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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Desiderya
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#561 - 2011-11-01 17:01:31 UTC
Looks like a good start.

- Things to think about: Railguns still don't seem to fit in a suitable and used ingame strategy.
- T1 hybrid charges might need a look at, too.

- while I agree that especially armor blaster boats (i.e: Gallente) need a buff I think it's a bit weird that they get a speed boost while caldari hybrid hulls supposedly have that covered with the optimal range bonus. Last time I've checked I still seem to see more gallente blaster boats around than caldari ones.
What about changing the optimal range bonus to optimal range+falloff? Wouldn't change much for railguns since they have a tiny falloff to start with, but might actually be a real benefit with blaster turrets. All V it's usually a 50% bonus (eagle and harpy aside), which roughly increases blaster range by ~25%. Add in the popular low-range high-damage ammo types and you'll end up with an even smaller advantage, way smaller than the 25% damage from gallente hulls.
I'd actually prefer such a change over the 5% better agility.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#562 - 2011-11-01 17:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
What we need for blaster:
-OFC the capacitor, the 30% less capacitor use seem good.
-A bit more tracking, i don't think 20% is needed, but at least a 10%.
-OFC a agility/speed boost, i think the hyperion need a bit more than the actual boost, but for other it seem good for me.
-But blaster need a failoff boost to :.Don't be usless in fleet fight.Don't have to wait to be in the perfect optimal (very short) to start deal damage, deal at least a bit damage to med range boat. have an utility to the failoff bonus on the astarte and the deimos, and if no failoff bonus, i think ppl will be more happy whith a web efficiency bonus on these ship.
-OR a damage boost. Not a lot, 10/15%, but if blaster boat have to fight only under 5km, they have to be very efficient, more than they are actually.

the idea to have 2 ammo per range whith 80%kin 20%therm and 80%therm 20%kin for exemple was a great idea (for me).
And OFC, some ships have to be looked and modified (deimos, hyperion, ect)
Luscius Uta
#563 - 2011-11-01 17:09:13 UTC
What about atrocious cap usage of large hybrids? It's a real pain when you have to warp out during a level 4 mission in a ship like Rokh just because "capacitor is empty", even when passively tanked. I would reduce the cap usage of large blasters for 25% and 50% for large railguns.

Also I would rather see an increase in optimal, falloff or damage (not in rate of fire as that will again drain the cap quicker) or blasters, rather than increase in tracking speed. Web can help you track better, and there are PvP blasters boats of various sizes (Daredevil, Vigilant, Vindicator) with web bonus, but having about half the range of autocannons of the same size for about 20% more damage (these numbers came out of my head and don't have to be perfectly accurate) still makes those three ships in their respective categories inferior to Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel. It's the blasters that need more damage and rails that need more tracking, not the other way around.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
#564 - 2011-11-01 17:10:53 UTC
My 2 cents:

I think the key to saving Gallente is giving them stasis webbing as their secondary ewar and the sneaky bonus to that new tier 3 battlecruiser is the perfect testing ground.

It suits the style more so than Minmatar and in combination with the given increases in this devblog it solves the Gallente problem very neatly.
Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#565 - 2011-11-01 17:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
Sizeof Void wrote:
[quote=Kumq uat]
And a 30% reduction in cap means that a Gallente blaster boat doesn't need a cap booster to remain cap stable, even with a full rack of blasters and magstabs.


Wrong. You still have to fit and use a MWD, you still have 0 DPS if neutra, some blasterboat have to active tank (yes i want a 5% all resist bonus instead armor rep amountLol), you always have a full rack of blaster and magstabs on a blasterboat, so you still have to fit a cap booster, maybe not on mega/deimos/thorax, but on other, yes.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#566 - 2011-11-01 17:12:25 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:

Oh yes. I used to think that way too, three years ago back when my main was still flying exclusively gallente... Oh and please tell me how do you plan on "getting out" when youre scrammed and being kited from 20km-ish.

Well, a scram is only good for 9-14km (assuming that you are not officer fit), which is still within falloff for medium blasters. Not as much pew, but perhaps enough when combined with drones. An opponent might fit a disrupter instead of a scram - but, given that you also might have fit a MWD instead of a second web, it becomes one of those rock-paper-scissors game. And whoever guesses right tends to win.

Alternatively, ECM drones. A flight of light ECM drones has a fair chance of breaking the targeting lock before the ACs can break your tank, at kiting range.

Otherwise, assuming you are carrying T2 medium drones for damage and no ECM drones, bite the bullet and go down fighting!
Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#567 - 2011-11-01 17:16:09 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
[quote=Nyla Skin]
Alternatively, ECM drones. A flight of light ECM drones has a fair chance of breaking the targeting lock before the ACs can break your tank, at kiting range.
!


A flight to ECM drone has a fair chance of breaking the targeting before the blaster can break your tank, at optimal range, so i call that a draw.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#568 - 2011-11-01 17:18:43 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

I am however a little concerned with a across-the-board buff to fitting that we
might see all hybrid ships neglecting smaller tier hybrids if those have no clear
advantage.

