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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

First post First post First post
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Caldari State
#1341 - 2012-09-03 09:02:29 UTC
terzslave wrote:
I want my damn boardroom......

Dude, your hand Shocked
James Vayne
Section 9 SFU
#1342 - 2012-09-03 09:08:59 UTC
I'm not entirely sure one can be disappointed with a product that has not yet been fully implemented. Captain's Quarters is not WiS. It's WiQ. Therefore, you should wait until WiS actually emerges before deriding it.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1343 - 2012-09-03 10:38:00 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


*I still haven't seen anyone explain exactly how a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitates communication any better than voice comms.


Some people can't use voice comms for a range of reasons.

And then there's immersion and RP, some concepts that certainly are alien to most of the people who oppose social content.

By the way, social content is not the ultimate reason for WiS, and can not be. It just is what we could have implemented faster and easier with minimal art resources, rather than wait 2 years to be offered the chance to either stand in our CQ idling or go die in a dungeon raid. And that, only in case that CCP and EVE can afford to develop it after losing subscribers all the way there by focusing in everything that negates growth.

"This is what we sell, we don't need to sell anything else" are famous last words of every coporation that once was succesful and then lost the ability to dare.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Ghazu
#1344 - 2012-09-03 10:41:55 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


*I still haven't seen anyone explain exactly how a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitates communication any better than voice comms.


Some people can't use voice comms for a range of reasons.

And then there's immersion and RP, some concepts that certainly are alien to most of the people who oppose social content.

By the way, social content is not the ultimate reason for WiS, and can not be. It just is what we could have implemented faster and easier with minimal art resources, rather than wait 2 years to be offered the chance to either stand in our CQ idling or go die in a dungeon raid. And that, only in case that CCP and EVE can afford to develop it after losing subscribers all the way there by focusing in everything that negates growth.

"This is what we sell, we don't need to sell anything else" are famous last words of every coporation that once was succesful and then lost the ability to dare.


Again with the quick and dirty i want to emote now.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

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#1345 - 2012-09-03 10:44:43 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Again with the quick and dirty i want to emote now.

Quick solution for PVP content, if someone emotes (/dance etc.) in a public area, they get flagged and can be killed by anyone P
Ghazu
#1346 - 2012-09-03 10:51:57 UTC
I hear this phrase getting tossed around EVE is more than spaceships, that's why we need wis.
But if there is no gameplay other than dudes emoting each other in various rooms, EVE is indeed a spaceships game.

Unless there are crazies out there spending more time emoting in guild wars 2 than pve or pvp ing.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Pipa Porto
#1347 - 2012-09-03 11:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


*I still haven't seen anyone explain exactly how a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitates communication any better than voice comms.


Some people can't use voice comms for a range of reasons.

And then there's immersion and RP, some concepts that certainly are alien to most of the people who oppose social content.

By the way, social content is not the ultimate reason for WiS, and can not be. It just is what we could have implemented faster and easier with minimal art resources, rather than wait 2 years to be offered the chance to either stand in our CQ idling or go die in a dungeon raid. And that, only in case that CCP and EVE can afford to develop it after losing subscribers all the way there by focusing in everything that negates growth.

"This is what we sell, we don't need to sell anything else" are famous last words of every coporation that once was succesful and then lost the ability to dare.


Ok, so how does a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitate communication any better than text chat? The communication is still going to be text or voice.

Immersion in what? Roleplaying as what? Social content is created by interacting with other people. The method with which you interact is simply a facilitator. So how do a bunch of Avatars in a room using voice or text facilitate interaction better than just voice or text?

By the way, if you want to immerse yourself into the character of a Pod pilot, you'd never leave your pod for fear of real, permanent assassination.


Now you're getting into something funny. EVE is growing. It took a massive hit after Incarna was released, then once they refocused on FIS content the bleeding stopped and EVE's sub numbers started growing again. Claiming that EVE is losing subs due to Incarna being released slowly is pants on head ludicrous (especially since it was initially announced as Ambulation in ~2006 and EVE's grown a heck of a lot since then). So no, the wait for WIS has not shown any signs of causing harm to CCP's bottom line.

"Throwing Good Money after Bad" are famous last actions of many corporations who decided that they should keep working on a project after the initial loss failed miserably. I think CCP has one more chance to do a major Incarna release. I don't think it matters how long that release takes (again, Ambulation was announced in 2006 or earlier) If it's successful, they'll get another chance. If it isn't, they won't keep throwing good money after bad.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1348 - 2012-09-03 11:37:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
(...)

