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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Author
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2012-09-04 09:20:25 UTC
betoli wrote:
You keep asking the same question despite the fact its been answered several times by several people....

The problem is that a lot of the current representatives do spend a fair bit of time in hisec, doing things which hisec people do (inventing, manufacturing, hauling, etc), so why aren't they sufficient?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Frying Doom
#602 - 2012-09-04 09:23:15 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
The 3% is 3% of the populous, so lets get that out of the way. Eve is so much more than PvP if this was just PvP I would not be here, I prefer world of tanks for that. EvE is a lot of different players all within the same sandbox, not it is a sand box not a boxing ring. Making PVE better would make the game better, so please don't just throw around a catchy fraze like theme park, because I believe you can play paint ball at some theme parks.


Point is that even if you pursue PvE, most of these activities ultimately lead you to PvP by design as this is the focus of the game. whether your are trading, mining, building, researching, mission running or anything else for that matter, if you want to function at its highest level, you must expose yourself to the dangers of PvP and in many ways even these activities are competitive in their own right which while not combat is still a very firm form of PvP, by design.

There is very little you can do in this game without infringing on someone else's game play. Put up a PI base and your syphoning resources from a competitor, put products for sale, and your underselling a competitor, run Level 4 missions and by selling loot on the local market you are lowering the income of other mission runners, go out and mine, and you suck up asteroids another player would have profited for it. All these situations can be resolved through direct conflicts and very efficiently I might add.

So while you can pretend like you live in the comforts of a little bubble of safety and solo PvE content, you don't and anyone who has played this game for any length of time quickly discovers that while this "PvE" content can earn you some ISK and has its entertainment value, by and large the focus on the majority of the design and focus of this game is on the PvP element of this game so while it is more than PvP, its only so for the unmotivated and uncreative, people who effectively play in a sandbox and don't know what to do with it.

Any venture worth doing in Eve will put you in conflict with other players, at the heart of Eve is this design and it is the heart and soul of the game.

Well if you interpret PvP like that yeah I agree but as to " if you want to function at its highest level," so few people do the last snapshot only showed 5.51% of the snapshot are in the highest level so the rest of EvE needs catering to and in greater amounts.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#603 - 2012-09-04 09:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
betoli wrote:
You keep asking the same question despite the fact its been answered several times by several people....

The problem is that a lot of the current representatives do spend a fair bit of time in hisec, doing things which hisec people do (inventing, manufacturing, hauling, etc), so why aren't they sufficient?

Not sure oh your politics but pretend someone voted in a republican and your a Democrat would you like that if some of there policies were similar?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Signal11th
#604 - 2012-09-04 09:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Frying Doom wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
The 3% is 3% of the populous, so lets get that out of the way. Eve is so much more than PvP if this was just PvP I would not be here, I prefer world of tanks for that. EvE is a lot of different players all within the same sandbox, not it is a sand box not a boxing ring. Making PVE better would make the game better, so please don't just throw around a catchy fraze like theme park, because I believe you can play paint ball at some theme parks.


Point is that even if you pursue PvE, most of these activities ultimately lead you to PvP by design as this is the focus of the game. whether your are trading, mining, building, researching, mission running or anything else for that matter, if you want to function at its highest level, you must expose yourself to the dangers of PvP and in many ways even these activities are competitive in their own right which while not combat is still a very firm form of PvP, by design.

There is very little you can do in this game without infringing on someone else's game play. Put up a PI base and your syphoning resources from a competitor, put products for sale, and your underselling a competitor, run Level 4 missions and by selling loot on the local market you are lowering the income of other mission runners, go out and mine, and you suck up asteroids another player would have profited for it. All these situations can be resolved through direct conflicts and very efficiently I might add.

So while you can pretend like you live in the comforts of a little bubble of safety and solo PvE content, you don't and anyone who has played this game for any length of time quickly discovers that while this "PvE" content can earn you some ISK and has its entertainment value, by and large the focus on the majority of the design and focus of this game is on the PvP element of this game so while it is more than PvP, its only so for the unmotivated and uncreative, people who effectively play in a sandbox and don't know what to do with it.

Any venture worth doing in Eve will put you in conflict with other players, at the heart of Eve is this design and it is the heart and soul of the game.

