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Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs

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Author
Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#121 - 2011-10-13 16:57:15 UTC
It's almost like CCP don't ******* remember what it was like before.

Poetic: you have it backwards. It doesn't take someone as large as E-Uni to do this, at all.

Last time this was "within the rules" there were umteen ******* alliances set up with the sole goal of allowing corps to hop in and out and reset all the wardecs on them. i.e. anyone can have a for-free wardec shield.

The reason these rules were put in place AT ALL was because of the insane amount of abuse that exact system took, completely shutting down anyone trying to make a living as a merc within the game.

And now CCP have said "yeah, all that horse-**** we thought was game breaking before ... erm ... erm ... yeah ... can't be bothered to police it TBH"

Terrible, just terrible.

I suggest people start complaining to whatever CSM member still gives a ****.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2011-10-13 17:06:07 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
Poetic: you have it backwards. It doesn't take someone as large as E-Uni to do this, at all.

I wasn't referring to alliance hopping. But you are correct about that. Anyone can do that.

I was referring to setting up a massive decshield. That can get a tad expensive, but E-Uni has the resources to handle it.

(Although, why E-Uni simply don't alliance hop between Ivy League, Ivy League., Ivy.League, and I-League to save a bunch of coin, I don't know. Perhaps something to do with POS mechanics?)
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2011-10-13 17:23:26 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Your new here right? I mean, it *is* CCP, and they just might change the enforcement before everything else! That's not logic, it's experience!

And this is a good thing because ...... ?

I *never* said it was a good thing. Because I don't believe that it necessarily is good.


I said it's :ccp:!


If this change is going to be followed by a review of Dec Mechanics (keeping in mind Malcanis' Law), I wouldn't be perturbed a bit. Which is what I think is happening. I honestly do not believe that CCP will allow hi-sec to become "SAFE-Sec", more than it is. Privies dec'd 200+ corps at one time, and we got these rules. If war *ends* in hi-sec (as it will for anyone not an idiot or too new to know the mechanics) I remain positive that CCP will be watching, and will be tweaking.

I don't agree that this statement should have come out before any announcement of a War-Dec review, but again,


: CCP :

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Irval Penken
Doomheim
#124 - 2011-10-13 17:33:55 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
(As far as the mechanic or mechanics used to prevent the wars costing us up to 72 billion ISK per month, I would rather not go into detail, as although I have had confirmation from CCP it is fine, the mechanic could be used in other ways - similarly, I would rather people didn't speculate as to this, at least in public, although I'm certain that a few of you may know how it works. Lets just call it a special E-UNI "sekrit"...)

Hm, but what is that mechanic they are using there? Would be interesting to check and learn about - after all, if it just gives confirmation that CCP has to change something anyway. But no mechanism should stay private for Eve-Uni clearly.
GokuZWar
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2011-10-13 17:44:31 UTC
Maybe i'm not getting this, but i thought when a corp leaves an alliance that's at war, that war follows them for the full week the war was declared. If not, then well CCP you are fools. If you set that up you wouldn't have to police squat. On the flip side, I thought when a corp joins a war decced alliance that alliance's war now becomes theirs as well. I though this whole lifing of this regulation was entirely for the individual player who leaves an corp and joins back up after the war is over. Aka, i got a new guy in my corp who can't handle wars yet because he's not ready, so he leaves until its over allowing him to train up and make isk while we pew pew... course i make him go to the NPC corp and not join any alt corp cuz i'll be damned if i gotta maintain two corps for people who can't fight...

Honestly i think this whole thing is a load of crap since if you join a corp and leave the safety of the NPC corp, that means you're saying that you're ready for the real game and quite frankly SH** happens in the real game. Your option is to run back to the NPC corp as the individual or stick it out and learn to fight and defend yourself.

To be honest, if an individual leaves a war decced corp, that war should follow them as well, but i guess if someone flees to canada the war from the US doesn't follow them either huh? lol But, hey, that's real life. Eve is clearly intended to follow real life expliots that people can do in the game, so if someone wants to flee around to other alt corps, war dec them too or go pew pew the corp you decced. That's not an exploit that's just being chicken sh**, let em run, cuz if the alliance is worth anything, they won't let em back in anyway. I know I wouldn't if it was my alliance.

