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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Author
Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#601 - 2011-11-01 19:44:47 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

Cap booster - you really don't need it, esp. with a 30% reduction in cap use. Even today, with maxed fitting skills (which I do have and recommend to everyone), the Gallente T1 gunboats are actually cap stable, with a full rack of guns. Adding a MWD takes it down a notch, but since you do not run the MWD continuously, and rarely while you are actually firing blasters, it isn't an issue.


Yeah, passive tanked brutix, astarte, hyperion FTW ! You NEED a cap booster on these ship, that all.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#602 - 2011-11-01 19:47:03 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
As for how often you find a non-moving, non-consensual target... as with many things in Eve, it happens surprisingly more often than you might think. Don't believe me? Well, I cannot do much about that and not much point in arguing about it.



This is pretty much the problem with your argumentation.

You post perfect examples of perfect fights for every single possibility, yet you talk about high sec and also choose to not take in consideration our opinions just by throwing the rabble "you don't fly them".

Well first most have done and still do but if they choose another path it's just because we figured since a long time all the contrary of what you just argue.

HIGH SEC pvp has nothing in common with low sec or null sec pvp where in some cases like wd's and in hands of experienced pilots with the perfect fleet not being bothered by 20 to 50 red roamers have their niche. But in another race like minmatar/amarr/caldari you can do just has good or even better.
I really hope someday you try to fly minmatar ships of all kinds to figure out by yourself how screwed blaster and rail ships are stuck in a very small niche, so tiny it doesn't ever happen in other places than dreams or in forum posts.

Now you're happy with? -fairwell but those who don't expose their opinions based on real facts and problems they encounter each time they fly their ships in other places and situations than perfect ones because those happen 99% the time they play.

This is why some of us, read your posts but don't believe a word of them and might think either you're just trolling or that you live in a perfect world where everything suits you perfectly.

This being said, the majority still thinks AC's/ARTY stuff will still be overpowered, now they get a huge buff to their dmg and tracking.
So gallente moves one step forward and minmatar/amarr get 2, very nice sense of balancing stuff.

Without the lasers and projectiles buff I'd say "hummm maybe, first step but maybe", after looking closer to those ammo buffs I just think it's a waste of time and humain ressources to balance stuff this way.

Of course if those are the ones comming on TQ.
Jeffrey Powel
The flying pickles
#603 - 2011-11-01 19:47:12 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

MWD.... since the scram buff, it has become a tougher call to auto fit the MWD. In many cases, an AB is a better choice, even for a blaster boat that needs to close range. A scrammed MWD does notthing, after all - whereas an AB can still get you into range, if your opponent is fitting a MWD, and you'v'e got him scrammed, too.


If, if, if.... if my ibis could fit a DD, ect....
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#604 - 2011-11-01 19:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
wtf .....ganked FTL again....fracking forum !!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#605 - 2011-11-01 19:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
edit: double post.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Lekgoa
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#606 - 2011-11-01 19:52:26 UTC
Enyo with neutrons + NULL: 212 gun dps @ 4.2+3.9
Wolf with 200's + HAIL: 286 gun dps @ 0.8+9

It's the same story across all gun sizes. With these changes, Minmatar's close-range high-dps ammo outranges Gallente's long-range low-dps ammo. Matari ships are still significantly faster than their Gallente counterparts (Wolf 987 m/s, Enyo around 900 m/s post-patch). Having flown exclusively Gallente since I started this game 18 months ago, I'm comfortable saying that this is a HUGE problem. The tracking and fitting buffs are great, but they don't address the key issue of range.

My suggestion: you're buffing T2 ammo anyway. BUFF NULL AND VOID. Null should outrange Hail by a decent margin if you want any sort of balance. Give it +50% optimal and falloff. That won't be op simply because Null's damage is pretty mediocre. Void is point-blank-range ammo, so it should have a bit more dps (10%) and better tracking (10-15% penalty rather than 25%). The effect: blaster boats dominate at close range and aren't completely impotent at mid ranges. This still wouldn't be an insta-win button because the hulls are still pretty slow, allowing other ships to pull out of Void range.