Now you're getting into something funny. EVE is growing. It took a massive hit after Incarna was released, then once they refocused on FIS content the bleeding stopped and EVE's sub numbers started growing again. Claiming that EVE is losing subs due to Incarna being released slowly is pants on head ludicrous (especially since it was initially announced as Ambulation in ~2006 and EVE's grown a heck of a lot since then). So no, the wait for WIS has not shown any signs of causing harm to CCP's bottom line.

(...)


I am judging CCP's performance by their marketing to former customers. They sell fixes (what else could they sell?) and then offer rebates to subscription fee. And the rebates are growing over time so they are effectively devaluating the subscription to returning customers (=more subs, but less money).

That is not healthy, and meanwhile EVE keeps burning out customers as usual, and CCP is doing nothing to stop burning them out or actually find new customers.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Pipa Porto
#1349 - 2012-09-03 12:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
(...)

Now you're getting into something funny. EVE is growing. It took a massive hit after Incarna was released, then once they refocused on FIS content the bleeding stopped and EVE's sub numbers started growing again. Claiming that EVE is losing subs due to Incarna being released slowly is pants on head ludicrous (especially since it was initially announced as Ambulation in ~2006 and EVE's grown a heck of a lot since then). So no, the wait for WIS has not shown any signs of causing harm to CCP's bottom line.

(...)


I am judging CCP's performance by their marketing to former customers. They sell fixes (what else could they sell?) and then offer rebates to subscription fee. And the rebates are growing over time so they are effectively devaluating the subscription to returning customers (=more subs, but less money).

That is not healthy, and meanwhile EVE keeps burning out customers as usual, and CCP is doing nothing to stop burning them out or actually find new customers.


So the steadily increasing subcount since Crucible is what... failure? (Unless you're saying that quitting gets you a permanent price reduction on resubbing, in which case, where's the cancel button.)

And since CCP's habit of Fearlessly going after Jesus Features (WIS, for instance) instead of fixing things is a big part of why long time players (the players likely to return ever) leave, pointing out that they're fixing things is a great strategy.

So, again, EVE's subscription count is growing, meaning that CCP is recruiting new or old players to the game faster than people are quitting.



And since this isn't a thread about CCP's business model, [The rest of the post you didn't have a reply to].

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1350 - 2012-09-03 23:50:52 UTC
Thread has been cleaned of more off topic, troll and flamebait posts. Please stick to the topic at hand in future and post sensibly or I will have no choice but to lock this thread, thank you - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1351 - 2012-09-04 01:44:58 UTC
Do we know the subscription numbers? How? We know the number online, from http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility. Looking at that and online count has been fairly level for the last year.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Pipa Porto
#1352 - 2012-09-04 07:44:33 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Do we know the subscription numbers? How? We know the number online, from http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility. Looking at that and online count has been fairly level for the last year.


http://mmodata.blogspot.com/search/label/Accuracy%20and%20abbreviations

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1353 - 2012-09-04 08:24:32 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Do we know the subscription numbers? How? We know the number online, from http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility. Looking at that and online count has been fairly level for the last year.


Well, we can't access hard data as that's a need-to-know secret in every corporation. We can just correlate numbers online with active subscriptions; those numbers are in a comfort zone around 40,000 and have been there since Crucible.

it's hard to tell wether WiS could improve the subscription numbers, but we can figure that preaching to the choir is not going to make the numbers grow. Giving mote of the same to the same old bunch is not goign to draw in new recruits.

CCP is trying hard to retain new players as they've noticed that the game burns out them very fast -and we can infer that they're not replenishing as fast as usual. I mean, before the last changes to NPE, 60% of the new players didn't even finished the tutorial.

Can you figure this? EVE is a harsh, uninviting game, and yet for most of its life the NPE was a revolving door where 2/3 of people left before as much as playing the game for 10 hours. That didn't matter in the past but nwo they're taking it seriously.

And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked

You guess what they ask at this point?

"Why the hell did they bother to make avatars if they end up doing nothing in an empty room?"

In the NPE before the last changes, this was the single point in the NPE where more people left the tutorial. They didn't even undocked for the first time. Enter that wonderful date that looks too good to be true until you go her home and meet her crazy mother, their 20 cats and a pile of rotten garbage on the doorway. Then she invites you to go to her basement and play some spreadsheets game she haves there, running on a 10 year old computer. Ask the neighbors and they tell you that they've got plans to clean up the mess in a couple of years...

At this point, half of all people who didn't finshed the NPE would leave. Meaning that one third of those precious dwindling new customers will not even undock after crashing against the CQ.