The advantage of staying with a lower grade gun, with the reduced CPU/PG reqs, means that you can fit a larger tank, or free up a low slot or rig slot for other use, while still dealing the same DPS as you are now. It does not make the hybrids the "I Win" gun, but it does allow for more options in fitting.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#569 - 2011-11-01 17:22:21 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
\Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

A scram + 2 webs = 3 mid slots, not 5.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#570 - 2011-11-01 17:23:24 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:

Youre being trolled, dude.

That's ok, I'm on vacation this week.... :)
kxdan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2011-11-01 17:23:56 UTC
Blasters range should not be tampered with , but IMO when someone in a blaster ship gets in optimal they should melt face , and absolutely shred you . because that blaster boat has just committed everything for an almost guaranteed one way trip but when you've got other ships then can do that kind of damage at 20+ km and the blaster boat is only giving out marginally more dps then that ship at 8km which is within web and scram range , which means if you don't take the other guy down , your going down . Blasters damage needs to be buffed ALOT . So much to compensate for the risk the pilot has to take with his ship to get in that kind of range , knowing full well he probably wont come out alive
Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#572 - 2011-11-01 17:24:16 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
\Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

A scram + 2 webs = 3 mid slots, not 5.


Let's flight blaster boat whitout cap booster, MWD, sensor boost or ECCM...
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#573 - 2011-11-01 17:58:43 UTC
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
No, you are tackled and ******. Minmatar boat got ECM drone too, so don't come speak about drone here.

Why not? ECM drones are commonly used to break a lock when you want to GTFO, and a valid strategy for either Gallente or Minmatar ships.

Jeffrey Powel wrote:
The main issue is : actually, NO, or maybe a BIT more DPS for a LOT LESS range, in medium size gun, a blaster do more DPS than an AC UNDER 4000m ONLY!.

Since we're talking about fighting within blaster range, then you make my point - blasters do more damage than ACs. I'm not arguing that blasters have better range than ACs, that's not the point.

Jeffrey Powel wrote:
You forget : blaster need capacitor, where AC not

A 30% reduction in cap makes a blaster boat cap stable, even with a full rack of neutrons. But, I do like that you can choose damage types with projectile ammo.

Jeffrey Powel wrote:
a bit more yes, but more signature, bad slot balance, T2 gallente boat got a BIG explosive hole, where minmatar got perfect shield resist, a loljoke tank bonus, ect, ect.

True, for the T2 ships. But, not for the T1 ships. See my other post.

Jeffrey Powel wrote:
lol, no, speed is not the only advantage minmatar got. And i want a blasterboat whith 7 med slot too pliz.

Add : a blaster boat have to fight ALWAYS at web/scramble range, so can't run after falcon, or logistics, ect, what a minmatar can do. So no, actually, having 10% more "EFT" DPS and 15% more EHP don't compensante.

You are really all over the place with this Falcon, logi stuff, and etc., arent' you? I already responded to your previous post on these topics.

And, if you want a blaster boat with 7 mid slots, try your Falcon. In addition to the 7 mid slots, it actually has a damage bonus to medium hybrids (although I don't know why). Only three (3) turrent hardpoints, but I guess you can't have everything.
Gynoceros
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#574 - 2011-11-01 17:59:08 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
Gynoceros wrote:
These changes are a nice start, but, as others have already said, I don't think you can truly fix blasters as long as armor tanking has such a huge impact on speed and agility.

BTW, while you are looking at T2 ammo, Null needs a buff. Null only gives a 25% boost to effective (optimal + falloff) range while the 50% bonuses to optimal and falloff for Scorch and Barrage, respectively, represent ~40% boost to total optimal + falloff. For example:

Heavy Pulse Laser II (Base): 15km + 5km
Heavy Pulse Laser II (Scorch): 22.5km + 5km
Total boost to optimal + falloff: 37.5%

425mm AutoCannon II (Base): 3km + 12km
425mm AutoCannon II (Barrage): 3km + 18km
Total boost to optimal + falloff: 40%

Null either needs a boost to its range bonuses, or some other bonus to bring it in line with Scorch and Barrage.


The comparison is interesting, but not good. Scorch Pulses will always outrange others. That's the way it is. Deal with it. What Null possibly does need, however, is a damage buff.


It's not a question of absolute range. Of course Scorch Pulses are always going to outrange others, especially blaster ships. This is not about wanting to push blasters into Pulse/AutoCannon ranges. The simple fact of the matter is that Null's percentage bonus to range is much smaller than both Scorch and Barrage. Null should be boosted so that its bonuses are in line with the other T2 long range ammo.
Angeliena
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#575 - 2011-11-01 18:06:53 UTC
Astor Daeoli wrote:
CCP Tallest, that a start.

Have you tested a boost to webs? Why not try a 25% base boost to webs? That would bring t2 webs to 75% seepd still a long way off their original 90% base, but this plus the tracking boost might be enough. No boost to webs leaves blasters broken.

edit.. how about reducing scram range to 6k base for t2 scram?

edit.. how about boosting sensor damps by 25%?


The issues with blasters, as they stand, and even post hybrid boost is that Gallente blaster ships still need help getting close enough, fast enough to their target.

Tallest still needs to do some tweaking to web strength and or web range versus scram range. In the past Gallente ships also used sensor demps to help draw in faster, more agile and longer range minmatar (and other enemy) ships. Damps were nerfed to be useless a long time ago.

It would be an interesting thing to make blaster's into a short range version of arty, eg very low range as they already are but alpha like arty. That might make for fun, provided webs are changed.
Tiger's Spirit
Perkone
Caldari State
#576 - 2011-11-01 18:12:37 UTC
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
[quote=Nyla Skin]
Alternatively, ECM drones. A flight of light ECM drones has a fair chance of breaking the targeting lock before the ACs can break your tank, at kiting range.
!


A flight to ECM drone has a fair chance of breaking the targeting before the blaster can break your tank, at optimal range, so i call that a draw.


No i couldn't call a draw, because faster ships can move out from distance when ECM drones jamming the blaster ships and he cant use scram or his webifier. 20 seconds with 400-500m/s different speed helping to moving out from blaster critical damage range.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#577 - 2011-11-01 18:12:39 UTC
ConXtionS wrote:

I guess I have never had that opportunity... It seems that the enemy moves and that jumping right on them is difficult because there is no LEAD in the jump system to account for thier movement. So lets suppose you are in warp for 30 seconds, by the time you get there, you are WELL out of range cuz the mim ship was scooting right alone while you tried to JUMP on top of him.

Now, I will agree, if you find a pilot that is NOT MOVING, and doesnt fire his guns at you, and his tank doesnt turn on, Gallente ships will POUND HIM every time.. Other than that, blasters are difficult at best to fly.

Yep, on all points.

Jumping in *at any range* is difficult if the target is moving. But this isn't a problem just for blaster boats. If you can't jump within scram/disrupter range in your Minmatar kiting boat, your target may just jump out before you can get within scram range, esp. if he's cruising around on MWD.

Blaster boats are difficult to fly - no argument. But, they are not impossible to fly.

And exploiting other pilots' mistakes - like not moving, or capping out because he forgot to shutoff his MWD, or not firing back because he forgot to load ammo, or going AFK - is also part of the game.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#578 - 2011-11-01 18:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Sizeof Void wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
\Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

A scram + 2 webs = 3 mid slots, not 5.


I'll feed you...


MWD and cap booster. If you think you don't need them you don't PvP much outside of Jita 4-4.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

BinaryData
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2011-11-01 18:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: BinaryData
Alright, some positives and negatives about your post. As a Gallente pilot, I'm thrilled to see my race getting some attention for a change.


Somethings you failed to realize is;

1. Damage type. Give us a variety of damage to deal

Incendiary Ammo (Explosive), Electromagnetic Charge (EM), Antimatter can stay but be improved, Thermal can stay but be reworked.

The race itself isn't bad, it's just you guys evolved the other races weaponry to be a more advanced.


It's like comparing EVE's current technological state to the Jovian state. Yes, I did read the entire EVE history. Rails need to be on par with Artillery, blasters need to be on par with Auto Cannons. Until they are, no ones going to use them for PvP.


Side Note: Fix the drones too!

Edit: Even Amarr deals only 2 types. C'mon CCP, wtf?
David Xavier
The Capsuleers of Unconscious Thought
#580 - 2011-11-01 18:23:01 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
ConXtionS wrote:

I guess I have never had that opportunity... It seems that the enemy moves and that jumping right on them is difficult because there is no LEAD in the jump system to account for thier movement. So lets suppose you are in warp for 30 seconds, by the time you get there, you are WELL out of range cuz the mim ship was scooting right alone while you tried to JUMP on top of him.

Now, I will agree, if you find a pilot that is NOT MOVING, and doesnt fire his guns at you, and his tank doesnt turn on, Gallente ships will POUND HIM every time.. Other than that, blasters are difficult at best to fly.

Yep, on all points.

Jumping in *at any range* is difficult if the target is moving. But this isn't a problem just for blaster boats. If you can't jump within scram/disrupter range in your Minmatar kiting boat, your target may just jump out before you can get within scram range, esp. if he's cruising around on MWD.

Blaster boats are difficult to fly - no argument. But, they are not impossible to fly.

And exploiting other pilots' mistakes - like not moving, or capping out because he forgot to shutoff his MWD, or not firing back because he forgot to load ammo, or going AFK - is also part of the game.


You see the root of the problem is right there, pilots of other ships only worry about that their prey may run away. In a blaster boat you worry about not being able to do anything. Do not pretend it is fine.

Also what if your target does not make the mistakes? Then you are dead. Hell they can even exploit your reliance.

I don't suffer from insanity.. I enjoy it !