I honestly think hybrids, Gallente hulls, and armor tanking in general could all use a serious overhaul. Barring that, ammo changes seem like the simplest and most effective solution. And gimme my T2 drone mods!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#607 - 2011-11-01 19:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Sizeof Void wrote:
Actually, I've never PvP'ed in Jita 4-4. Is it fun?


hell if I know Ugh

Quote:
Cap booster - you really don't need it, esp. with a 30% reduction in cap use. Even today, with maxed fitting skills (which I do have and recommend to everyone), the Gallente T1 gunboats are actually cap stable, with a full rack of guns. Adding a MWD takes it down a notch, but since you do not run the MWD continuously, and rarely while you are actually firing blasters, it isn't an issue.

MWD.... since the scram buff, it has become a tougher call to auto fit the MWD. In many cases, an AB is a better choice, even for a blaster boat that needs to close range. A scrammed MWD does notthing, after all - whereas an AB can still get you into range, if your opponent is fitting a MWD, and you'v'e got him scrammed, too.


What in the hell are you talking about?

Scrams have a 10km limit. Engagements happen between 15-30km. Outside of FRIGATES you pulse the MWD to get into range. You pulse maybe 2-3 cycles if needed which takes away cap. you fire which takes away cap. you're running a scram/2x webs which takes up even more cap.

The cap reduction lets you shoot for 60 seconds opposed to 45.

If you're neuted you're dead. Neut a projectile ship and they still have full DPS on you.


Quote:
As for the case where you don't need either a MWD or an AB.... speed is relative. If you can land within scram/web range, your MWD and your opponent's MWD would be useless (worse than useless, since they take up a mid-slot and a good chunk of PG), so why fit it at all? Say, now that you've got two webs fitted, so your opponent's speed is going to drop rather dramatically - enough that you'll probably be able to close range at your normal speed (or even halved speed, if he hits you with single web) - except for the Dram, which needs a speed nerf. Certainly, your opponent will not be going anywhere fast, and it will be difficult for him to reach kiting range.



ok, IF.. and IFFFFFF you land in scram/web distance.. IF by that slim...slim chance... I'm talking slimmer than going on candy fscking mountian... then you manage to dual web and scram them, it becomes a DPS battle and you hold the edge. Congrats, you killed an AFK ratter. Oh, wait he's not AFK and he switches to Hail and rapes your face while neuting you

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#608 - 2011-11-01 20:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
For all those proposing that we drastically increase Gallente hulls to perform around the performance range of Minmatar hulls, just remember what you will be doing to the other two races hulls in the process. There are more ships in the game than just the Brutix and Hurricane (or Enyo and Wolf for that matter), and the big picture must be thought of.

Are Minmatar guns overpowered? Maybe. They are very useful to say the least, and very deadly across a wide engagement spectrum. Are Amarr guns overpowered? Most pilots would say no, and especially those who don't have access to Scorch and/or Aurora ammunition. They work though and get the job done. Railguns (especially with the changes) will do the job they are supposed to quite nicely, and Missiles already do their job. That leaves blasters.

If you give blasters a range envelope that rivals non-T2 Amarr weaponry and/or Autocannons, you will be destroying Amarr weapons in the process. Projectiles will still be useful, but only because they have damage type diversity and take no power to operate. If you buff blaster ships speed and blaster effectiveness, you will create a situation where the only time you would EVER want to fly Amarr would be in heavily armor tanked situations supported by Logistics (trading one broken feature for another). From where I sit, assuming you want this change to use existing game mechanics and be implemented in the next month, there really are only two options available:

1) Go with this incremental upgrade that nudges Blasters towards a more usable platform, still keeping them inferior in the vast majority of situations but pushing them less out of the "Why in the hell would I ever fly blasters" to "Blasters are decent, and good enough especially against weakly tanked ships" category. Basically, what you proposed in this dev blog.

