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Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

First post First post
Author
District Jr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1341 - 2013-01-17 17:52:27 UTC
I am a "small portion of the EVE community" and I want POS improvement.

Making small improvement now and rewriting a completely new system later on top of that doesn't seem logical to me. Do it at once.
Sascha Fandermar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1342 - 2013-01-17 17:52:54 UTC
+1
Kara ''STARBUCK'' Thrace
Doomheim
#1343 - 2013-01-17 17:53:25 UTC
Plz fix POS's for the love of god.

So say we all
n00b Paralex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1344 - 2013-01-17 17:53:25 UTC
Please add better POSes!
Zartel
Obscure Phenomena
U N K N O W N
#1345 - 2013-01-17 17:53:49 UTC
Up, posses need total revamp.
Raiken Kaminari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1346 - 2013-01-17 17:54:10 UTC
Two step wrote:

What I said was:
1) CCP has decided to not do modular POSes all at once
2) CCP has not decided what they will be working on this Summer
3) CCP did say that modular POSes would matter for only a small population of players

What I am trying to do with my blog post and this thread is demonstrate to CCP that #3 is wrong, and that POSes should be a part of the summer expansion (#2).


While POSes would "only affect a small population of players" the trickle down effect is very great. Typically the people managing and griping the most about the POS problems are supporting a much larger cast. If CCP is inferring that only people who have to manage the POS (and I lump corp roles into this as well) are a small population of players without taking into consideration how many other pilots are affected, then they are very wrong.
Teroh Vizjereij
Tolarian Academy
#1347 - 2013-01-17 17:54:37 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
It's somewhat amusing to think about who the real minority that doesn't matter is; the devs themselves. Numerically they are automatically the minority when compared to the userbase. The reason they don't matter? They are getting paid to do their jobs, complaining that it's too much work in days like this when people are getting laid off left and right is just downright idiotic.

No more excuses, time to deliver.


Adding to that .. most of the dev's arn't even actively playing their own game and make assumptions about what the playerbase wants based on .. crystal balls? Cause like Blizzard, they sure don't listen to what the playerbase is suggesting them.

The pos revamp is badly needed and it should be the main focus of the next big expansion ... and dont tell us its not doable, it sure is!

Shooting some structures in Jita gave us one very good player inspired expansion. Do we really have to shoot structures on a half year base now to get expansions with feature that WE want?

Glad to see we have the old CCP back /sarcasm
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#1348 - 2013-01-17 17:54:44 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
Ayeson wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
Unfortunately I don't think pitchforks and rage will change Unifex's opinion on this. . . . . . . Data on the other hand is a much better tool to get the general point across.

For CCP: What metric did Unifex/Seagull/Ripley/Soundwave use to come to the conclusion that the major POS work would effect a small number of people?

For Players: What kind of metric do you think would show CCP how important changing the state of POSes is?



I HOPE twelve hundred posts in 12 hours will have more weight on his opinion than you think.


That's not really hard data and 1200 posts means nothing if they are from 20 people.

Number of towers per corp would be a metric, number of hours involved in doing simple pos tasks, number of characters that are involved in accessing a pos per day. . . . . . . those are the metrics that I think will mean more than forum posts.
So go back and look - I'm entirely certian there are easy tools to show the number of unique posters in any specific thread. My guess is, close to 700 unique posters.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#1349 - 2013-01-17 17:54:53 UTC
Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#1350 - 2013-01-17 17:55:14 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Thanks for posting <3


.

Zeph1rus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1351 - 2013-01-17 17:55:36 UTC
Avoiding the POS issue is like refocusing your whole spaceship game to be about walking around in metal boxes. It's a stupid idea, fortunately no-one would ever do that.
mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1352 - 2013-01-17 17:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Gwyneth wrote:
mynnna wrote:


Those are poor metrics, because POS are in many ways so broken that all but the most masochistic of enablers and instigators work with them, on behalf of everyone else.

That's something CCP can change.

Yeah, lets encourage CCP to make business decisions based on no data. It did wonders for the Incarna expansion.


