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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#2221 - 2013-01-19 08:02:26 UTC
Our corp lives full time in Anoikis and have for going on 2 years now...

Give us the Modular POS or GIVE US A WORKABLE POS.

But... may I make a suggestion?

Toss the current POS and give us Waking in Sleeper Stations... let us take them over and live in THEM!
Sleeper Missiles...
Sleeper Lazors...
dare I say it... Sleeper Ships? OH HELL YEA!!

Either that or FIX THE GODS DAMNED POS!

'nough said.

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#2222 - 2013-01-19 09:14:44 UTC
POS revamp - Because we're worth it =)
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2223 - 2013-01-19 09:15:01 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:

From page 15:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "


From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE



Let's break this down into a couple smaller ideas first because as a former programmer I know it can't all be done at once ..... but if you look both inside the box, and outside it, you can find solutions to most of the problems quickly.



In-Game Art and its effects on the game

Why are you guys trying to re-invent the wheel? You have literally TONS of in-game art you could use, albeit with some changes in color and appearance, which is already optimized for gameplay that won't effect it, and that would be more than effective in setting up a modular POS:

- Wolf Burgan's Hideout could be used as a small tower.

- Fort Kumar could be a large tower.

- Serpentis Hideout could be a medium tower/modular POS.

- Sansha's Hub as an example of another style of modular POS.

- Sansha's Occupied Mining Colony could be useful for moon mining operations, and it could serve as a large modular POS.

- Elohim X-Instinct LADAR site could also be another modular POS that you could upgrade over time.

- Forgotten Frontier Quarantine Outpost would be a useful example of a small/medium modular POS.




Security and Access on modular towers/POS's

Think corporate outpost using alliance outposts as the primer.

This could be addressed by simply having the same initernal mechanics of an outpost or station with individual hangars and a corp hangar with it's seven slots applied to the modular tower/POS. Since the backend mechanics for this are already built into the game, you simply tailor them around a modular tower and treat it like an outpost except that it cannot be "taken over" like an outpost. And if you need more room, it's modular; you simply add it.

The biggest issue we have with managing towers is how the access rights are setup. If you could lose the drop down lists (example: "Based at ..... ") and simply make a checkbox like you have for titles (example: "View" checked=you can see items but cannot take, "Take" checked = "View" and can place/remove items and automatically checks "View")

Having individual hangars, and/or allowing them, based on say new players to a WH corp, would eliminate the concerns 99% of us have about corporate theft and would solve the problems with inventory and loot when it comes to who owns what.

Gameplay

Towers should continue to provide what they offer now in the form of bonuses/defense/etc., and other than revamping some of the code on how they operate, they should continue to provide the services they offer now.

And since they are modular, adding and removing sections to a modular tower would be just like adding/removing from an outpost.


Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2224 - 2013-01-19 09:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Balder Verdandi
Jacabon Mere wrote:
your quoting irrelevant stuff.

CCP Unifex. (Page 37)

It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes.

CCP Soundwave (Page 38)

On top of that, Soundwave added, the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community.

The objections are to those. Any defence for them when it is quite clear that a lot of people have vested interests?




This is the problem and I agree with Jacabon; the idea that "this only affects a small percentage of people" doesn't make sense because where does all the research come from? While it does affect the small number of tower managers, overall it affects anyone in a corporation that has at least one tower ...... and these numbers are huge.

Personally I would love to provide a second/third/fourth tower available to my corp mates so that they could run their own research jobs, or make their own ammo/drones/ships, or do some invention. However, the current security and access schema prevents me from doing so because there isn't enough granular control over access to corporate hangars or allowing jobs to be run from personal hangars. If there was any focus that needed to be done to how a tower functions, this is where you should start as my previous post covering art and gameplay covers everything but this.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Scout Esterhazy
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2225 - 2013-01-19 09:28:39 UTC
Modular POS would be great. Not that I expect to see anything for a while, I know how game dev is, it's a long arduous process. But still, progress of any type is always appreciated. Smile
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2226 - 2013-01-19 09:55:54 UTC
Going back to argument of poses affecting only small part of comunity

Apart from WH's which should be obviuos that it touched ALL WH DWELLERS.


Look at this topic from different perspective - WHY THE HELL did you reiterated FW? It was only small part of comunity, right? So why bother?

BECAUSE you made it better andthat followed with increase in usage of FW.

Now go back to what You wanted to do with POS'es - personal POSes? MINI POSes for small corps? Ability to expand without removing the proevious? Ability to put POSES anywhere and multiple POS on grid? Heck, even wild idea from grascale: POS Warp Drive...

Now let me tell you something - implement these things, and you will get a HUGGGGGEEEE increase in POS usage from all over the EVE:

- players will place their SOLO POS
- small corps will try to place "covert" footholds in enemy teritory by placeing poses in some deep spots
- players will go with emergent gameplay like putting poses near gates as chokepoints for incoming fleets (if that will be available)
- players will build wonderfull strongholds with those - where lack of forcefield would actually make teraing them down a chalange and not tedious work

Just think how many players then would be affected - new ways of fight with poses (how many people today POS BASH? Thousands!!!! New ways of player housing, New ways of defending your home system.... and so on and so forth....


Go get You **** together and think Big on this - the whole Community of EVE will be very greatfull. Not only the enablers.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Tornisk
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2227 - 2013-01-19 09:59:06 UTC
I would be a shame if CCP would'nt improve POSes and WH side of the game !
Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2228 - 2013-01-19 10:04:12 UTC
I just really wanted to +1 this thread because I believe Two Step is spot on here. I don't believe he would have started this thread unless he felt after the Winter Summit there was a possibility POS reworking or iteration would not happen in a timeframe the playerbase would be happy with. As such, I hope the devs are paying very, very close attention to this thread because I am a part of that small portion of the community.

www.crossingzebras.com
Anuki Peime
LM Industry and more
#2229 - 2013-01-19 10:16:02 UTC
POSes need a revamp, do it

Sorry for my bad english, spelling errors are for general amusement, if you find a grammar error you can keep it !!!
mr roadkill
Silent but Violent
#2230 - 2013-01-19 10:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: mr roadkill
CCP Gargant wrote:
THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE


Would a little things/thousand cuts approach work with this or do we need a clear picture of the final product.

What are the mechanics people find the most bad about the current pos and start to include them as seen in several of the most recent 'expansions' .

I'm not trying to high jack this thread here but if everyone posted their top hate about the way pos currently work surely something could be done to work around it even if the code is 8 years old or whatever. Small changes could be released as part of the next couple of expansions or something Smile until the art/modelling team have time to commit to this.

For example - lots of people complain about security at poses - introduce a personal hanger module that uses the corp hanger model, when modules/ships are in here they are marked as yours and not visible to other players much like your PI in a customs office. If the module is destroyed all items in the hanger still spill out as normal (and before someone starts trolling and saying looks like someones had stuff nicked recently - Yes i have ok ;)) Or even easier (i think) introduce an audit log to corp and ship hangers so you can see who your thief is.

Changes to poses doesn't have to be a complete change of the system in my opinion just a mechanics change. Once all the teams have free time you can then do EXODUS 2.0.
Syr Dread
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2231 - 2013-01-19 10:37:29 UTC
Just wanted to say here's another 3 accounts with two of them living in w-space and the third in training and heading there shortly... and i had my share of POS annoyance in my old corp setting them up in w-space and managing them... it is hell and really annoying atm...

Wont rehash all them arguments for how POSes are kaputt right now. So i'll leave it at that.
mr roadkill
Silent but Violent
#2232 - 2013-01-19 10:40:42 UTC
Syr Dread wrote:

Wont rehash all them arguments for how POSes are kaputt right now. So i'll leave it at that.


I agree as many points have been made before - Ill change my above statement to - why cant CCP come up with a list of little things and improve them Blink
Dayjavu
The Archaeus Initiative
#2233 - 2013-01-19 10:44:39 UTC
Do not abandon the pos revamp!
bowlofmilk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2234 - 2013-01-19 11:01:25 UTC
CCP i will love you forever if you revamp POSES

Radgette
EVE Irn Bru Distribution
#2235 - 2013-01-19 11:28:59 UTC
please for the love of god do something about the incesant clicking required to run a pos industry setup.

I have my own personal pos and it's a complete ball ache running it so much so i probably lose loads of isk because half the time i cba to log in and switch stuff over in time.

even just starting by streamlining the silo's make them bigger and generic for reactions so you only need 1 or 2 instead of daisy chains.

basically my biggest problem with pos is with industry clicking as a whole :P

the 3 second online/offline was a step in the right direction tho. keep doing little things every patch
StarStryder
Zero-Hour
#2236 - 2013-01-19 11:31:38 UTC
If I read the CSM minutes correctly, CCP's problem is that they'd almost need to dedicate an entire release to the POS improvements and they didn't want to do this sort of "one feature" release anymore.

So, here's the sort of thing I'd like to see over three releases:

1) Security revamp. The ability to select titles (including Director) when setting access to POS modules. Corp hangars in SMAs. The ability to run personal research jobs in corp labs. Better options on forcefield access (standings based, limit to titles etc.)

2) Ease of use. Remote management or even just remote status dashboards would be a blessing. The ability of fill and empty silos without the offline/online faff. The ability to layout move and anchor a group of structures in one go.

3) Look and feel. Modular POSes. Make it happen.

This should let you FIX THE 10 YEAR OLD CRAP FEST whilst still doing other stuff with each release.

And please don't say it only affects a small number of people. If every POS manager in the game gave up managing POSes then everything except highsec would be impossible to do.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2237 - 2013-01-19 11:34:51 UTC
I support this. The notion that revamp will only affect POS managers doesn't realy work since it's not just interface overhaul that may be (or not, depends) needed. Whoever lives or seeks shelter using POS have to deal with not just interface, but mechanics (including internal security). Then it's maybe worth it to look at the way POS industry and defences work.

All in all, aspects of using POS are many, and it's not just what buttons POS manager have to press, so to speak, even if this one should be looked at as well.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Ziggyjig Dohvahk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2238 - 2013-01-19 11:41:43 UTC
The POS revamp was one of the things I was most really looking forward to. Sad

Please CCP, if you do anything in 2013, please do this.
Celestis Kudzu
Elliss
#2239 - 2013-01-19 11:49:24 UTC
+1 on modular pos, and normal invention/production ui Big smile
Luc Chastot
#2240 - 2013-01-19 12:36:22 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:

- small corps will try to place "covert" footholds in enemy teritory by placeing poses in some deep spots


It would need to be carefully balanced, but I like the idea of allowing the FW factions to place footholds on enemy territory.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.