*or*

2) Go with a niche approach where you make Blasters truly excel at something. Give them the nuclear option, the "You get within my targeting envelope and YOU... WILL.... DIE!" Keep Gallente ships where they are at performance wise, or give them small nuanced speed boost (and maybe EHP boost as well!), but also give them the tracking to operate at 500m from target while traversing and give them a power boost that when they can get position, they can do their job. See comments around pages 18-22 for more information!!!

(2) seems the best approach to me, and (1) seems like it would be better than just simply making Gallente a new FOTM. More diversity in ship types and weapon systems will continue to make EVE a combat rich environment, and anything that pushes Blasters to be "just another short range weapon system" with little difference to the alternatives would be borderline criminal.

Vincent Gaines wrote:
What in the hell are you talking about?

Scrams have a 10km limit. Engagements happen between 15-30km. Outside of FRIGATES you pulse the MWD to get into range. You pulse maybe 2-3 cycles if needed which takes away cap. you fire which takes away cap. you're running a scram/2x webs which takes up even more cap.

Engagements happen at 15-30km because that is where the vast majority of pilots have their optimals at today. No ship type excels at under 10km (save frigates or a few close range setups) so no real need to fight closer exists (especially with mid-range ships supported by Huginn's/Lachesis's). This is why I've been trying to say that a perfect niche opportunity exists... Give Gallente the crown for under 10km engagement ranges, and watch what will happen in situations where experienced pilots create fleets to not only fly but fight in this engagement envelope. It would open the door for blasters to use truly new combat tactics than the mid-range standoff tactics that Amarr/Minmatar close range setups excel at today.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#609 - 2011-11-01 20:35:14 UTC
I don't think anyone is asking for a speed boost, I'm in the group looking for just a teeny web boost and a nice nudge on optimal. Outside of 12-15km you have trouble but once in that web and under those blasters better hit that DCU.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2011-11-01 20:37:52 UTC
Get rid of the agility buff, It should have been nerfed and the speed increase should be a damn site more than 10m/s. Galle ships should not be able to run rings round their prey, that's the minmitar thing, they should however be able to go really fast in a straight line. If blasters are to remain with such short weapons range then in that range there should be a massive amount of DPS, not 10% more, it should be %30-%50 more.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#611 - 2011-11-01 20:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I don't think anyone is asking for a speed boost, I'm in the group looking for just a teeny web boost and a nice nudge on optimal. Outside of 12-15km you have trouble but once in that web and under those blasters better hit that DCU.

Lets assume blasters can put over 90% of their DPS on target at 15km with a cruiser hull. Give me one reason to fly Amarr that isn't "they have lots of low slots" or "I like lazorz".
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#612 - 2011-11-01 20:44:34 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I don't think anyone is asking for a speed boost, I'm in the group looking for just a teeny web boost and a nice nudge on optimal. Outside of 12-15km you have trouble but once in that web and under those blasters better hit that DCU.

Lets assume blasters can put over 90% of their DPS on target at 15km with a cruiser hull. Give me one reason to fly Amarr that isn't "they have lots of low slots" or "I like lazorz".


Because I can stil burn your face to the ground with my scorh pulse at 45km (med size) with not much fitting effort, not counting on implants and boosters/fleet boost.

This is why.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#613 - 2011-11-01 20:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Tanya Powers wrote:
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I don't think anyone is asking for a speed boost, I'm in the group looking for just a teeny web boost and a nice nudge on optimal. Outside of 12-15km you have trouble but once in that web and under those blasters better hit that DCU.

Lets assume blasters can put over 90% of their DPS on target at 15km with a cruiser hull. Give me one reason to fly Amarr that isn't "they have lots of low slots" or "I like lazorz".


