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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#301 - 2013-01-07 10:53:57 UTC
Sorry for the delayed reply folks. CCP Bettik is the man with the plan on pve complexes and he was gone on vacation then came down sick. The rest of us on the team had a good idea of the thought process here and had a chance to go over a bit of it with the CSM before the holidays but we wanted to wait until we went over it thoroughly with Bettik before making the public post.

The good news is that I've now had a chance to touch base with Bettik and go over the situation.

Back in the day when most of the DED complexes were moved from static spawns to the exploration system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were left static because it was thought that leaving them accessible for people who had not yet learned how to probe would benefit new players. A happy side effect of that decision (that most of you are very familiar with) was that the lowsec plexes became geographical landmarks that give people a location to fight over to a certain extent.

However during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content. The decision was made that special casing these plexes from the rest of the DED system was no longer worth it, and that the content would serve its primary purpose much better and to a much wider variety of people as exploration content.

This of course meant losing some of the interesting and positive gameplay associated with the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes, just as the old removal of the 6/10, 8/10 and 10/10 statics removed interesting gameplay in its time. However with hindsight it's fairly clear to us that the benefits of the old static plex removal outweighed the harm, with the content being run by many more people than could ever use the old farmable statics. The benefits of this change will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole (although less concentrated than previously). The downsides of course are a reduction in the number of geographical features that make some systems unique, as well as the easily seen focal point for players in space. We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic.

One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#302 - 2013-01-07 11:02:14 UTC
So DED 1 and 2 complexes would become static "arena" type areas, would they be throught high and low sec or just low sec? If high sec also would concord interferience be removed in them?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#303 - 2013-01-07 11:03:54 UTC
If you put these dead spaces through out the universe, could you consider adding the ability to anchor POS in them.

Being able to 'colonise' a plex in hostile 0.0 might be cool, especially if you got to choose one that restricted access to frigates, or sub-caps or some other random combination of ships.
Mary Clarissa Titor
#304 - 2013-01-07 11:04:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?


Do that, (with no NPCs whatsoever) make entering them a mildly illegal act -- the kind that gives people a suspect flag but nothing else -- and you've got the closest equivalent to arenas people keep asking about that Eve can have, duels with no sec status losses, for the least possible amount of coding.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#305 - 2013-01-07 11:15:09 UTC
I think that a reward should still be in place.

From my experience, the NPC rats were basically like "rain" in the duels that followed, but the actual goal was always, and always, to loot or deny the loot tothe other player in the room.

So I think that if a "new" complex was added, with the reward in the end it'd result in pretty much be the same, especially with the keys and acess timers.

All in all What I trully suggest is just the same complex, renamed, added as a static location, with the NPC's and all, to continue doing what was being done.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#306 - 2013-01-07 11:24:26 UTC
Mary Clarissa Titor wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?


Do that, (with no NPCs whatsoever) make entering them a mildly illegal act -- the kind that gives people a suspect flag but nothing else -- and you've got the closest equivalent to arenas people keep asking about that Eve can have, duels with no sec status losses, for the least possible amount of coding.


Consensual flagging to a specific person or persons is something we want to do with wider availability than just certain limited locations.


Morgan North wrote:
I think that a reward should still be in place.

From my experience, the NPC rats were basically like "rain" in the duels that followed, but the actual goal was always, and always, to loot or deny the loot tothe other player in the room.

So I think that if a "new" complex was added, with the reward in the end it'd result in pretty much be the same, especially with the keys and acess timers.

All in all What I trully suggest is just the same complex, renamed, added as a static location, with the NPC's and all, to continue doing what was being done.


The shift to exploration was done in part to reduce farming of the content, and introducing new rewards is something that has to be done carefully. The main question I'm trying to answer with the "no NPC" query is how much of the pvp was fueled by the loot rewards and how much was fueled by the interesting geography of the acceleration gates. If it's the latter the solution is more simple, if it's the former the solution is more complex.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#307 - 2013-01-07 12:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Nobody except farmers cared about NPCs behind accel gates because massive amounts of fights was outside of plex anyway. You hanged out at beacon until somebody arrived and if you didn't want to take that fight because of whatever you warped out or used accel gate as immediate GTFO and warp out then.