Well if you interpret PvP like that yeah I agree but as to " if you want to function at its highest level," so few people do the last snapshot only showed 5.51% of the snapshot are in the highest level so the rest of EvE needs catering to and in greater amounts.



Unforunately numbers really have no relevance, people vote or they don't. Yes if it was only the 5% of top players that could vote then I see your point but everyone has the chance to vote.

Just because the only people who seem to vote are the 0.0 I fail to see why we need to waste and time or effort making sure the people who don't vote are catered for.

I fail to see your argument defending people who obviously don't care or in fact ,need defending at all.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#605 - 2012-09-04 09:40:19 UTC
Quote:
Well if you interpret PvP like that yeah I agree but as to " if you want to function at its highest level," so few people do the last snapshot only showed 5.51% of the snapshot are in the highest level so the rest of EvE needs catering to and in greater amounts.


Most people don't function at the highest level, but I believe they endeavor to and in video games, its not the end result that is important but the journey towards it. Watching my crew grow, expand, become stronger, break new territory in game play, that's what its all about and its what the design of the game caters to. The biggest whiners on this forum are people who have selected "their niche" and stopped growing (miners and pirates are good examples) , constant boring talk about asteroid yields, problems with prices or the lack of stupid targets to walk into their gate camps... these people have completely missed the concept of what this game is about and its why the design to them "needs change".

Its kind of like eating pepperoni pizza every single day of your life and going to the cook and saying "hey you need to improve this pepperoni pizza" rather than just ordering a ******* burger and experience something new. There is nothing wrong with the bloody Pizza! You just eat the same **** everyday of course your going to find something wrong with it eventually!

Point is, it is a PvP game, good Eve players are out there scraping their way to higher levels of play every day, taking full advantage of the sandbox and its many flavors and the ultimate result (by design) is the competition, risks and rewards for doing so. That is what makes the game amazing and that is what the developers should focus on.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#606 - 2012-09-04 09:42:56 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I think the best high sec representative players could want would be one who strives for CCP to help lower the entry level and intimidation factor of PvP. I am not talking about new players only. What about those who have been living in high sec for years and years and want to make a big splash on the PvP scene.

What are some of the IN GAME (forums and other out of game stuff does not help much because a very high amount of players never go to out of game things for EVE) mechanics and other stuff that lead players to PvP?? Most high sec players that would be inclined to PvP if they knew how mostly do missions. There really should be a ton of new missions added that have PvP fits, goals and tactics involved to complete.

There is a massive difference between PvP and PvE across the board and there should be missions to help bridge the gap. Make scaling missions that slowly shift from PvE environment to full blown mock PvP situations. Also don't have it just be level 4 mission but they should start at level 1.

Yes I know there is corps and alliances out there that would help, but what I am talking about is baby steps and going from lone hombre running missions all day to a player corp with expectations to a degree and PvP is a big step. There is nothing wrong with bridging that gap at all.

So instead of decrying high sec is evil and everything wrong with this game, lets talk about what can be done to open an avenue that is well structured for players to make the transition from PvE carebear to PvP monster.


think your missing the point some just dont want to pvp me im not really into it atm not that i wont pvp incorp ect just that i preffer to chill. but yeah lowering the bar so the 1 vs 1 aint so intimidateing or sp intensive would prolly help.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#607 - 2012-09-04 09:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
This thread is still as ridiculous as it is long.

Let's just put into perspective what the OP and other people are saying:

"Hi sec people don't vote because they aren't educated enough, there should be hi sec representation on the CSM"

I'll bite, but let's just have a look at something.


  • Firstly, there's a massive pop up on the screen as you log into the game telling you to vote, my memory is hazy but I'm sure it's not even one of those "one time only" pop ups (and if it is it shouldn't be).
  • Secondly you don't even have to get off your fat behind to vote, you click a link, then click a name.
  • Thirdly all the candidates are posting in a forum where they (hopefully) would respond to comments etc meaning you can actually speak to these people.
  • Fourth, you can actually kill these people (in game) and feel good about killing politicians WITHOUT going to jail (no offence to CSM members calling you politicians, thats pretty low).
  • Fifth, the election last over several days and there are no time limitations on when you can vote during those days.
  • Lastly the CSM currently engage with players and effect more change in the game than any real life government or elected body ever does.



If we were talking about a real life election, where the candidates are largely unresponsive to individual questions/comments, they don't really engage with the average voter, they don't really effect change individually, you aren't able to kill them (lol), the voting is at strict times only lasting a single day and you have to leave your house to vote then yes, I'd agree a lack of voter turnout is a lack of education.

I personally support all forms of political education starting at a young age not the indoctrinating kind, the kind that teaches kids the importance of voting, and why it's important we vote because others in the world can't. However this isn't the reason people don't vote here, it literally comes down to apathy.

The best way to get High Sec people to vote is to get a candidate that actually motivates them to vote. Barack Obama, regardless of your opinion of his policies,managed to get a lot of minorities with usually abysmal turnout to vote for him because he was "one of them" and had a message they wanted to hear.

Unlike the US Presidential elections you don't need to spend millions of isk to be a candidate. Fact is That High Sec players as a rule of thumb don't care and don't get involved. This isn't because the CSM is bias towards nullsec players in anyway, because it's not, it's because people don't care.

Finally the solution that a lot of the high Sec-ers are skirting around but not actually suggesting is a set "High Sec" seat at the CSM. This idea is patently ridiculous. What then? A set "female" seat? A set "US, EU, RUS, AU" seat? A set "Roleplayer" seat? Once you start making exceptions like that it's a very very slippery slope. That's not to say you shouldn't use it if the time calls for it, Northern Ireland for example has a similar system but that's because it's 60/40 Protestant to Catholic and because of the way the system worked the Catholics got nowhere near 40% of the seats in Parliament and even if they did it didn't change much. If High sec Players consisted of 60% of the votes they'd get 60% of the seats. Simple.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Frying Doom
#608 - 2012-09-04 09:54:41 UTC
Signal11th wrote:

Unforunately numbers really have no relevance, people vote or they don't. Yes if it was only the 5% of top players that could vote then I see your point but everyone has the chance to vote.

Just because the only people who seem to vote are the 0.0 I fail to see why we need to waste and time or effort making sure the people who don't vote are catered for.

A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#609 - 2012-09-04 09:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Quote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.


I haven't made this point yet but seriously, this isn't an education issue and I think that "people need to be educated" is just complete BS. 80% of the population simply doesn't give a **** who the CSM is, what they think or how that will affect the game. They play, as long as they like the game, when they stop liking it they move on. It isn't about education its simply about not giving a **** and why would you want a person who doesn't care to be represented, represented on the CSM? I mean who would a cannidate be for people who don't give a crap who the cannidate is or what his opinions about the game are?

The CSM is represented by the most passionate players in the game who care about its future, the people who are not represented are the ones who don't care about being represented.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Signal11th
#610 - 2012-09-04 10:00:11 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Signal11th wrote:

Unforunately numbers really have no relevance, people vote or they don't. Yes if it was only the 5% of top players that could vote then I see your point but everyone has the chance to vote.

Just because the only people who seem to vote are the 0.0 I fail to see why we need to waste and time or effort making sure the people who don't vote are catered for.

A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.



Not really it just screams that 80% can't be arsed, like myself, I've only voted in one CSM (the last one) and that was only because I was asked nicely to do it. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Now I don't need anymore education I've got enough already.

Not everyone sees the CSM as worthwhile or relevant (not me personally but alot of people I know), now these guys aren't going to vote for anyone because why vote for something you have no opinion on in the first place.

Just because something is there doesn't make it worthwhile or needed is the thought of more than a few people.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#611 - 2012-09-04 10:01:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

They have been strenuously educated, and they have strenuously decided to give no fucks.

Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.

Nope, it screams that 80% of the populous gives no fucks, despite being educated in why they should vote.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#612 - 2012-09-04 10:04:06 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I haven't made this point yet but seriously, this isn't an education issue and I think that "people need to be educated" is just complete BS. 80% of the population simply doesn't give a **** who the CSM is, what they think or how that will affect the game. They play, as long as they like the game, when they stop liking it they move on. It isn't about education its simply about not giving a **** and why would you want a person who doesn't care to be represented, represented on the CSM? I mean who would a cannidate be for people who don't give a crap who the cannidate is or what his opinions about the game are?

The CSM is represented by the most passionate players in the game who care about its future, the people who are not represented are the ones who don't care about being represented.

Whats so hard to understand about that?


Ditto to that, so very true. Sad, but true.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2012-09-04 10:04:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

They have been strenuously educated, and they have strenuously decided to give no fucks.

Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.

Nope, it screams that 80% of the populous gives no fucks, despite being educated in why they should vote.


Kryss Darkdust wrote:

The CSM is represented by the most passionate players in the game who care about its future, the people who are not represented are the ones who don't care about being represented.



This has always been my opinion. If they ignore the login banners and news bits that appear months before the actual voting then they simply don't care enough to have a valid opinion.
Frying Doom
#614 - 2012-09-04 10:05:01 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.


I haven't made this point yet but seriously, this isn't an education issue and I think that "people need to be educated" is just complete BS. 80% of the population simply doesn't give a **** who the CSM is, what they think or how that will affect the game. They play, as long as they like the game, when they stop liking it they move on. It isn't about education its simply about not giving a **** and why would you want a person who doesn't care to be represented, represented on the CSM? I mean who would a cannidate be for people who don't give a crap who the cannidate is or what his opinions about the game are?

The CSM is represented by the most passionate players in the game who care about its future, the people who are not represented are the ones who don't care about being represented.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

Nothing. Nor is it a reason for us not to attempt to educate more people into the nature of the CSM and why more people should vote.

Those 80% however do care about their game as the sub slump showed after incarna.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Signal11th
#615 - 2012-09-04 10:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Frying Doom wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.


I haven't made this point yet but seriously, this isn't an education issue and I think that "people need to be educated" is just complete BS. 80% of the population simply doesn't give a **** who the CSM is, what they think or how that will affect the game. They play, as long as they like the game, when they stop liking it they move on. It isn't about education its simply about not giving a **** and why would you want a person who doesn't care to be represented, represented on the CSM? I mean who would a cannidate be for people who don't give a crap who the cannidate is or what his opinions about the game are?

The CSM is represented by the most passionate players in the game who care about its future, the people who are not represented are the ones who don't care about being represented.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

Nothing. Nor is it a reason for us not to attempt to educate more people into the nature of the CSM and why more people should vote.

Those 80% however do care about their game as the sub slump showed after incarna.



If the 80% do care about the game as this slump you mention then they are obviously aware of how to fix it.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Frying Doom
#616 - 2012-09-04 10:06:01 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

They have been strenuously educated, and they have strenuously decided to give no fucks.

Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.

Nope, it screams that 80% of the populous gives no fucks, despite being educated in why they should vote.

So that just means we need to try harder. Enough obviously is not being done if we can not engage these people.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#617 - 2012-09-04 10:07:38 UTC
Quote:
Those 80% however do care about their game as the sub slump showed after incarna.


Eh no...

The people who cared where bitching out CCP on the forums, on their blogs, they participated in the in game riots and effectively spoke out about it, but they kept their accounts and they continued to play. People who quit, do not give a **** about this game, they simply moved on.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Frying Doom
#618 - 2012-09-04 10:07:40 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Signal11th wrote:

Unforunately numbers really have no relevance, people vote or they don't. Yes if it was only the 5% of top players that could vote then I see your point but everyone has the chance to vote.

Just because the only people who seem to vote are the 0.0 I fail to see why we need to waste and time or effort making sure the people who don't vote are catered for.

A chance to vote, exactly, those people that do not vote should receive further education as this election is part of a democracy and as one of the things that defines a democracy is the education of voters, why they should vote and when they should vote.

The fact that over 80% of the populous does not vote, screams that further education is needed.



Not really it just screams that 80% can't be arsed, like myself, I've only voted in one CSM (the last one) and that was only because I was asked nicely to do it. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Now I don't need anymore education I've got enough already.

Not everyone sees the CSM as worthwhile or relevant (not me personally but alot of people I know), now these guys aren't going to vote for anyone because why vote for something you have no opinion on in the first place.

Just because something is there doesn't make it worthwhile or needed is the thought of more than a few people.

So you think everyone should be asked nicely?

If you only took part because you were asked I feel that means you could do with more education as you surely will not be asked by someone every year.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2012-09-04 10:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Signal11th wrote:
If the 80% do care about the game as this slump you mention then they are obviously aware of how to fix it.


By not voting? oh wait...
Frying Doom
#620 - 2012-09-04 10:09:06 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
[


If the 80% do care about the game as this slump you mention then they are obviously aware of how to fix it.

Exactly and awareness comes from education.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!