As far as corps who leave alliances... an alliance is merely a peice of paper that says "we defend each other" if you leave an alliance your alliegence for that war should be enforced since it's only paper anyway. Assuming my original assumption was incorrect. If a corp ditches a war decced alliance, that war should follow them as long as the originator pays the dues...at the previous price if they were still in it, plus anyone who joins the alliance during the war period.

GokuZWAR
TS5P
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-10-13 20:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: TS5P
L3pp3r wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called "Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield".

The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics.

In other words:
If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind.



So without running it by the CSM, or having any discussions about it. You have set up a way to completely ruin a career path that has been in this game since inception. Griefers, mercs, etc have just got nuked.

Well said, L3.

I remember an interview during the PVP tournament when one of the principals at CCP kept saying how "It's good when things blow up"... yet, you guys seem to make decisions that move in the other direction!!

CCP.. you remind me of the American Congress... they cannot make a decision on anything, and the decisions they finally do make are terrible!! Evil

For years you've been talking about FIXING the dec system... can you FINALLY just do it!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#127 - 2011-10-13 21:04:17 UTC
I put the question to Trebor on twitter, who confirmed the CSM knew about / discussed this beforehand.

Linky

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Wietkop
Perkone
Caldari State
#128 - 2011-10-13 23:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Wietkop
From my understanding.

If a corp joins an alliance the originally deck gets carrierd over the remaining of the deck duration.

If you want to stop policing this rule. and not completely **** over our branch i suggest the following.

If a corp leavs an alliance they no longer automaticly surrender bud. the war duration of the original deck stays. unless a new bill has been payed.

There fore eliminating the alliance hop bullshit and allowing us to do our work no ?

Regards,
Wietkop
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#129 - 2011-10-13 23:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: sukmanobov
Come on CCP i'd say a good 80%-85% on this forum are hating what you have done. Why is there no reply??
After all it is us the player that "shape the world" or so you keep saying. Its time for the REAL reason PLEASE.

Quote:
CCP HELLMAR WROTE Somewhere along the way, I began taking success for granted. As hubris set in, I became less inclined to listen to pleas for caution. Red flags raised by very smart people both at CCP and in the community went unheeded because of my stubborn refusal to allow adversity to gain purchase on our plans. Mistakes, even when they were acknowledged, often went unanalyzed, leaving the door open for them to be repeated.

You have spoken, loudly and clearly, with your words and with your actions. And there were definitely moments in recent history when I wish I would have listened more and taken a different path.

I was wrong and I admit it.


Again you are rushing headlong. Take the time to listen to what people want and the forum has spoken, Give us a reply
rufeno
Black Frog Logistics
Red-Frog
#130 - 2011-10-14 01:12:53 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:
Come on CCP i'd say a good 80%-85% on this forum are hating what you have done. Why is there no reply??
After all it is us the player that "shape the world" or so you keep saying. Its time for the REAL reason PLEASE.


because what, 2 or 3% of the player base come here?

the forums are never a good representation of the player base.

sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#131 - 2011-10-14 02:47:22 UTC
where else do i get to voice my views? CSM... Don't make me laugh nothing we (as in wardec merc's) have never had anything we have asked for implemented though thoes channels. Givin the change half of eve won't even vote.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#132 - 2011-10-14 04:12:25 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

LOL. And people called me a tinfoil-hatter for decrying E-Uni's desire to get wardec mechanics changed to make it nearly impossible for anyone to wardec the Uni. :)

This recent "change", while it affects everyone and everyone can avail themselves of it, was no doubt implemented to help the Uni, since only the Uni has the resources to implement this sort of massive decshield. I believe this is the "teaching decshield" that was referred to earlier. No doubt a tiny nugget that Kelduum passed on to the membership after discussions he had with CCP.

That this change was brought down just as the "WSOP-free Month" is ending is a tad coincidental. It's almost as though Kelduum knew during what time period this change was going to be announced. Thus he stages a last huge set of wars for the EVE University students, a last hurrah before the University goes war-free for good. Someone may wardec the Uni for a week at a cost of 1 billion ISK, but the next week they'll likely see that cost jump to 10 billion ISK or more.