And farmers in low got a one way ticket to clone vat sooner or later.

EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.

Invalid signature format

Tetsel
House Amamake
Heretic Nation
#308 - 2013-01-07 12:37:18 UTC
I'm not concerned about the DED stuff, but introducing some kind of "pvp arenas" in this game is, in my mind, not EVE spirit compliant.

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#309 - 2013-01-07 12:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful?

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.

To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#310 - 2013-01-07 12:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.


Well, I would say that it is just opposite - all fights happen at places which have not combat oriented function. Gates - travel between systems. Belts - rats and mining. Stations - ships docking, trade, repairshop, medical clone, etc. I would say that there is not even one place in Eve that is dedicated for pvp.

Think about it in this way: if you remove all offensive means of interaction between players' ships from Eve (guns, drones, scrams, ecm, etc.) would any of current places lose its purpose of existence?

Invalid signature format

Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#311 - 2013-01-07 13:39:37 UTC
I'm pretty ok with content existing in Eve that I personally wouldn't use. So I'm ok with adding "arenas".

You do know that people would game them, don't you? Point frigates landing on the gate with battlecruisers and gank them as they try to go in.

Also I really like it that conflict in Eve happens as a course of going about one's business. Maybe I'll get ganked when I'm fuelling my pos, maybe I'll catch a straggler ghosting along behind a big fleet op in my Rapier. It's the asymmetry that appeals.

Putting in mini-Warsong Gulches creates a space where everyone is there only to pvp while incidentally, accidentally, protecting the rest of Eve from them. If 20 frigates are fighting in an arena they just kill pvpers. If 20 frigates are fighting on a gate and a Badger jumps in, dead Badger. I much prefer the worldiness of the second scenario.

Also it's worth remembering that designed content negates the need for emergent content. We have some really good player conceived methods of generating frigate pvp. Red v Blue, the Tuskers events, etc. If there's no need to come up with such ideas because there are these deadspace battlegrounds Eve loses some of its character.

But sure, stick them in if you like. I'll be on the gate in my cane looking forward to meeting the enthusiastic frigate pilots!

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#312 - 2013-01-07 13:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
CCP Fozzie wrote:
However during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content. The decision was made that special casing these plexes from the rest of the DED system was no longer worth it, and that the content would serve its primary purpose much better and to a much wider variety of people as exploration content.


There is a problem with this. Removing them and dropping them into the scanned sites reduced the amount of people who had access to this content. 1,2,3/10's do not spawn in low sec and below. Low sec and below already suffers for want of content and things to do for frigates and new players. A player is advised to get a cruiser or assault frigate if they want to do exploration in low sec.

If this is the true goal then we need to have lower end complexes spawn in low sec to be explored. New players that wish to live in low sec by choice or by joining an established group early in the game have very little to no recourse for content that they can work on on their own. This area of the game appeals to people who enjoy doing things by themselves but they are constantly forced into holding patterns to wait to be able to handle that content. The security of the space is important sure but that danger has to do with the lack of protection from Concord and the Empire's control not only the strength of the NPCs.

I like to point out that I am an advocate for social game play and group needs but a new player needs content they can do. It builds confidence and it also builds good survival skills. The nature of our corporations tends to lead to small groups and having someone logged on every moment of the day to help with the most basic of Pve needs is not going to happen.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?


The issue with farming comes from the high price of the reward of these complexes and the simple nature of access. If the complexes were re-induced with a more balanced reward mechanic or a smaller cookie of some type.

While the focus is on what the people did with the content due to its nature is the greater goal, the smaller goal was the natural creation of that content manipulation. As I said above there is not a lot of content for smaller class ships in the area. To keep the belivability of the content as something interesting to look at the murky explorer focused depths of my mind almost wonder about it becoming a static radar/mag site.

I'm terrible about coming up with game play ideas. It is not my creative area. I just feel that the focus for replacement/change/new needs to work off of the original goal of the original complexes so that player fueled game play can grow naturally out of that. If we try to make it happen from the start we are introducing a mechanic that has the potential to be broken from the start because it's Eve and it's hard to see every angle of things.

I need some tea to wake up.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#313 - 2013-01-07 13:49:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful?

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.

To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.


The 2/10's were never an arena.

They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc.

An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates.

And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.

Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#314 - 2013-01-07 14:19:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose



Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/


My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#315 - 2013-01-07 14:49:53 UTC
By turning these into "arenas" it could have a negative impact of faction warfare complexes, which are used by both FW and pirates for PvP

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

VonKolroth
Anarchist's Anonymous
#316 - 2013-01-07 15:00:41 UTC
Laktos wrote:

They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc...


...PvP Guy 3 camps the same system in a fotm frig, with two boosting alts in t3's POSed up.

In all seriousness, I do miss the quick fights these sites often provided, but I'd be lying if I said it was quality PvP or that they generated particularly good fights. MOst of the PvP problems would be solved if there were reasons to go to lowsec beyond capital/booster manufacturing, FW, and a handful of static PLEXes.

Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP

FistyMcBumBasher
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#317 - 2013-01-07 15:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: FistyMcBumBardier
CCP Fozzie wrote:

One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?


I never did the old DED sites, but what you described sounds a lot like Faction Warfare plexes in their current form. Maybe make it so that once one of the DED sites is scanned and warped to it appears on the overview so that others can warp to the plex, thereby creating pvp conflict? This would be a middle ground between completely removing them from overview and giving newbie scanners something to strive for.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#318 - 2013-01-07 15:11:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful?

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.

To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.


I remember roaming highsec for 1&2 Ded's and finding the mineral cans empty everytime and in the 1's a load of Serpentis Drug Overload wrecks I eventually started to fit a salvager for, as it gave tech2 salvage. Within sites that I happened upon a kill and gate key, I would find a guy orbiting the collidable objects at 30km in a hookbill or Punisher that I would sneak the loot away from, though I got killed a few times. I always suspected it was a scripted AI. In order, I think, to make them arenas, or miniature drone incursions, their place must be fixed or predictable. Maybe give them a set system, but make them scan able. As it is, the fights would come as often as I've fought over radar sites in low. Few and far in between, but still fun.
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#319 - 2013-01-07 16:07:19 UTC
VonKolroth wrote:
Laktos wrote:

They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc...


...PvP Guy 3 camps the same system in a fotm frig, with two boosting alts in t3's POSed up.

In all seriousness, I do miss the quick fights these sites often provided, but I'd be lying if I said it was quality PvP or that they generated particularly good fights. MOst of the PvP problems would be solved if there were reasons to go to lowsec beyond capital/booster manufacturing, FW, and a handful of static PLEXes.


When I say vibrant I don't mean constant "good fights". I mean a healthy mixture of blobbing, camping, spontaneousness and 1v1's. Constant "good fights" would be nearly as stale as constant blobbing or ganking.

Their relevance should not be determined by whether they give regular "good fights" or not. It's the amount and the mixture of PVP that went on there that made them relevant. And in a sea of inactive low-sec systems, these places were relatively buzzing with PVP action.

Now those systems and areas are dieing. All because CCP wants to stop some farmers from farming. It's completely mad.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.

Firebolt145
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2013-01-07 16:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Firebolt145
Laktos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful?

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.

To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.


The 2/10's were never an arena.

They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc.

An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates.

And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes.

I don't know mate. I get what you're saying, but back in Heild, it was very rare for a fight to start there because 'some poor pve newbie got lost and thought he could make isk here'. It was always started because 'yo guys I feel like pvp I'm gonna get my destroyer/assault frig and warp to the plex at 50km, who wants to come?'

From that point on it became blobbing/people bringing bigger ships/lots of lulz, which is what you said too, but I'm just disagreeing about your statement that it was the pve loot that started it all in the first place.