I am not encouraging CCP to make business decisions based on no data. But on the other hand, this is not Planetside 2, where they can look at real-world time to kill stats for weapons and make balancing decisions that way. Data is not all that matters - there are more subjective issues as well. And that's where the problem lies. Not in CCP's apparent abandonment of the revamp - CCP Gargant so helpfully pointed out, that's not the case. No, the problem lies in CCP Unifex's apparent misunderstanding of player priorities in this case. The overlooking of the fact that perhaps POS managers are a small population because they're so horrible. Overlooking the fact that those who do run them are instigators and enablers, the types of players who do work for everyone. Overlooking the fact that helping those players out has an effect that ripples out beyond just them.

THAT is the problem. And THAT is what I'm encouraging CCP to consider while making business decisions.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Deadcode Analord
Doomheim
#1353 - 2013-01-17 17:55:56 UTC
Recently a member of my corp was promoted to director and he said, I quote "Holy s**t this is what you have to deal with every day?" in regards to POS/corp roles interaction.

K, I'll stop now.
Dr Splargo
Red-Five
#1354 - 2013-01-17 17:56:23 UTC
/signed
Finarfin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1355 - 2013-01-17 17:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Finarfin
CCP Gargant wrote:

THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE



I have been playing this game for 7 years and have been fighting with the abysmal POS system in every of its wide spread applications. I extremely happy to hear about a POS redesign prototype in the works as it is the major reason which keeps from trying to run a WH corp myself.

While I am grateful for your bravery to face the angry masses and give us some information I have again lost all hope about a meaningful revamp. I have read CCP excuses, plans and 'visions' for too many years. At best we will get some hasty bandaids for the most glaring problems and then the issue will be ignored again, as it has been the last 6 years.

There will be no major POS usability tweaks in 2013 nor will there be any kind of modular POS in 2013 or 2014. It was nice for the short time I actually thought these long asked features would actually be developed but then again I have to be realistic. It's CCP after all. Monopols have never been favourable for high quality work or innovation.
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust
#1356 - 2013-01-17 17:57:48 UTC
Indeed Unifex signed the most epic fail since the times of greed is good. Spoken like someone who does not (yet?) own a POS because CCP.

__________________________ just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after you

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#1357 - 2013-01-17 17:58:07 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
Ayeson wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
Unfortunately I don't think pitchforks and rage will change Unifex's opinion on this. . . . . . . Data on the other hand is a much better tool to get the general point across.

For CCP: What metric did Unifex/Seagull/Ripley/Soundwave use to come to the conclusion that the major POS work would effect a small number of people?

For Players: What kind of metric do you think would show CCP how important changing the state of POSes is?



I HOPE twelve hundred posts in 12 hours will have more weight on his opinion than you think.


That's not really hard data and 1200 posts means nothing if they are from 20 people.

Number of towers per corp would be a metric, number of hours involved in doing simple pos tasks, number of characters that are involved in accessing a pos per day. . . . . . . those are the metrics that I think will mean more than forum posts.


They're not good enough metrics. You can't measure the popularity of owning your own house by looking at how many people spend their time in a house where there is no running water, electricity or heating and everything smells of cat urine, The current system is simply so primitive and lacking, that most people avoid having to deal with it unless it's absolutely necessary to achieve something they want.

What these kinds of threads highlight is, that there is great demand and desire to see the system improved, so that it can become something more then a mandatory burden to be endured for the sake of efficiency or necessity. The fact so few actually actively use the system is just more proof, that the system is fundamentally in need of dev love to bring out that potential and get more people involved.
Toshaheri Talvinen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1358 - 2013-01-17 17:58:41 UTC
CCP, please fix POS's. Many more people use them than you think
Orin Zhu
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1359 - 2013-01-17 17:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Orin Zhu
/signed

Edit: we're not asking for "ALL AT ONCE", but if you guys had started working on POS mechanics 6 YEARS AGO, then it would already be finished.
Tover Chris
Suicide Kings
#1360 - 2013-01-17 17:58:55 UTC
Today I learned 6 years means "all at once"