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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

First post First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1361 - 2012-09-04 10:14:38 UTC
A real one.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ghazu
#1362 - 2012-09-04 11:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *snip*...


Please provide citation where the NPE stats indicate that the new players are leaving right after they enter CQ and before they undock.



EDIT: Pardon the intrusion, just had to edit that quote - ISD Type40.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Irya Boone
The Scope
#1363 - 2012-09-04 11:41:45 UTC
DAMNNNNN there is No GM in this forum ? to lock this thread , we got an official answer of ccp, discussion closed.

So let this thread RIP for BoB sake.

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1364 - 2012-09-04 12:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *snip*...


Please provide citation where the NPE stats indicate that the new players are leaving right after they enter CQ and before they undock.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.



EDIT: Again, pardon the intrusion, just editing a quote - ISD Type40.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#1365 - 2012-09-04 13:02:40 UTC
OMG the avatar exploration gameplay is on the test server Big smile
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1366 - 2012-09-04 13:11:08 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
OMG the avatar exploration gameplay is on the test server Big smile


Yeah, right by the Barbie Princess costumes.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#1367 - 2012-09-04 13:21:57 UTC
I can be a princess? omg omg omg
Ghazu
#1368 - 2012-09-04 13:58:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *snip*..


Please provide citation where the NPE stats indicate that the new players are leaving right after they enter CQ and before they undock.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.

Oh that, you are looking too much into it. It could be that the new player just went through a long process of getting started. Then spent a good chunk deciding a character name, race, bloodline, customizing the avatar and etc. Then they got into the CQ and got done with that part so at this point, like maybe 2 hours in including the time spent installing/patching/signing up it is just a natural spot to "have a break" to go do something before they continue with the space segment at a later time.

This is from the devblog
"As you can see, the current tutorial string has some good spots (most notably fitting and the bit where you're blowing things up), and some bad spots (most notably the bit right at the very start where we try to teach the skill queue before you've even undocked). Data like this gave us a pretty good sense of where our trouble spots lay."

The purpose of the NPE is to help ease players into the complexities of EVE, and where avatars and CQ fit in that I just don't see. Hell, they'd be better off watching videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdoR7mhyWe8&feature=related. Also is it so absurd to assume that the new player is more interested in finding out how things work in EVE than be "gee I really don't feel connected to my character's avatar". You may be projecting too much of your own experience into your idealization of the "new player".


EDIT: Just had to edit one of those quotes - ISD Type40.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1369 - 2012-09-04 15:21:19 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.

Oh that, you are looking too much into it. It could be that the new player just went through a long process of getting started. Then spent a good chunk deciding a character name, race, bloodline, customizing the avatar and etc. Then they got into the CQ and got done with that part so at this point, like maybe 2 hours in including the time spent installing/patching/signing up it is just a natural spot to "have a break" to go do something before they continue with the space segment at a later time.

This is from the devblog
"As you can see, the current tutorial string has some good spots (most notably fitting and the bit where you're blowing things up), and some bad spots (most notably the bit right at the very start where we try to teach the skill queue before you've even undocked). Data like this gave us a pretty good sense of where our trouble spots lay."

The purpose of the NPE is to help ease players into the complexities of EVE, and where avatars and CQ fit in that I just don't see. Hell, they'd be better off watching videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdoR7mhyWe8&feature=related. Also is it so absurd to assume that the new player is more interested in finding out how things work in EVE than be "gee I really don't feel connected to my character's avatar". You may be projecting too much of your own experience into your idealization of the "new player".


Try harder, the graph shows at what point the players abandoned the game, not when they made a coffee break.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1370 - 2012-09-04 15:50:12 UTC
Still useless feature and no amount of emote,pink shirts and forum drama will fix that.

Kill this thread it is turning in a pile of ....

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Serena Serene
Heretic University
#1371 - 2012-09-04 15:58:20 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.

[stuff]


Try harder, the graph shows at what point the players abandoned the game, not when they made a coffee break.


Where's that graph from? To me the graph and its title seem to indicate it shows when people quit the tutorial, not the game.
So they got fed up with little windows trying to explain things and started playing around instead.
But I might miss the context this graph was shown in.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1372 - 2012-09-04 16:03:41 UTC
Serena Serene wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.

[stuff]


Try harder, the graph shows at what point the players abandoned the game, not when they made a coffee break.


Where's that graph from? To me the graph and its title seem to indicate it shows when people quit the tutorial, not the game.
So they got fed up with little windows trying to explain things and started playing around instead.
But I might miss the context this graph was shown in.


Here's the source:

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73075

And they clearly speak of people who left the game without even finishing the tutorial.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1373 - 2012-09-04 17:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: oldbutfeelingyoung
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
wow i have a problem here

i like the possible added gameplay ,WIS can do and the social aspect of it

i am between camps here ,don,t kill me in the crossfire


about the misreading ,yes i understood you ,but i wanted to raise some sort of discussion

Some like the social part of what WIS can bring ,others want added gameplay
Both are possible at the same time
WIS could add some sort of in station PvP to corps at war,and social stuff for those who are not at war
WIS could add gameplay in space ,according to some ideas Team Avatar had(still love to see some high res vid of it)and have social stuff at the same time

With WIS you can go all directions added gameplay ,some extra pvp and the /emotes as a side affect of it



So, and this is the big issue in this thread, is it worth releasing a new Incarna expansion that just has the "social aspect."*

Because that's where this argument started. Now Ghazu's argumentative style might not be the best at starting constructive dialogue (it's part of the WI. charm), but nobody's actually explained how "emoting at each other" facilitates communication better than voice comms which is, I think, Ghazu's point.

My answer is no. In part because CCP isn't going to give Incarna a third chance if number two flops like number one, and another featureless room (even if it's got other people in it) is an almost guaranteed flop. In part because Incarna could be so much better than Multiplayer CQ and trying to get Multiplayer CQ on it's own isn't likely to help in getting actual consequential gameplay going (I would bet that CCP ends up using a different engine than the CQ engine for combat stuff).

*I still haven't seen anyone explain exactly how a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitates communication any better than voice comms.



The promises they made before Incarna was only socialising and almost everybody liked it.
After incarna ,well they have to deliver more, i guess.

Ghazu and me had a brief moment of real discussion and i hope we will have more of that

Never talked about communication myself ,but only about possibilitys WIS has for the socializer and gamer

Comms will always be text or voice and teamspeak

No avatar will change that ,but it could change a lot for the better in other aerias

But since TA is silenced and i am not only talking about the lost blog ,this discussion is useless

i give up on this one, bye and no i am not leaving EvE bc i happen to like this game
with or without a possible great addition

R.S.I2014

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1374 - 2012-09-04 19:09:25 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:

The promises they made before Incarna was only socialising and almost everybody liked it.
After incarna ,well they have to deliver more, i guess.
.....

Actually what I remember was:
We would be able to set up establishments.
In these establishments would be socializing, gambling, games like Slay, and the selling and buying of contraband items.
Now lets say you put these contraband items in your ship and undocked. At the moment the NPCs might catch you. CCP wanted to turn that over to the players. They could scan your ship, and upon seeing contraband, give you the option of paying a "fine" or having your ship marked as Criminal, Free for All to Shoot.

You may ask why buying contraband would require walking as part of the game mechanic. Its for the same reason as our ships must first warp to a gate before jumping: Time. The time between buying the contraband and being able to undock gives time for others to get ready for you. For example, your "friendly" supplier can inform his friends in space that you are coming. The fact you cannot undock immediately gives them time to get into position.

Another reason to have buying of contraband occur with avatars is so other players in the establishment where you made the transaction can observe it, perhaps with devices they previously planted in the area. Devices you could find if you have the right skills and devices. To have this cat and mouse game of catching illegal acts, we need a game space for it to occur in.

There is also one reason to have just socializing areas before any meaningful gameplay: seeing if multi-avatar areas can be rendered on all the different hardware we players use. This is the heat and hardware issue. If we get multiple avatars on the screen at once, what works? What breaks? We want it to work before we get meaningful gameplay, and that means testing. Sisi does not cover sufficient people, we need it on TQ.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1375 - 2012-09-04 22:31:38 UTC
Oh, looks like an "offer" from Jita local, but more words in it. Lol

Pipa Porto
#1376 - 2012-09-04 22:37:12 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Never talked about communication myself ,but only about possibilitys WIS has for the socializer and gamer

Comms will always be text or voice and teamspeak

No avatar will change that ,but it could change a lot for the better in other aerias


Like what?


Again, we're all on board with knifing each other in the corridors, exploring things, and other examples of consequential gameplay.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Ghazu
#1377 - 2012-09-05 01:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghazu
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Serena Serene wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.

[stuff]


Try harder, the graph shows at what point the players abandoned the game, not when they made a coffee break.


Where's that graph from? To me the graph and its title seem to indicate it shows when people quit the tutorial, not the game.
So they got fed up with little windows trying to explain things and started playing around instead.
But I might miss the context this graph was shown in.


Here's the source:

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73075

And they clearly speak of people who left the game without even finishing the tutorial.


Did you even read the whole devblog or browse it's discussion thread? Avatars is an non-issue.
I think it's more of a "oh christ this is so complicated back to insta-gratification games wow or cod" as opposed to "oh hell no i am out of here if i can't emote with a bunch of dudes?".
Also, it's easy to get a nice looking spike on the graph when you are frigging forced to load cq by default.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1378 - 2012-09-05 06:48:33 UTC
No you see new players don't want things to do, they just want other players to be in the same gameplay-vacuum establishment as themselves so they can text chat to each other whilst trying on monocles and drinking pretend-beer.

Games don't need gameplay, that's just silly.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#1379 - 2012-09-05 07:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And yet, what's the first experience a player gets form EVE? Avatar creation. They are shocked an awed and shake in excitement after meeting the CC and entering the CQ. They just can't dream of what kind of wonders does the game offer to them, povided how incredibly amazing is their first experience.

And then they are told to become a stock looking ship and stay like that until 2015 at least. Shocked


Easy solution: Don't start new players in CQ.

Something being so terrible that it drives new players from the game (as you claim) is not a reason to double down on the terribleness.


I don't claim, i just read the NPE stats and notice where is the spike in people leaving: right after they enter CQ and before they undock.

As for removing CQ, that would make sense, but also would be quite an statement for a company that has chosen to not speak on an issue.

As you say, they should agree that they spent a lot of bad money and call it a waste, remove the CQ altogether (plus the NEx store) and keep doing what they've been doing: a spaceship game with no place for people.

Of course, that would completely remove any chance of them being taken seriously if they ever wanted to work on WiS again, but then, a bad certainty is better than the ongoing *snip*...


Please provide citation where the NPE stats indicate that the new players are leaving right after they enter CQ and before they undock.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63099/1/00_tutorial_quit_graph.png

Notice the big spike after CQ and prior to skill queueing, then a second big spike right before the pilot certification course.


Wow. That is really dumb analysis. You're obviously trying to twists the results to suit yourself. The two spikes are during the "Amar/Gallente Skills" section and the "Pilot certification course" so obviously (by your logic) we must quickly remove all skills and spaceships from the game to help improve player retention.

Lol.


EDIT: Beg pardon, just had to edit that quote - ISD Type40.
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1380 - 2012-09-05 08:45:27 UTC
This thread has been moderated. I would like to ask people to remain decent when posting on these forums. No one expects everyone to get along, it wouldn't be EVE otherwise, but what will not be tolerated is comparisons of company actions to Holocaust atrocities.

Keeping these forums clean and reasonable is not an easy task at times, but we do our best. Please help us by being a little less rash with your posting content, and a little more respectful of your fellow forum users. Keep things decent and we will have a set of forums that we can all be proud of, thank you - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]