Once they undock the new tutorial apparently is awesome (haven't tried it but people talks favorably of it), but currently the lack of WiS content is costing CCP one third of its trial accounts.

i wonder how many of them would stay if the CQ gently invited them to try the space side of the game. Maybe a friendly NPC asking them to please, take a shuttle and deliver a message to the next station. As a reward, they introduce to you AURA, an holographic cybergirl who's going to teach you how to fly ships and actually play the game. Please, follow her to the bay where your brand new noobship awaits...

Just saying. Blink

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1354 - 2012-09-04 08:35:15 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Supposedly there is a "Team Avatar" (5 people) working on something, and a Dev blog about it that is finished, but its publishing got delayed by the UI mess.

The few Dev comments we have gotten is it will involve cooperative game play in a hostile environment. Something like we saw in one of the trailers with people in space suits exploring ruins. I presume part of the "cooperative" part is having protection so your ship does not get stolen while you are walking about.


This is still en-route and I'm currently trying to unclog the pipes that are holding the dev blog up. It's been delayed for so long now I'm going to update the pictures on it to something that's more representative of the current state of things!

You're correct though the gameplay we've been prototyping is based around cooperative gameplay in a hazardous environment. You'd be cooperating both in space and in the structure you were all walking around in though and there would still be the potential for conflict with other people in the structures you are exploring.

We're pretty excited about what we've come up with internally.


I know this is an older post, but this sounds amazing. I really hope that I'm not reading into this too much and this means "away mission" type gameplay of the typical scifi fare. Archaeology, diplomacy (at the point of a gun ofcourse :P), mystery and problem solving.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!

Ghazu
#1355 - 2012-09-04 08:59:56 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Do we know the subscription numbers? How? We know the number online, from http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility. Looking at that and online count has been fairly level for the last year.


Well, we can't access hard data as that's a need-to-know secret in every corporation. We can just correlate numbers online with active subscriptions; those numbers are in a comfort zone around 40,000 and have been there since Crucible.

it's hard to tell wether WiS could improve the subscription numbers, but we can figure that preaching to the choir is not going to make the numbers grow. Giving mote of the same to the same old bunch is not goign to draw in new recruits.

CCP is trying hard to retain new players as they've noticed that the game burns out them very fast -and we can infer that they're not replenishing as fast as usual. I mean, before the last changes to NPE, 60% of the new players didn't even finished the tutorial.

Can you figure this? EVE is a harsh, uninviting game, and yet for most of its life the NPE was a revolving door where 2/3 of people left before as much as playing the game for 10 hours. That didn't matter in the past but nwo they're taking it seriously.

And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked

You guess what they ask at this point?

"Why the hell did they bother to make avatars if they end up doing nothing in an empty room?"

In the NPE before the last changes, this was the single point in the NPE where more people left the tutorial. They didn't even undocked for the first time. Enter that wonderful date that looks too good to be true until you go her home and meet her crazy mother, their 20 cats and a pile of rotten garbage on the doorway. Then she invites you to go to her basement and play some spreadsheets game she haves there, running on a 10 year old computer. Ask the neighbors and they tell you that they've got plans to clean up the mess in a couple of years...

At this point, half of all people who didn't finshed the NPE would leave. Meaning that one third of those precious dwindling new customers will not even undock after crashing against the CQ.

Once they undock the new tutorial apparently is awesome (haven't tried it but people talks favorably of it), but currently the lack of WiS content is costing CCP one third of its trial accounts.

i wonder how many of them would stay if the CQ gently invited them to try the space side of the game. Maybe a friendly NPC asking them to please, take a shuttle and deliver a message to the next station. As a reward, they introduce to you AURA, an holographic cybergirl who's going to teach you how to fly ships and actually play the game. Please, follow her to the bay where your brand new noobship awaits...

Just saying. Blink

Indeed it is absolutely implausible that new players would be more interested in undocking and playing the game than whatever you think they want to do.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Pipa Porto
#1356 - 2012-09-04 09:04:37 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Ghazu
#1357 - 2012-09-04 09:08:19 UTC
Please, do you have anything constructive to say? TA is working on it, what do you want them to do, overtime everyday? cut summer vacation? Any suggestions?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1358 - 2012-09-04 09:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *SNIP*


EDIT: Do not make that sort of comparison again - ISD Type40.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Pipa Porto
#1359 - 2012-09-04 10:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *snip*...


Where did I say "remove CQ?" That's right, I didn't say that. Good try though.

Where did I say "don't work on WIS content again?" That's right, I didn't say that. Good try though.


EDIT: Pardon the intrusion, just had to edit that quote - ISD Type40.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1360 - 2012-09-04 10:14:17 UTC
Jesus christ you two, get a room or something.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016