Because I can stil burn your face to the ground with my scorh pulse at 45km with not much fitting effort, not counting on implants and boosters/fleet boost.

This is why.

So Amarr would only be workable when you get T2 ammunition? Yep, matches my argument above... Lol

And even then, there would be little point to carry some Imperial Navy Multifrequency with you anymore because you're going to be raped by Hybrid AND Projectiles unless you can somehow maintain range against two races of ships that are faster than you and almost always far more cap-stable...

And with only T1 ammo, there would be little point to even sit in an Amarr ship.

The nuclear option IS the best option, because the balance of power that exists today between other weapon systems does not need to change to accomodate a new and improved blaster weapon system.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2011-11-01 20:55:51 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
[quote=Digital Gaidin]

So Amarr are only workable when you get T2 ammunition? Yep, matches my argument above Lol

And even then, there would be little point to carry some Imperial Navy Multifrequency with you anymore because you're going to be raped by Hybrid AND Projectiles unless you can somehow maintain range against two races of ships that are faster than you and almost always far more cap-stable...

And with only T1 ammo, there would be little point to even sit in an Amarr ship.

The nuclear option IS the best option, because the balance of power that exists today between other weapon systems does not need to change to accomodate a new and improved blaster weapon system.


Well, Amarr ships could still be buffed to have very good damage over all ranges and a great tank.
The point is, we all know that if they adapt hybrids and Gallente ships, they will have to adapt the other races and ships as a second step.
I just hope that CCP will not need 3 years for this second step and in the meantime 3/4 of the players are unsatisfied.

I'm afraid that CCP could go the other way, they will adapt hybrids a little bit, give it more tracking and a bit more damage and leave it so for a few years making 1/4 of the players unsatisfied.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#615 - 2011-11-01 21:00:22 UTC
Amarr are a bit weird atm. They are generally pretty nicely balanced, even maybe on the lower end of the scale -- except Scorch, which is stupidly powerful. And of course everyone uses that, so it's what we need to compare against. Nerf Scorch, then you can start comparing to lasers in other configurations. Not before.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#616 - 2011-11-01 21:00:38 UTC
Thread's moving pretty fast (and forum software is crappy)... don't *think* this is in here yet thogh.

What about making rails the "sniping" weapon less in the OMG range sense, and more in the precision sense? Arty/rails/lasers all have basically the same max range these days with mechanics getting in the way of things, so rails stay in the middle DPS-wise, but get an improved sig resolution compared to arties (lol @ space cannon) and lasers (some crappy explanation about focusing the beams or whatever). Then rail platforms become pretty reliable damage even against ships a class down (especially using the smaller rails... dual guns in that case should possibly have the same stats as what they claim to be, they just somehow split the larger charge). That ends up being their "niche," which yes, makes life even harder on the smaller ships, but both hybrid races already have ways to be really unpleasant for smaller craft to be around (gallente can carry drones for all occasions, and assuming they actually get *fielded* caldari missile hulls can be a complete nightmare (if only in theory) for the next size down, especially cruiser-level with ASMs and such) so the main difference would just be that its guns and not missiles.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#617 - 2011-11-01 21:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Thelron wrote:
Thread's moving pretty fast (and forum software is crappy)... don't *think* this is in here yet thogh.

What about making rails the "sniping" weapon less in the OMG range sense, and more in the precision sense? Arty/rails/lasers all have basically the same max range these days with mechanics getting in the way of things, so rails stay in the middle DPS-wise, but get an improved sig resolution compared to arties (lol @ space cannon) and lasers (some crappy explanation about focusing the beams or whatever). Then rail platforms become pretty reliable damage even against ships a class down (especially using the smaller rails... dual guns in that case should possibly have the same stats as what they claim to be, they just somehow split the larger charge). That ends up being their "niche," which yes, makes life even harder on the smaller ships, but both hybrid races already have ways to be really unpleasant for smaller craft to be around (gallente can carry drones for all occasions, and assuming they actually get *fielded* caldari missile hulls can be a complete nightmare (if only in theory) for the next size down, especially cruiser-level with ASMs and such) so the main difference would just be that its guns and not missiles.

I hit Dramiels just fine at 80km with my Artillery on a Hurricane.

I'm not sure how you would need more precision than that.

Alex Harumichi wrote:
Amarr are a bit weird atm. They are generally pretty nicely balanced, even maybe on the lower end of the scale -- except Scorch, which is stupidly powerful. And of course everyone uses that, so it's what we need to compare against. Nerf Scorch, then you can start comparing to lasers in other configurations. Not before.

Scorch are the one saving grace of Pulses right now... the one thing that IS working for Amarr short range weaponry that gives it a real reason to be used on the battlefield over projectiles. Even then, only a few Amarr ships can truly take advantage of the range bonuses of Pulses due to their optimal bonuses, but even the ships that can't remain useful.

I think we can ALL agree that we want a real reason to use Blasters in combat. What some of us want to push for though, is that we don't want the reasons to use other weapon systems to be null and void by the changes put in place. ;)

The only way I see to have blasters reach out to 15km+ without invalidating Amarr is to give Pulses an across-the-board range increase and extend their engagement envelope (and their DPS curves) that much further out onto the battlefield.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#618 - 2011-11-01 21:09:10 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Actually, I've never PvP'ed in Jita 4-4. Is it fun?

hell if I know Ugh

Well, damn. You get me all excited about someplace new to PvP and now you say you don't know and you can't even tell me more about it?

What about the rest of your posts? Are you just shooting off your mouth about other things you know nothing about here? How can I ever take your comments about blaster boats seriously now? Rage... rage... rage....

Nah, just kidding.... lol.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#619 - 2011-11-01 21:14:13 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
So Amarr would only be workable when you get T2 ammunition? Yep, matches my argument above... Lol


Ho because you think T1 blasters are better than T2's?
Because you think T2 blasters are uber with T2 ammo?

Flash news, T2 blasters get +10% dmg thw to spec, applys on mod so every one uses it with faction ammo because high range is crap and short range makes you miss/half hit 90% if not more.

So, Amarrian fellah's should be operational with T1 lasers. mkay...

Quote:
And even then, there would be little point to carry some Imperial Navy Multifrequency with you anymore because you're going to be raped by Hybrid AND Projectiles unless you can somehow maintain range against two races of ships that are faster than you and almost always far more cap-stable...


The thing is that you have nothing to do under 15km face to blaster ships like it or not is a fact.

Now every one forgot this because blasters actually are crap, you can orbit under 1.5km and web with your Zealot throwing pipe bombs on blaster hulls they will miss you so much is ridiculous, if you always orbit them over this and under 10km then you're doing it wrong. Either go away or go on top of them, that's why blasters suck even at their niche
This is actually how you own blasters ships, on top of their head or over 15km, while over 15km I agree your shortest weapon system with multi will do enough dmg, be on top of your oponent and blow it's brains with a giant sledge hammer is the job of blasters NOT LASERS.

Quote:
And with only T1 ammo, there would be little point to even sit in an Amarr ship.


It's the point for every single race. You add nothing relevant to the discussion stating this.

Quote:
The nuclear option IS the best option, because the balance of power that exists today between other weapon systems does not need to change to accomodate a new and improved blaster weapon system.


So you want them to keep that tiny short range engagement, be slower than you, but still have to run after you forever dreaming they can apply their ubber dmg (lol for uber dmg on ships with natural oversised tank)

Why is it so difficult to understand: shortest range weapon need the speed t get in range and use it's guns.

Can you snipe at 10Miles with a shot gun?
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#620 - 2011-11-01 21:18:09 UTC
People complaining about Amarr being underpowered have clearly never flown in a decent armor fleet before.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas!