to pull it off. I'd wager an SB could have one of them locked and pointed before the FC could finish getting through the context menu to the POS BM. Even if he's got the mouse hovering over it, take your hand off the mouse to eat a sandwich and you're risking a loss.
- Requires more than one person or more than one account, options that aren't available to everyone and won't really happen in lower level WHs where you won't have more than one or two people anyway.

Quote:
Also many times we keep scouts on the statics and have the scouts keep a probe out. The probe is to see new signatures (possible new WH's) while the scouts see if anyone comes in via the existing statics.

Also requires more than one person or more than one account, so possibly not an option in lower class WHs, but good for higher class WHs.

Neither of these points change the fact that moving gravs from sigs to anoms significantly increases the risk of mining in WHs.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#165 - 2013-04-27 00:14:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
if you put frigs (scrambling or otherwise) in forsaken hubs, you will have nerfed the last little bit of good isk making in null sec anoms. The close range battlecruisers that a lot of people use to do them will become un-usable (unless you add drones bays to all the former tier 3s that do't have them, namely the naga).

The frigless forsaken hub is the only anomaly that sub caps can use to match some empire isk making pve techniques (liek incursions and empire DED farming). This seems a big huge mistake as it will only nerf individual pilot isk making. Not fatal, but defineately a serious wound.

A better idea would be scramming cruisers for hubs with like a 35 km scram range. The problem with forsaken hubs is lack of scramming things, not lack of frigs.


You dont understand less isk per tick is good for deflation... And scram frigs mean more dead nullbears

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#166 - 2013-04-27 00:14:48 UTC
Aria Ning wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
and seriously where's the high-sec cheese and/or entertainment for someone who has 45 minutes a night in high-sec?

Have you played SWTOR yet? Big smile

I'm not saying its a better game than Eve. What I am saying is it is a far far better game than Eve for someone who has 45 minutes a night to play.


SWTOR? Seriously? I think that game was the fastest and biggest budget AAA MMO to go from P2P F2P and not to mention Subs dropped like a rock. That game is fairly decent until you complete you character(s) storyline. But honestly, I don't play themepark MMOs anymore I just can't do it anymore. I guess it's because my first MMO was Ultima Online.


But as for ore redistribution I am a little surprised myself. I figured they would add in more minerals to the high end ores but didn't expect them to be filled with Tritanium and Pyerite. It's still sad to see that Omber is still worthless, wonder why they didn't fix that one at least make it more lucrative than Veldspar.


At 45 minutes a night I don't devour SWTOR "content" like most players. I still prefer Eve as a game, but not in such small bites.

As far as the ore, they want null to be self sufficient. Heck, when I have the time to be a null-sec dweller *I* want to be self sufficient. But the realities are that high-sec needs a reason to exist until God creates more PvPers. Luckily, most players have more time than me, and incursions may be both the only remaining cheese and the entertainment in high-sec. Just doesn't work for an ultra-casual like me.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#167 - 2013-04-27 00:15:24 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Secondly, those outpost slot increases are off by about one order of magnitude. The design goal should be that if you really max out an indy station, you should have 500–700 manufacturing slots… even these new numbers aren't nearly enough to get there.


I'm not entirely clear on how the proposed changes are going to make mining in lowsec more desirable. It's still going to be less secure than high sec for a minor increase in profit and less profitable and less secure than mining in 0.0. Grav sites will be easier to find, I suppose, but I don't think that's going to be enough to sustain lowsec mining.

Also: how will the new mining anomalies interact with Faction Warfare space? At present, non-FW anoms do not spawn in FW systems. Will the new mining anoms be suppressed as well, or will they spawn as normal?
...


They won't make mining in lowsec desirable at all. From what I got watching the presentation was that the current grav sites which do spawn in FW space (but have to be found using scan probes) are going to be able to be seen using the on-board scanner instead. That means that while miners will be able to find the sites easily without a scanning ship, so will everyone else. I'd give a mining barge about a 2-3 min life span in lowsec with that system.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#168 - 2013-04-27 00:19:38 UTC
Verran Skarne wrote:
+1 to this.

Lower-class wormholes do not have the available content to support more than a handful of pilots unless you factor in mining. This is why a lot of corps that move into the C1s, C2s, and so on will mine the grav sites to make extra money and have something to do. It's not so much of an issue in C5s and C6s where the sleeper sites and capital escalations generate so much more ISK, but it's a very significant chunk of the available income in the lower-class holes.

Unfortunately with this change, that small C1 or C2 corp is going to have to have a dedicated combat/deep space scanner online and at the keyboard whenever they go out mining, or they'll lose their entire mining fleet to the first hostile roam that comes through. That's one less person to run mining lasers, which reduces the amount of ore they can bring in, and the amount of ISK they generate from it.

Unless anomaly (including grav site) spawn rate is significantly increased in lower-end wormholes, it's likely that most of the smaller corps in wormhole space will just give up, and it will become just like nullsec is now - a place where only huge corps and alliances/coalitions, that can have dozens of members online and at any given time, can really afford to play. I'm not sure that's really a good thing for w-space or for the game.

Excellent point. C1s/C3s can't reasonably support more than one or two people (C2s are less of an issue since they have the WH static to farm).
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#169 - 2013-04-27 00:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Decarthado Aurgnet
I respect that CCP is finally taking a rebalance of industry more seriously and actually doing something to enhance a system which is, by many accounts, terribly broken and imbalanced. In the spirit of full disclosure: I'm a highsec industrialist.

I'd go into nullsec in a heartbeat and mine the ever loving hell out of the minerals down there except it's completely unsafe for an industrialist to get resources in space which is inherently insecure. This is why people used the drone regions to get the refinable drone materials. They were, at the very least, in PvE ships and had half a chance at defending themselves against PvP attackers.

The only true solution to making industry actually worth doing in nullsec is to make it so that non-combatants have a chance at surving down there. This would, of course, dramatically change the nature of nullsec in the most undesirable of ways for the Church of the Almighty Pew ... but it would instantly shift industry from highsec to nullsec since nullsec is the only place where you can get the best minerals in good abundance (w-space notwithstanding). I mean ... ffs ... you can already find Veldspar rocks down there which don't run out after some guy solo mines that same rock for what would seem like an eternity to any highsec miner.

So, solution time. I see two possibilities.

First, have a whole bunch of highsec pockets all over the place down there but leave the resources alone. That would be kind of ... completely counterintuitive and probably would limit the number of null empires even more than the current sov system does.

Second, NPC cops which respond to standings of whoever holds sovereignty over a system in the same way highsec cops respond to standings of players flying through their space. The NPC cops would need some serious balancing and tweaking, but the idea would make borders relatively secure and would keep goofball small gangs from just wandering through hostile territory unless they get a couple other goofball gangs to go with them so they can fend off the cops as they go. Also, if you're trying to take sovereignty over a system and always have a set number of cops firing on your fleet (and they're focusing fire on your logi's, etc), then one could justify reducing the insane amount of time it takes to grind sov since the difficulty has been shifted away from raw time and toward surviving the cheap &/or elite NPC defense fleets which the sov holder has bought and paid for with an amount of isk as appropriate to the strength of the cops they want. Defender pays for better cops, and you have a harder time taking their space. Because, let's face it, camping a gate three hours a day as a requirement for being part of nullsec is garbage and we all know it.

EDIT - It would also create a new isk sink, and a pretty good one.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#170 - 2013-04-27 00:47:37 UTC
Regarding Outpost upgrades, let me say one word: Super Capitals. Almost no one uses CSMAs because the risk of them being inaccessible and loosing your 25+ billions ISK ship without at least a fighting chance is completely unappealing. What I propose is why not get rid of the CSMA altogether and replace it with a very expensive Outpost upgrade that allows for at least Super Carriers, to be docked? I'm pretty sure this would top most Super Cap pilot's wish list of Outpost upgrades.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2013-04-27 00:53:13 UTC
removing grav sites in hi-sec removes the incentive for miners to expend their skills into Exploration. Also removes the compromise that gankers need either a scan ship in their gang or fitted probe launcher. (and necessary skills)

I would note that grav sites are highly competed for in hi-sec as they are. These are easily located following downtime. Will there be a corresponding change here? A common practice for many hi-sec mining crews is to remove the high end ores and leave remaining roids. The site does not de-spawn to generate anew elsewhere. Would it not be possible to have the site timeout when there no activity within after an hour or so?

And since it will be asked anyway. removing grav sites, lead the option for skill re-allocation from astrometic investment?
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#172 - 2013-04-27 01:01:27 UTC
Seriously great work guys, these are AMAZING changes that everyone has been waiting for and I cannot wait to see them implemented.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-04-27 01:05:01 UTC
Quote:
As far as the ore, they want null to be self sufficient. Heck, when I have the time to be a null-sec dweller *I* want to be self sufficient. But the realities are that high-sec needs a reason to exist until God creates more PvPers. Luckily, most players have more time than me, and incursions may be both the only remaining cheese and the entertainment in high-sec. Just doesn't work for an ultra-casual like me.


nobody ever wanted nullsec to be self sufficient, we wanted nullsec to be a great place to start an industrial venture

with the current mechanics, only production from T2 BPOs and Production of (Super)Capitals were viable, with the changes, almost everything makes sense to produce in 00

JFs will no longer travel empty on their way to Jita, thats a great change

Titan Chain
Doomheim
#174 - 2013-04-27 01:08:29 UTC
It seems your taking the long way around.

You have the power to simply shutdown HS, so rather than just transfer all the wealth to Null, it would be easier to just shut it down leaving Null and its denizens free reign. Has the added benefit, that you wouldnt have to spend time concocting fantasies such as that justification you used..

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-04-27 01:08:44 UTC
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
Words.



lolnope, thats one of the worst ideas ever

a nullsec full of miners is not a nullsec full of sheep to prey on, its a nullsec full of sheep, well aware of wolves out there and well connected with each other


Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#176 - 2013-04-27 01:13:18 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
if you put frigs (scrambling or otherwise) in forsaken hubs, you will have nerfed the last little bit of good isk making in null sec anoms. The close range battlecruisers that a lot of people use to do them will become un-usable (unless you add drones bays to all the former tier 3s that do't have them, namely the naga).

The frigless forsaken hub is the only anomaly that sub caps can use to match some empire isk making pve techniques (liek incursions and empire DED farming). This seems a big huge mistake as it will only nerf individual pilot isk making. Not fatal, but defineately a serious wound.

A better idea would be scramming cruisers for hubs with like a 35 km scram range. The problem with forsaken hubs is lack of scramming things, not lack of frigs.


You dont understand less isk per tick is good for deflation... And scram frigs mean more dead nullbears


Sure, those are upsides for the game.....but they won't happen because high sec has much safer isk making. Forsaken hubs are litterally on of the few really good null pve isk makers, it they change, (regardless of what happenes to sanctums and havens), fewer people will do them. That = less people to kill in null.

The effect will be like the original anomalie nerf (when null sec isk makers FLOODED FW, wormholes and high sec incursions) ie less people taking the risk. People said the same thing back then "yay it will be great for inflation). Wrong, the isk makers will just shift to places they can't be as easily killed.

Null sec needs a grunt level isk making buff, not a nerf.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2013-04-27 01:18:38 UTC
Quote:
Null sec needs a grunt level isk making buff, not a nerf.


i heard they were changing hacking sites in a rather interesting way

justsayin
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#178 - 2013-04-27 01:20:11 UTC
More R64 and less demand on technetium.

+1 on less demand on technetium.

-1 on more R64.

We will head back to 2008 when the R64's created a monopoly for big alliances and even MORE stagnation.

Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#179 - 2013-04-27 01:28:30 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
Words.



lolnope, thats one of the worst ideas ever

a nullsec full of miners is not a nullsec full of sheep to prey on, its a nullsec full of sheep, well aware of wolves out there and well connected with each other




Reread what I wrote. I didn't say it should make the whole place secure - just less insecure. If you want industry to be worth a damn, then you need defenseless ships in space to get the things to make it happen.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2013-04-27 01:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Quote:
Reread what I wrote. I didn't say it should make the whole place secure - just less insecure. If you want industry to be worth a damn, then you need defenseless ships in space to get the things to make it happen.


barges are not defenseless

there are intel channels

there are bubbles at the gate

there are cyno jammers

there is instant intel from local chat

there are drag bubbles set up from all gates

there are home defence fleets of cheap and easy to skill T1 cruisers

there are carefully planed traps

there is so much more you can do to defend yourself