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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

First post First post First post
Author
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1321 - 2012-09-02 17:35:39 UTC
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1322 - 2012-09-02 17:50:38 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Your 'drone clones' suggestion is just a way to remove any risk from WiS gameplay by using disposable cheap bodies whilst still gaining all the rewards for exploration.


Gear is still risked. Plus maybe you have to sit undefended back in your ship. So you can still be podded while in the sites. Just not the you in the site, that's a throwaway clone. gear costs isk. I think the risk is still justifiable.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1323 - 2012-09-02 18:00:32 UTC
As anyone who plays the market knows, there is risk in eve other than having stuff blown up. How about looking at risk in Wis play other than death?
Two examples
Buying contraband "off the grid", getting caught and fined.
Gambling.

In buying contraband, you may ask why it requires avatars walking about. For the same reason we have ships that got travel somewhere before they arrive: Time. Specifically, travel time is a game mechanic that adds risk.

The time it takes to get from the point of purchase of your illegal item to your ship is time for other players to figure out what you are up to and get ready for you when you undock. Travel time between purchase and getting out of the station adds risk.

For gambling, I think it would be better to walk along the promenade, looking at the gaming parlors, seeing who's where and whats available, rather than yet another spreadsheet.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1324 - 2012-09-02 18:17:38 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
although i like every good input on the WIS subject ,i think you just have to stop talking and biomass all your characters and just leave
If EvE is no fun for you ,anything WIS related will not change that


There is plenty of time to give up from EVE, and until then i will stand by my guns.

By the way, you talk about good input on WiS... you could try and provide some, as i am seriously missing that you suggest something for a change. For good or bad, i've started threads, have suggested changes to the CC, have sugested possible social content and how it could interwine with FiS content, i've stated that dungeon raiding should not be the only way to leave CQ and have provided a well-thought way to apply the JC concept for WiS within the EVE lore so capsuleers can die in WiS without permadeath nor game magic. In the process, by the way, my characters have gathered some 600 likes to this kind of ideas.

So please, enlighten us, what have you done for WiS?



Yeah you are right you don,t see me so often in a WIS thread

R.S.I2014

Vim
Kicked.
Shadow Cartel
#1325 - 2012-09-02 18:18:10 UTC
Know two women that said in a nutshell 'no avatar turned me away from eve' and one that said she wanted 'Achivements' because she didnt realy know what to do =)

'You've earned Achivement: Destroyer of Roids!'
...dear lord, but i suppose it would help some finding their way with achivement paths ^^



Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1326 - 2012-09-02 18:45:03 UTC
Vim wrote:
Know two women that said in a nutshell 'no avatar turned me away from eve'

So they came back when Incarna was released, right?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1327 - 2012-09-02 18:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
You see, in station enviroment, you could give away completed last mission in epic arc, and agent, on behalf of state, could give you shiny medal, pinning it to your navy uniform. Decorations issued by NPC corporations and states, why we ,the carebears, can't have it in a form of cutscene? Every decoration should be awarded officially in station enviroment. Cool
Pipa Porto
#1328 - 2012-09-02 19:11:32 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
it is what you think is or is not worth Dev time

You and Ghazu or any other Mittens tool can come up with the same boring routine ,but you are not gonna change the minds of those who want some social structure in EvE

that said ,i am aware that WIS has the potential for removing the only true safe place in EvE ,but only for those who are wardecced and are red for some reason in high so docking games is something from the past
In low and 0.0 it must be easier to shoot someone ,but still within some minor rules ,so at least you have a change to open that keyless door.
So yes in some cases some aggresion in station could be better for EvE.

So for those who don,t want aggression in station ,live by the rules and for those who don,t want social ,sad for you



So now you're going with "well, that's just your opinion, so shut up?" Well, of course it's my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying it, would I? That said, I've explained why I hold that opinion, and what it would take to change my mind (some evidence that multiplayer CQ* would provide some new consequential gameplay). You've decided to retort "well, that's just your opinion," which is a terrible retort because, unless you can show some reason for your own exceptionalism, it applies to your own opinions with equal force.

If adding multiplayer CQ allowed people to shank each other in stations, I would be all for that. I think one of the first posts I made in this thread mentioned that a room with 2 people in it was unacceptable due to lack of consequential gameplay, but a room with 2 people and a knife was perfectly fine, due to that knife providing opportunities for consequential gameplay whether it's used every time or not.

But that's not what's been proposed by the Multiplayer CQ guys. They keep insisting that multiple avatars in one room is a worthy goal in its own right, without the knife or gun that makes that provides the consequential gameplay. In fact, I think this might be the first time you've mentioned aggression in stations.

Yet again, you've failed to show anything to suggest that adding a multi user CQ does anything to encourage socialization. Socialization is talking to other players. Right now, I can talk to any player I want using EVE Voice or Text chat. Multiplayer CQs mean you can talk to only those players you currently happen to share a station with using that tool. Or are you going to claim that a phone call isn't a example of socializing (in which case, I've got an army of teen girls and psychologists who'll tell you that you're full of it).

tl;dr, you're changing your argument to agree with me. Then yelling at me for disagreeing with you. Good job.


*Again, the Space Dungeons Team Avatar's working on look awesome, so I don't think we're disagreeing about those.




yes indeed WIS is about opinions right now

or you like it or you don,t

You and your ghazu friend are trying a bit to hard to press on your opinion on WIS on the wislovers


You want to discuss fine ,stop with the barbie and emoting and we discuss WIS



You didn't actually read what I posted, did you?

And no, a dichotomy between [Like WIS whatever its form] and [Dislike WIS] is false.

Try reading what I actually wrote. Especially some of the lines in italics.

I'll summarize in case reading hurts. I like the idea of WIS. I like the idea of Avatar Gameplay. I was excited about Incarna because I though it would have some Gameplay in it. Instead it had CQ, which is a horrible single player experience void of any consequential gameplay (you can sit down, so technically that's gameplay).

In this thread, we've seen two major factions. People who want multiplayer CQ as soon as possible and people who want CCP to wait until they can deliver actual, consequential gameplay (in part because there's a good chance that if the next Incarna release is a flop, Incarna as a project will be dead. Corporations don't get to repeatedly pursue failed ideas in public very often).

A Multiplayer CQ (which is what I was arguing against) is the same gameplay void that the current CQ is but with other people's avatars in it.

As soon as you proposed including some combat in the next Incarna release, you're talking about consequential gameplay, which takes you right out of the Multiplayer CQ proposals that make up the bulk of this argument, and puts you right into the second camp.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1329 - 2012-09-02 20:18:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
it is what you think is or is not worth Dev time

You and Ghazu or any other Mittens tool can come up with the same boring routine ,but you are not gonna change the minds of those who want some social structure in EvE

that said ,i am aware that WIS has the potential for removing the only true safe place in EvE ,but only for those who are wardecced and are red for some reason in high so docking games is something from the past
In low and 0.0 it must be easier to shoot someone ,but still within some minor rules ,so at least you have a change to open that keyless door.
So yes in some cases some aggresion in station could be better for EvE.

So for those who don,t want aggression in station ,live by the rules and for those who don,t want social ,sad for you



So now you're going with "well, that's just your opinion, so shut up?" Well, of course it's my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying it, would I? That said, I've explained why I hold that opinion, and what it would take to change my mind (some evidence that multiplayer CQ* would provide some new consequential gameplay). You've decided to retort "well, that's just your opinion," which is a terrible retort because, unless you can show some reason for your own exceptionalism, it applies to your own opinions with equal force.

If adding multiplayer CQ allowed people to shank each other in stations, I would be all for that. I think one of the first posts I made in this thread mentioned that a room with 2 people in it was unacceptable due to lack of consequential gameplay, but a room with 2 people and a knife was perfectly fine, due to that knife providing opportunities for consequential gameplay whether it's used every time or not.

But that's not what's been proposed by the Multiplayer CQ guys. They keep insisting that multiple avatars in one room is a worthy goal in its own right, without the knife or gun that makes that provides the consequential gameplay. In fact, I think this might be the first time you've mentioned aggression in stations.

Yet again, you've failed to show anything to suggest that adding a multi user CQ does anything to encourage socialization. Socialization is talking to other players. Right now, I can talk to any player I want using EVE Voice or Text chat. Multiplayer CQs mean you can talk to only those players you currently happen to share a station with using that tool. Or are you going to claim that a phone call isn't a example of socializing (in which case, I've got an army of teen girls and psychologists who'll tell you that you're full of it).

tl;dr, you're changing your argument to agree with me. Then yelling at me for disagreeing with you. Good job.


*Again, the Space Dungeons Team Avatar's working on look awesome, so I don't think we're disagreeing about those.




yes indeed WIS is about opinions right now

or you like it or you don,t

You and your ghazu friend are trying a bit to hard to press on your opinion on WIS on the wislovers


You want to discuss fine ,stop with the barbie and emoting and we discuss WIS



You didn't actually read what I posted, did you?

And no, a dichotomy between [Like WIS whatever its form] and [Dislike WIS] is false.

Try reading what I actually wrote. Especially some of the lines in italics.

I'll summarize in case reading hurts. I like the idea of WIS. I like the idea of Avatar Gameplay. I was excited about Incarna because I though it would have some Gameplay in it. Instead it had CQ, which is a horrible single player experience void of any consequential gameplay (you can sit down, so technically that's gameplay).

In this thread, we've seen two major factions. People who want multiplayer CQ as soon as possible and people who want CCP to wait until they can deliver actual, consequential gameplay (in part because there's a good chance that if the next Incarna release is a flop, Incarna as a project will be dead. Corporations don't get to repeatedly pursue failed ideas in public very often).

A Multiplayer CQ (which is what I was arguing against) is the same gameplay void that the current CQ is but with other people's avatars in it.

As soon as you proposed including some combat in the next Incarna release, you're talking about consequential gameplay, which takes you right out of the Multiplayer CQ proposals that make up the bulk of this argument, and puts you right into the second camp.



wow i have a problem here

i like the possible added gameplay ,WIS can do and the social aspect of it

i am between camps here ,don,t kill me in the crossfire


about the misreading ,yes i understood you ,but i wanted to raise some sort of discussion

Some like the social part of what WIS can bring ,others want added gameplay
Both are possible at the same time
WIS could add some sort of in station PvP to corps at war,and social stuff for those who are not at war
WIS could add gameplay in space ,according to some ideas Team Avatar had(still love to see some high res vid of it)and have social stuff at the same time

With WIS you can go all directions added gameplay ,some extra pvp and the /emotes as a side affect of it

R.S.I2014

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1330 - 2012-09-02 20:48:08 UTC
Ooh a fresh horse to beat...hey wait, this one has maggots.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Ghazu
#1331 - 2012-09-03 00:40:14 UTC
Raya Chandragupta wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
but instead going to a pretend-bar dressed in our pretend-monocles to drink our pretend-beer and watch our pretend-exotic dancers.


I agree. What a horrible way to spend time on Eve Online that would be. It lacks all the elegance, depth and joy of pressing F1 repeatedly while watching lots of colored little squares moving around in extreme slow motion.

You talking about mining? If fleets are pressing F1 repeatedly why do we bother with ship doctrines, voice coms and FCs? Tell me about the intricacies and elegance of dudes emoting each other in a pretend-bar. Please come join WI, our corp don't recruitment scam and lead some fleets and maybe we'd welp less.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Ghazu
#1332 - 2012-09-03 02:04:55 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

So you did read that they have a price so there is a risk in using them, thus they don't remove risk at all...


Really, didn't I hear new player this and new player that and oh how they need avatars, and you just pulled that 1 billion figure out your butte. Tell me how is a new player going participate with 1 billion clones?
Why not just use the regular jump clones where you have to strategically decide where you want it to be, that you either have to deal with the 24hr cooldown or go in hot with whatever clone you are in right now and deal with the consequences when it is destroyed.

Why don't we go straight to the point and explain what your intention is with this convuluted drone clone stuff?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#1333 - 2012-09-03 04:49:55 UTC
Personally my preference is for the more action orientated style of exploration game play for Incarna, rather than just social areas.

Not that I have anything against those who want those areas (personally I think they will be important when it comes to connecting EVE and Dust players).

Are there any MMOs out there that have good examples of social gameplay?
Ghazu
#1334 - 2012-09-03 05:01:41 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Personally my preference is for the more action orientated style of exploration game play for Incarna, rather than just social areas.

Not that I have anything against those who want those areas (personally I think they will be important when it comes to connecting EVE and Dust players).

Are there any MMOs out there that have good examples of social gameplay?


http://www.entropiauniverse.com/

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#1335 - 2012-09-03 05:16:04 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
Personally my preference is for the more action orientated style of exploration game play for Incarna, rather than just social areas.

Not that I have anything against those who want those areas (personally I think they will be important when it comes to connecting EVE and Dust players).

Are there any MMOs out there that have good examples of social gameplay?


http://www.entropiauniverse.com/


I've played Entropia universe. It's an interesting game (real money trading aside) where there are players that set up shops in malls, spruik their crafted goods. Which is what Incarna was originally going to be about. It is worth pointing out that there are few locations in the game that players congregate to socialize. One location is known as sweat camp where there is a player run radio station is based. Guild owned apartments where were player groups seemed to be more likely to congregate.

This could possibly be an argument for being able to have interiors for our POS's

Another one that I think is interesting is Face of Mankind. Even though the game itself is pretty basic, you have players running the different factions, lots of interesting politics, there in-game player run classes for new recruits, regular patrols of game areas. It's really fascinating. It almost seems like the basic features of the game has encouraged players to come up with their own way of playing the game by creating their own stuff to do.

The lesson I would take from that game is that you don't necessarily want to create interior spaces with too much pre-made content. Leave space for players to create their own uses.

Just thinking aloud
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1336 - 2012-09-03 05:22:18 UTC
to CCP; had you waited on deploying NEX, until all of WiS was completed and released you would not have bombed out so badly. Also the monocle should not have been released with the first nex store deployment but about a year after.

what id like to see in WiS iterations,

Dust should be tied into WiS, directly... eve players should literally meet dust players face to face in stations.

I'd like to be able to open a bar/casino in a station and reap passive income from it as well as provide a meaningful service to the community.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#1337 - 2012-09-03 05:32:44 UTC
I forgot to add.

I don't think it's possible to design an area and see "this area is for social gameplay" and expect players to come running, players will socialize where and how they want to. That doesn't mean that it's not possible to design station interiors where players choose to socialise, it's just that I think there is more involved more than creating a space and putting a bar sign over it.

In my opinion, if you want to players to socialise in stations, there needs to be a need for them to socialise in stations (rather than in space, on teamspeak, in local or whatever). The idea of using stations to facilitate the trade of boosters and other shady types of gameplay, including being able to gamble ships over the outcomes of games like Slay, was an idea that I felt was heading down this track.

I wonder if Team Avatar will be doing any prototyping down this direction.
Ghazu
#1338 - 2012-09-03 05:40:35 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
Personally my preference is for the more action orientated style of exploration game play for Incarna, rather than just social areas.

Not that I have anything against those who want those areas (personally I think they will be important when it comes to connecting EVE and Dust players).

Are there any MMOs out there that have good examples of social gameplay?


http://www.entropiauniverse.com/


I've played Entropia universe. It's an interesting game (real money trading aside) where there are players that set up shops in malls, spruik their crafted goods. Which is what Incarna was originally going to be about. It is worth pointing out that there are few locations in the game that players congregate to socialize. One location is known as sweat camp where there is a player run radio station is based. Guild owned apartments where were player groups seemed to be more likely to congregate.

This could possibly be an argument for being able to have interiors for our POS's

Another one that I think is interesting is Face of Mankind. Even though the game itself is pretty basic, you have players running the different factions, lots of interesting politics, there in-game player run classes for new recruits, regular patrols of game areas. It's really fascinating. It almost seems like the basic features of the game has encouraged players to come up with their own way of playing the game by creating their own stuff to do.

The lesson I would take from that game is that you don't necessarily want to create interior spaces with too much pre-made content. Leave space for players to create their own uses.

Just thinking aloud


Well then you obviously are more familiar with entropia. I've only looked at videos and read about it, and although it don't look like my type of game I acknowledge its merits. It has lots of complexity and depth and meaningful gameplay through resource gathering and trade.

My opinion is that social gameplay/ mini games are only multipliers that serve to enhance core gameplay. However when you multiply zero gameplay with X you still end up with zero gameplay.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

terzslave
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1339 - 2012-09-03 08:40:14 UTC
I want my damn boardroom......
Pipa Porto
#1340 - 2012-09-03 09:00:21 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
wow i have a problem here

i like the possible added gameplay ,WIS can do and the social aspect of it

i am between camps here ,don,t kill me in the crossfire


about the misreading ,yes i understood you ,but i wanted to raise some sort of discussion

Some like the social part of what WIS can bring ,others want added gameplay
Both are possible at the same time
WIS could add some sort of in station PvP to corps at war,and social stuff for those who are not at war
WIS could add gameplay in space ,according to some ideas Team Avatar had(still love to see some high res vid of it)and have social stuff at the same time

With WIS you can go all directions added gameplay ,some extra pvp and the /emotes as a side affect of it



So, and this is the big issue in this thread, is it worth releasing a new Incarna expansion that just has the "social aspect."*

Because that's where this argument started. Now Ghazu's argumentative style might not be the best at starting constructive dialogue (it's part of the WI. charm), but nobody's actually explained how "emoting at each other" facilitates communication better than voice comms which is, I think, Ghazu's point.

My answer is no. In part because CCP isn't going to give Incarna a third chance if number two flops like number one, and another featureless room (even if it's got other people in it) is an almost guaranteed flop. In part because Incarna could be so much better than Multiplayer CQ and trying to get Multiplayer CQ on it's own isn't likely to help in getting actual consequential gameplay going (I would bet that CCP ends up using a different engine than the CQ engine for combat stuff).

*I still haven't seen anyone explain exactly how a bunch of Avatars in a room facilitates communication any better than voice comms.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto