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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
X Gallentius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2011-11-01 18:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
I guess my thinking is that rails are for "open ocean" fights, not blasters.

Also,
1. Caldari rails should perform better than Gallente rails.
2. Caldari rails should have significantly better dps than Projectiles to offset projectiles insane alpha.

Right now it seems to me that rails are better on a Thorax than a Moa, and that the dps of projectiles (Rupture) is on the same order as a Moa - which is ridiculous since artilleries are specialized for alpha. So, (1) make a Moa worth flying as a rail ship, and (2) the dps of artilleries needs to go down quite a bit to offset their insane alpha. We shouldn't be doing comparisons on dps versus range with projectiles - they should be clearly lower since their alpha is insanely high compared to the other turrets.

The key in the entire hybrids debate is projectiles. They are great at a few things and really, really good at others. Where's the tradeoff? There ought to be a tradeoff between alpha and dps for artillery.

Hopefully the hybrids buff makes blasters better at their intended range, but somehow think that autocannon max damage based on ammo type (and not vulnerable to neuts) will make autocannons still the better option for close range fights.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2011-11-01 18:26:58 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
[quote=ConXtionS]
Jumping in *at any range* is difficult if the target is moving. But this isn't a problem just for blaster boats. If you can't jump within scram/disrupter range in your Minmatar kiting boat, your target may just jump out before you can get within scram range, esp. if he's cruising around on MWD.


But there is one difference:
The Blasterboat needs to jump into the right range, otherwise he will loose his ship.
If the Minmatar doesn't jump into the right range he only looses an oportunity to kill someone.
The only bad thing that could happen to the Minmatar is if he accidently jumpes into the Blasterrange. Then he might get problems. But chances aren't that huge.

So whats the difference?
Blastership needs to jump successfully or he will loose his ship, AC ship needs to jump successfully or he will loose the opportunity.

In general, with a Blastership you always have to dive deep into the fire and take all risks to be successfull.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#583 - 2011-11-01 18:31:36 UTC
Bottom line why I think blasters really still need either added DPS OR added overload DPS: The game desperately needs a new FOTM, contrary to what many people ITT say. That's the only way to get bittervets to resubscribe in larger amounts, people need to get back to good old fashioned theory crafting and EFT warrioring tbh. Thus the blaster boost will need to at least *appear* very major (and tbh the commonly suggested 10-20% dps boost wouldn't actually be major in current TQ gameplay anyway. DPS/EHP/Speedwise the blasterboats will *still* die to a lot of their peers and be hard to use in gangs)

And I'm not asking for my own sake, I am already FOTM proof (most weapon systems and ships maxed, everything below cruiser size)

But I would like to see this game thrive once again, and shaking the balance and game mechanics is the ticket. But definitely, re-iteration on a more frequent basis than what the last few years has happened needs to happen in the future as well, and the FOTMs need to be changing...
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#584 - 2011-11-01 18:32:32 UTC
still using auto cannons on my Myr

buff the range ffs!

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#585 - 2011-11-01 18:37:53 UTC
... Overload damage boost

Come on Tallest, you know you want to... Pirate

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#586 - 2011-11-01 18:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Raimo
Gabriel Karade wrote:
... Overload damage boost

Come on Tallest, you know you want to... Pirate


Not emptyquoting! Would bring a nice unique gameplay twist and complement the blaster role very nicely.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2011-11-01 18:45:20 UTC
Raimo wrote:
and the FOTMs need to be changing...

Yepp, in reallity every faction would spend huge amounts on developing technologies to get the advantage.
Why not make the same real for EVE. Make it an never ending balancing process where the FOTM will change constantly and everybody gets exited what the Amarr answer will be on improved Hybrids and so on.

Fix it up, fix it down, just keep on moving.
Everything is better than have for example the Tengu to be the standard ship for PVE and WH activity for ages now ;)
Alain Kinsella
#588 - 2011-11-01 18:48:31 UTC
How about an update post from any Dev, that this thread *is* being picked through? No need for an actual statement of intend (not from me anyway), just a little something that says you're reading this.

Though I do not use this gun type, one reason many Gallente ship users feel shafted is that *both* of their weapon systems have problems. At least with Caldari, they can fallback to Missiles (not perfect either, but functioning). What does a Gal ship user have to fallback on? Drones.

*snerk*

CCP, if you're going to use lore or PF as part of your argument for Hybrid weapon balancing, then its important to take another look at Drones. Otherwise that argument will not hold water. Even refining their logic would be great right about now.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2011-11-01 18:52:04 UTC
My God, it's full of... win!
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#590 - 2011-11-01 18:58:07 UTC

Sizeof Void wrote:
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
The main issue is : actually, NO, or maybe a BIT more DPS for a LOT LESS range, in medium size gun, a blaster do more DPS than an AC UNDER 4000m ONLY!.

Since we're talking about fighting within blaster range, then you make my point - blasters do more damage than ACs. I'm not arguing that blasters have better range than ACs, that's not the point..

As i said, a BIT MORE DPS, and can't chose damage, so yes, blaster are better from 0 to 4000m, and AC better from 5km to 60km, and AC ship are faster than blasterboat, so are able to dictate the range, so don't come tell me it's fair and balanced. And yes, the range is the point, cause doing more DPS on EFT don't mean more DPS in the battlefield.

Sizeof Void wrote:
Jeffrey Powel wrote:

Add : a blaster boat have to fight ALWAYS at web/scramble range, so can't run after falcon, or logistics, ect, what a minmatar can do. So no, actually, having 10% more "EFT" DPS and 15% more EHP don't compensante.

You are really all over the place with this Falcon, logi stuff, and etc., arent' you? I already responded to your previous post on these topics.

It's maybe cause falcon, logi, med range ship are all over the place no? You diden't responded anything, you just say "blaster got enought DPS" and i say "10% more DPS in a 5km range when a standard battlefield is on at least 30km range don't balance the fact minmatar boat are more versatile and have more survivability and adaptability in PVP"
Howen
Sp4ce T3ch
#591 - 2011-11-01 19:00:50 UTC
Stop dammit matar boost
HAIL should not be boosted!
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#592 - 2011-11-01 19:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
Sizeof Void wrote:

Jumping in *at any range* is difficult if the target is moving. But this isn't a problem just for blaster boats. If you can't jump within scram/disrupter range in your Minmatar kiting boat, your target may just jump out before you can get within scram range, esp. if he's cruising around on MWD.

Blaster boats are difficult to fly - no argument. But, they are not impossible to fly.

And exploiting other pilots' mistakes - like not moving, or capping out because he forgot to shutoff his MWD, or not firing back because he forgot to load ammo, or going AFK - is also part of the game.


Standard math. You say a blasterboat have to land under 10km (i say under 5km cause crappy web, the time to lock, ect) and a minmatar boat have to land under 25km, upper to 5km, and got a better scan res. Here is the math : 5km < 20Km

+if the target is at 0m/s, if it's a trap, you are ****** in blasterboat, and not ****** in AC boat.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#593 - 2011-11-01 19:04:59 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Raimo wrote:
and the FOTMs need to be changing...

Yepp, in reallity every faction would spend huge amounts on developing technologies to get the advantage.
Why not make the same real for EVE. Make it an never ending balancing process where the FOTM will change constantly and everybody gets exited what the Amarr answer will be on improved Hybrids and so on.

Fix it up, fix it down, just keep on moving.
Everything is better than have for example the Tengu to be the standard ship for PVE and WH activity for ages now ;)


Of course, CCP used to do this, I actually thought it was a very clever way to keep ppl subbed for longer as eventually everyone wanted to train all races due to the changing game balance. It's just that 1-2 years ago they basically stopped doing it...
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#594 - 2011-11-01 19:05:51 UTC
Alex Harumichi wrote:

The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that you don't fly blaster boats outside of EFT. Sure, it would be nice to be able to land right on top of the target... but how often does that happen? Damn rarely, unless you're talking about 1:1... and how often does that happen outside consensual combat?

When looking at small-fleet (and hell, medium/large fleet) pvp, you're almost never conveniently on top of your target, you're typically 10-30km from the next one. If you're saying blaster ships should just warp out at that point, you're saying that blaster ships aren't currently viable for non-1vs1 pvp... which is sort of the point here.

Added: you also advocate not fitting MWD (because, apparently, you magically land on top of targets). Not sure what to say here, other than look bewildered. That sort of setup can work in precisely one situation: station camping. Outside that, flying a (non-frigate) blaster boat without MWD is suicide. Which you'd know, if you actually flew the things in real pvp.

Well, first off, consensual 1v1 combat is actually quite common in high sec and folks often seem to prefer to jump right on top of each other. But, if you are one of those who says high sec PvP isn't real PvP, then we'll move along.

As for how often you find a non-moving, non-consensual target... as with many things in Eve, it happens surprisingly more often than you might think. Don't believe me? Well, I cannot do much about that and not much point in arguing about it.

Small fleet - yep, usually moving and hard to jump directly to blaster range, unless the FC is dicking around (which never happens). But, if you are in a small fleet, then you probably have dedicated tacklers, too. And jumping to them, at blaster range, after a target has been tackled, is pretty straightforward. If you are solo, going after a small fleet, well.... what can I say, but good luck?

Medium/large fleet - don't often see much call for blaster boats, true enough, except for the occasional large scale gank. But, except for the random roam, most fleet compositions are standardized, without much variety in ship or weapon types - so, not only blaster boats are ignored here.

I've liked how everyone says that you always have to fit a MWD, a scram, and a web, in order to do PvP. If this were true, CCP should just perma-fit these modules to every ship in the game.

Sarcasm aside, you admit that if you land on target - magickally or whatever - you don't need the MWD. A scram and dual webs are going to pin down most ships, Minmatar or otherwise, unless they use ECM to break the locks. This is a tactic I'd consider against a Minmatar ship, simply because trying to chase one down in a blaster boat is usually futile (or fatal).

If I'm hunting non-Minmatar ships which are slower than my blaster boat, they I'd probably switch back to using a MWD, and a scram, and possibly a web (but maybe not).

I guess that my main point is that there isn't (and should not be) one ship, one weapon, one race, one loadout, to fit all situations. Certainly, some combinations (Minmatar + ACs) have greater flexibility and can be used in a variety of combat situations. Whereas others are more specialized, and are suited for specific types of combat. Blasters and blaster boats fit into the latter category - and trying to adapt them into a general-purpose role doesn't make much sense, when there are already plenty of other options for those roles.

As a few posters have stated earlier, I don't want to turn blasters into ACs and I don't want blasters to become the insta-win of close combat. There has to be variety, and there has to always be risk, or PvP just isn't fun.
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#595 - 2011-11-01 19:18:00 UTC
I don't want a blaster AC like, or a WTF DPS machine at close range, but whith all the new things in EVE like web nerf, T2 ammo, new scramble, logistic, new ship, AC buff, nos nerf, ect,ect... i really think blaster HAVE TO be buff. A bit more failoff OR a bit more damage, nothing incredible.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#596 - 2011-11-01 19:18:49 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

Well, a scram is only good for 9-14km (assuming that you are not officer fit), which is still within falloff for medium blasters. Not as much pew, but perhaps enough when combined with drones. An opponent might fit a disrupter instead of a scram - but, given that you also might have fit a MWD instead of a second web, it becomes one of those rock-paper-scissors game. And whoever guesses right tends to win.


Didnt we start the thread saying that gallente are slow? So by that premise, the opponent will be able to kite you if Gallente are slower than them. And all other races have better mid range weapons..

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#597 - 2011-11-01 19:23:21 UTC
Before this patch and after this patch Blasters are still only 27% more useful in 3 situations and Rails are still useless:
1. Station undock games
2. Gate Camps
3. Small fleet vs 1 where the blaster boat warps to 0 when the target is tackled. ( which also mean your missing out on the first 10 seconds of the fight or so, at 800 dps, thats 8000 dps you did not do so the damage when you arrive better make up for that very quickly, becuase AC's and Pulses have been chugging along doing thier damage the whole engagment)

Meanwhile AC's get very a substantial boost to Hail in effect doubling its range increasing their versatility and effectivness.

If this is the final rebalance, what is the best way to move forward? Simple let us take back our skill points in gallente hulls and hybrids and put them where they are useful AC's or Pulses.
Junky Juke
Atom Heart Mothership
#598 - 2011-11-01 19:29:29 UTC
I noticed that you excluded the Myrmidon from the speed buff list and I wonder why!
Do you consider the myrmidon a sniping ship? All of us know exactly how to fit a myrm for PVP and all of us know that you MUST use blasters or projectile autocannons! So please consider giving the +5 speed bonus to the myrmidon too. (+10 may be too much because the myrm is not a gunboat)

For the rest I feel very satisfied with your choices, good job guys Lol
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#599 - 2011-11-01 19:31:50 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

I'll feed you...

Yum... thank you!
Vincent Gaines wrote:

MWD and cap booster. If you think you don't need them you don't PvP much outside of Jita 4-4.

Actually, I've never PvP'ed in Jita 4-4. Is it fun?

Cap booster - you really don't need it, esp. with a 30% reduction in cap use. Even today, with maxed fitting skills (which I do have and recommend to everyone), the Gallente T1 gunboats are actually cap stable, with a full rack of guns. Adding a MWD takes it down a notch, but since you do not run the MWD continuously, and rarely while you are actually firing blasters, it isn't an issue.

MWD.... since the scram buff, it has become a tougher call to auto fit the MWD. In many cases, an AB is a better choice, even for a blaster boat that needs to close range. A scrammed MWD does notthing, after all - whereas an AB can still get you into range, if your opponent is fitting a MWD, and you'v'e got him scrammed, too.

As for the case where you don't need either a MWD or an AB.... speed is relative. If you can land within scram/web range, your MWD and your opponent's MWD would be useless (worse than useless, since they take up a mid-slot and a good chunk of PG), so why fit it at all? Say, now that you've got two webs fitted, so your opponent's speed is going to drop rather dramatically - enough that you'll probably be able to close range at your normal speed (or even halved speed, if he hits you with single web) - except for the Dram, which needs a speed nerf. Certainly, your opponent will not be going anywhere fast, and it will be difficult for him to reach kiting range.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#600 - 2011-11-01 19:39:39 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

As for how often you find a non-moving, non-consensual target... as with many things in Eve, it happens surprisingly more often than you might think. Don't believe me? Well, I cannot do much about that and not much point in arguing about it.


Ahahaha. Get real. Yeah, i've dropped in at zero on a newb a few dozen times in the last six years too. That doesn't mean it's a common occurence at all. Another bum premise.

Sizeof Void wrote:

I've liked how everyone says that you always have to fit a MWD, a scram, and a web, in order to do PvP. If this were true, CCP should just perma-fit these modules to every ship in the game.


Obviously you don't need full tackle if your gang or fleet is flush with dedicated tackle, but I think you'll find fleets of that size tend to disqualify blasters (for reasons you've already hinted at). Thusly, in blaster-friendly pvp (very small gang, solo) you do need the trinity.

Sizeof Void wrote:

Sarcasm aside, you admit that if you land on target - magickally or whatever - you don't need the MWD. A scram and dual webs are going to pin down most ships, Minmatar or otherwise, unless they use ECM to break the locks. This is a tactic I'd consider against a Minmatar ship, simply because trying to chase one down in a blaster boat is usually futile (or fatal).


Are you actually suggesting no prop mod at all? heh

Sizeof Void wrote:

If I'm hunting non-Minmatar ships which are slower than my blaster boat, they I'd probably switch back to using a MWD, and a scram, and possibly a web (but maybe not).


If you're hunting minmatar ships SLOWER than your blaster boat, you're hunting battleships in a cruiser or frigate.

Sizeof Void wrote:

I guess that my main point is that there isn't (and should not be) one ship, one weapon, one race, one loadout, to fit all situations. Certainly, some combinations (Minmatar + ACs) have greater flexibility and can be used in a variety of combat situations. Whereas others are more specialized, and are suited for specific types of combat. Blasters and blaster boats fit into the latter category - and trying to adapt them into a general-purpose role doesn't make much sense, when there are already plenty of other options for those roles.


Sure, there shouldn't be one ship for all situations. That's exactly the problem I have with projectiles and minmatar in general. Blasters should have more of a general effective window of opportunitiy. They shouldn't be able to disengage at will, but they should have a reasonable chance to punish ships they tackle, that is supposed to be their forte.