The days of the University being under war are pretty much over for good.

Sandbox? What sandbox? EVE University has bricked up their sandbox. Good luck getting inside to cause a little EVE-style mayhem.

Poetic Stanziel hit the nail on the head methinks...

Signatures should be used responsibly...

ShipToaster
#133 - 2011-10-14 05:28:47 UTC
Irdalth Delrar wrote:
Because changes made can't be helpful unless they're made specifically for a corporation?


Already been mentioned that eve uni is pushing for wardec changes (crowdsourcing and discussion with CCP).

It was reported that there were discussions between the eve uni ceo and CCP at fanfest.

CCP also asked the eve uni ceo what they could do to help them in August, this is unusual as I cannot remember CCP asking any other alliance what they could do to help them and them alone.

Near the end of last month CCP had discussions with eve uni and other educational groups again asking what they could do to help you.

In all three meetings wardecs were alleged to have been discussed but I have seen nothing mentioned by CCP about any of this.

It seems that eve uni are pushing for a change in mechanics where costs are based on the number of members in the defenders alliance. If the revised wardec cost formula from CCP is based on membership numbers then it seems safe to assume eve university was involved.

Irdalth Delrar wrote:
As for the costs/mechanics, and the post you referenced, have you heard of positive PR and jokes? If you read the post you quoted, you'll note it mentions having a number of wars mutual, in reserve should we want to raise costs. Raising costs to a bil would indeed cost around 8bil, if my math is right, while raising it to 500mi would only cost about 3bil. We're not skating mechanics, nor are we being treated special.


I dont think this was a joke as eve uni has now self decced with 19 corps. Self deccing with 19 corps means you envisage a scenario where you will want to force those who dec you to pay that 500 million or 1 billion. This will cost you 4.05 or 18.05 billion per week unless you are avoiding the fee somehow. I call bullshit on your claims that eve uni will pay this amount and counterclaim that you are using some method to avoid paying the correct amount.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
A total of 19 wars (from your example) would now cost just over 18 billion ISK to maintain per week, so not really an option that way.


Irdalth Delrar wrote:
We're not skating mechanics


This is "not really an option"? I notice you have now decced yourself with these 19 corps. I reiterate you intend to avoid the 18.05 billion fee. Is it 15 of these dec shield wars that are currently active? I think this should cost you 11.25 billion a week to maintain. You are not only "skating mechanics" but are cheating the concord fees.

We know that some things to do with wardecs are still considered exploits, joining in space for example, so hopefully someone from CCP can clarify if avoiding paying full concord fess by the toggling of wars mutual status is now allowed.

.

ShipToaster
#134 - 2011-10-14 05:47:40 UTC
Irdalth Delrar wrote:
We, and I think anyone else, could however do without wars that serve no purpose, never get fought, and are simply someone getting their jollies by picking on newbies.


Of course you could. Pity that wardecs are meant to be an inconvenience. All wardecs are is a bribe to get concord to look the other way they are not actual wars. While "wars that serve no purpose" might be true for you that is not important at all. Nothing says anyone involved needs to fight or even undock and this is a point that eve uni does not like to admit has validity.

I have been looking at how eve university operates when at war and it does not surprise me that wars for you are this way as this is what you want. You seek quick resolution to wars by making them boring and try to fight only with massive blobs. Wartime must be hell for many of your members.

Irdalth Delrar wrote:
picking on newbies.


Irdalth Delrar wrote:
Given the relative age of the populous of the Uni, we've basically a NPC corp people can attack.


I call bullshit on these claims.

I have been informed that the average age of eve uni members is over eight months. Over 600 are six months old and over 300 are a year old. This is not a newbie corp. Again I may be wildly wrong about this as it is second hand information, if the average age of eve uni members is under three months then I could accept that you are actually a newbie corp but no corp with 300 members who are over a year old can be considered a newbie corp.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I think it's a far leap to go from that to allege some kind of insider favoritism.


Yesterday I would have agreed with you but after some research today I am not so sure.

I dont think it is paranoia to see the connection here. Eve uni pushes for wardec changes for their own benefit and changes happen that mostly benefit them. I dont know of any other alliance that has used a dec shield to prevent wars but I might be wrong.

It will be interesting to see if there are revised mechanics and how much bias these new mechanics have toward protecting eve university from wardecs.

.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2011-10-14 06:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
ShipToaster wrote:
We know that some things to do with wardecs are still considered exploits, joining in space for example, so hopefully someone from CCP can clarify if avoiding paying full concord fess by the toggling of wars mutual status is now allowed.

The exploit in question is an EVE University "sekrit" because the method of avoiding the CONCORD fees was given to Kelduum by CCP.

Since only EVE University knows how to avoid these costs, it is not an "exploit", since the secret is not out in the wild.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
As far as the mechanic or mechanics used to prevent the wars costing us up to 72 billion ISK per month, I would rather not go into detail, as although I have had confirmation from CCP it is fine, the mechanic could be used in other ways - similarly, I would rather people didn't speculate as to this, at least in public, although I'm certain that a few of you may know how it works. Lets just call it a special E-UNI "sekrit"...
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-10-14 06:32:06 UTC
The Uni can avoid wars ... but they cannot avoid an old-fashioned UNIGEDDON.

How was Hulkageddon run by Helicity? Were there prizes? Leaderboards?

I think this is just what the game needs. A corporation thinks that they are above everyone else, that they can bend CCP's ear to their favour, that they can avoid all tears.

Bring the tears to them in some other manner. This is a sandbox. Some old-fashioned high-sec suicide ganking.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#137 - 2011-10-14 07:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelduum Revaan
ShipToaster wrote:
Irdalth Delrar wrote:
picking on newbies.
Irdalth Delrar wrote:
Given the relative age of the populous of the Uni, we've basically a NPC corp people can attack.
I call bullshit on these claims.

I have been informed that the average age of eve uni members is over eight months.


This is certainly not true - go look on our forum, as for people with orange names are regular users, and the forum will tell you how old they are as well as when they joined. Not all members post there, but it should give you a decent sample. If you need more info, we have a fill member list on our site.


Poetic Stanziel wrote:
ShipToaster wrote:
We know that some things to do with wardecs are still considered exploits, joining in space for example, so hopefully someone from CCP can clarify if avoiding paying full concord fess by the toggling of wars mutual status is now allowed.

The exploit in question is an EVE University "sekrit" because the method of avoiding the CONCORD fees was given to Kelduum by CCP.

Since only EVE University knows how to avoid these costs, it is not an "exploit", since the secret is not out in the wild.


Yes, CCP went back in time and provided me the secret information in 2008 when I first used it. Roll

You may want to try reading the post you quoted, Poetic... It does tend to help.


(I'm liking having our own personal troll, just like the nullsec blocs - E-UNI has finally arrived!)
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#138 - 2011-10-14 08:24:52 UTC
Stupid Forum ate my post. NOTE : Quick Reply is ******.

THIS CHANGE IS STUPID !!!!

What you should have done : Make it possible to fight people who hide in NPC corps with some sort of bounty system

What you did : Made highsec 100% safe except for suicide ganks.

WTF IS THIS ? Hello Kitty Online ?

FAIL ! EvilEvilEvil
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#139 - 2011-10-14 09:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
sukmanobov wrote:
Come on CCP i'd say a good 80%-85% on this forum are hating what you have done. Why is there no reply??
After all it is us the player that "shape the world" or so you keep saying. Its time for the REAL reason PLEASE.

Again you are rushing headlong. Take the time to listen to what people want and the forum has spoken, Give us a reply


I am not hating it and I think you are pulling numbers out of your rear trying to make a point only YOU can be accounted for.

CCP are not doing anyhting 'again'; quite the opposite is another forum warrior wannabee trying to speak on the behalf of people that does not share his point of view in any way. A daily occurence.

*I* believe declaring a war is dirt easy to do and as such shold be dirt easy to get out of too.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#140 - 2011-10-14 09:50:08 UTC
You don't fix the problem of people getting mugged by making it legal to mug people.

Likewise, you don't fix the problem of people exploiting poorly thought out game mechanics by making the exploits allowable.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori