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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

First post First post
Author
Gevlin
Planned Obsolescence.
No Visual.
#461 - 2012-06-15 02:37:05 UTC
That Blog put a tear of joyness in my eye!


Now I will be able to do level 4s in a Procurers?

I can see it now new level 4 mining missions requiring you to mine in extremely hostile locations.. Like In High sec next to Goon Space...

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#462 - 2012-06-15 02:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jed Clampett
Cannot really envision a fleet as able to protect miners except via blockading system access at gates (and cyno with new micro jump ships) -- or maybe englobing miners with warp bubbles. Once inside a system a smart ganker or small teams of gankers should normally be able to kill weak tanked Hulks and Covetors before being killed themselves. It might take some scouting stealth or combat probing first but that is just hard to stop setup as well.

Fleet revenge yeah - easy. Especially pod killing outside hi sec. Although gankers can adapt to pairs or greater to avoid implant loss sting. Plust economically a protective fleet diverts a lot of manpower and ship ISK from mining (probably half) ...assuming everyone was miner to start with.

Honestly I cannot see pressure to move group mining out of high sec unless Orca are barred or made paper weak. And even that may not be enough.

LOL - under current circumstances low sec mining groups are often done as bait for medium fleet PvP with a good way for some pilots to productively pass time and conceal what PVP ship they will fly in the Orcas. Might be the primary reason.

Similarly I think a closer look at null will find that most alliances do a lot of conscripting of miners to blobs and a general preference for PvP over mining in the general membership as well.

That is PVP just naturally goes to low and even more to null due to lack of restrictions and CONCORD...and in the process most corps tolerate or allow less and less mining as demand for PVP readiness goes up. Plus of course there are plenty of other pursuits that are more profitable and less boring...like ratting, etc. Presently Hulks in null or low sec present an abnormally high ISK risk (expensive and extremely weak in PVP) for no more than mediocre profits compared to alternative occupations.

Just as I suspect an honest examination of sovereignty mechanisms will reveal why null sec is all about blobs and not smaller fleet battles (small fleet battles are just not decisive - and small fleets invite defeat in detail by large fleets).
Gevlin
Planned Obsolescence.
No Visual.
#463 - 2012-06-15 03:05:56 UTC
Will there be another Design contest for new Destroyer ?

I thought the design contest was such an awesome player event allowing a person to have their work or idea presented into the game presents great pride not only with the individuals but also the community in general.

As a prize for having your models chosen the winner would get the 1st Exclusive blue print of that ship for 3 months.
BPC of the ships will appear as loot during this time though. Then after 3 months the Ship BP becomes available on the market for all.

The player would, without being stupid, would be able to make several years worth of isk to buy plex, and would shake up the market.

This would be for the Winter expansion and then Do it again for BC for the Following Summer Expansion



Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#464 - 2012-06-15 03:07:46 UTC
1. What about a dedicated gas harvester?
2. I now will probably want to have all 3 exhumers (currently I just have the bigger 2), good job ,CCP.
Gevlin
Planned Obsolescence.
No Visual.
#465 - 2012-06-15 03:38:10 UTC
I have always like the concept of a Drone based mining ship.

This ship would be used mine smaller asteroids, mining several Asteroids at once. Making me feel like a puppet Master.

If we are not being presented with a Done Based Mining Ship can we have modules or mining rigs or drones to make such a ship.

Ie
Rigs
Reduce mining laser Yeild in exchange for Beefing up Mining Drones.
Increase Mining Drone Capacity and / or bandwith with in the ship
Specialized Drone Ore Selection - Rig adds increase yield of drones on one type of or but lowers the yield on other ores


High Slot:
Advance Mining Drone Control Unit - Able to control an extra 2-4 mining drones per module only able to be fitted on Mining barge or Exhumers.
Droned tractor Stablizing unit. Adds 100% Ore Minend but extra units will have a decrease effect so that effective Each additional module ads 100% Capacity of the drones. 1st module is at 100% Strength, 2nd Modules is at 50% strength 3rd Module is 33% Strength. 3 Modules would add 300% not 700%



Drones:
Type III Mining Drones, or augmented Drones that have an increase mining yield for selected ore types.
Size Medium and Large Mining Drones.


Low Slot:
Mining Drone Yield Augmentor



Bah
I just want a drone based mining boat please ccp.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Gevlin
Planned Obsolescence.
No Visual.
#466 - 2012-06-15 03:38:53 UTC
I would love to have a naming contest for the new mining frigate.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#467 - 2012-06-15 03:51:25 UTC
Missile sniper and rocket brawler are two completely different fighting styles. Merlin used to be a pretty good rocket brawler with excellent tank (you know there's something odd when a ship with a hybrid bonus typically fits 2 rockets and maybe 2 projectiles), but it's lost it's rocket hardpoints.

Kestrel is a pretty good missile sniper for frig vs frig engagements, but has little tank worth talking about. I'd like to see something take over from the Merlin as a rocket brawler, sitting on the edge of rocket range with good tank and decent DPS and forcing gunboats to figure how to take the fight to it. This sort of ship also works in a fleet fight, whereas a light missile sniper is going to pop as soon as something with long range medium weapons decides to lock it.

Caracal has a similar issue. In a decent size arena with cruisers and smaller it's almost unbeatable; allow the target to bring bigger ships it's likely to die before it achieves much.


Also nice to see that some ships are getting cargo capacities to match their volumes. I noticed the other day that a badger mk II has a volume of 270k m3 but a base cargo capacity of about 5-6k m3, expandable into the high 20s with skills, modules and rigs. A hauler with only 10% of it's volume available for cargo is pretty inefficient, to say the least.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

None ofthe Above
#468 - 2012-06-15 04:00:15 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
Missile sniper and rocket brawler are two completely different fighting styles. Merlin used to be a pretty good rocket brawler with excellent tank (you know there's something odd when a ship with a hybrid bonus typically fits 2 rockets and maybe 2 projectiles), but it's lost it's rocket hardpoints.

Kestrel is a pretty good missile sniper for frig vs frig engagements, but has little tank worth talking about. I'd like to see something take over from the Merlin as a rocket brawler, sitting on the edge of rocket range with good tank and decent DPS and forcing gunboats to figure how to take the fight to it. This sort of ship also works in a fleet fight, whereas a light missile sniper is going to pop as soon as something with long range medium weapons decides to lock it.

Caracal has a similar issue. In a decent size arena with cruisers and smaller it's almost unbeatable; allow the target to bring bigger ships it's likely to die before it achieves much.


Also nice to see that some ships are getting cargo capacities to match their volumes. I noticed the other day that a badger mk II has a volume of 270k m3 but a base cargo capacity of about 5-6k m3, expandable into the high 20s with skills, modules and rigs. A hauler with only 10% of it's volume available for cargo is pretty inefficient, to say the least.


Valid points. I was advocating for the Merlin to get double bonused with both Missile and Hybrid, with 3/3 Turret/Missile hard points. Would have made for an interestingly flexible ship. I do miss the missiles from the Merlin.

Double bonuses for split weapons systems seems not to be in the cards however. I've yet to see it even acknowledged as an option, let alone be discussed seriously.

I'd love to see both the Tristan and the Merlin get that treatment. It would be very interesting.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#469 - 2012-06-15 04:00:38 UTC
I can see the skiff and retriever as maybe going low sec under fleet protection if they really have BS type ehp. Protection because they are not quick kills so defenders actually have time to protect instead of merely revenge. Maybe even solo in low sec if its practical to put decent escape measures on as well as good tank.

But again unless remarkably cheap I can't really see the new concept Hulk and Covetor in low sec as popular ship. Too zip bang gone. And historically the mass mining of cheap ores is not what frontiers are most famous for. No gold rush of very pricey and rare minerals is what frontier risk is about...often on small small. So the biggest and most fragile mining of low cost ores does fit more with safe established space...even if maybe not in the richest and oldest neighborhoods (1.0 space).

Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
#470 - 2012-06-15 04:46:42 UTC
Great blog, CCP! Looking forward to the new changes shaking up the status quo. Comments follow:

--Heavy Payload Delivery--
A bit more specialisation and clarification, and a general update to T1 frigates is a good idea. Keen to see how these go when they're released. Perhaps try and synchronise with the art department to include a (even if minor) visual upgrade to rebalanced ships as they're pushed out onto the server. Now that we've seen the kinds of ships the engine is capable of rendering (old Manticore -> new Manticore is a great example), it'd be a shame not to do them justice.

--Barge In On Me--
I see what you mean with wanting barges and exhumers each to have 'an appealing role' and I see that you've considered this in terms of things like tank vs yield vs ore holding capacity etc, but the community is also very interested in those 'appealing roles' covering other important resource harvesting like Ice and Gas. Perhaps an overhaul to the mining barges/exhumers could involve something like the T2 exhumers (Skiff, Mackinaw and Hulk) all being made relatively comparable in terms of storage/tank etc but being specialised into mining gas (Skiff), Ice (Mackinaw) and Ore, including Mercoxit (Hulk) with appropriate bonuses. Perhaps a good way to tackle the tank vs yield issue would be leaving the choice in the players' hands with the introduction of a T3 Industrial...

--Destroyer Of Worlds--
Do it. Sounds awesome. Suggest you hold another 'design-a-ship' contest as well; the community loves this level of participation!

--General Comment--
We really should name the new ORE frigate after Chribba. I can see this having massive community support!

Chief Executive Officer

Instar Heavy Industries

Artyom Hunter
Origin.
Fraternity.
#471 - 2012-06-15 05:36:03 UTC
*Sleezy Wink* I'll see you up stairs CCP...
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#472 - 2012-06-15 05:40:47 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
On the mining barge/exhumer cargo bay issue. Please keep in mind the size of T1/T2 mining crystals and the need to carry both primary and spares for each ore type that you expect to find out in the belts.

For a Hulk, this typically means 3 "used" crystals and 3-4 "new" crystals for each type (usually 3-4 different ore types in a belt). With T1 crystals, this means a minimum of 6 x 3 x 30m3 (540 m3 total), with the upper end using T2 crystals this is 7 x 4 x 50 m3 (1400 m3).

And if you are an organized person, you usually keep the T2 crystals in Medium Standard Containers, one per ore type, which are 325m3 each and hold 7 T2 crystals. So for most cases, you'll be hauling (4) of those containers out to the belts so that you have the right selection of crystals as well as spares. That's 1300 m3 of cargo space needed for crystal storage.

Alternately - you could consider reducing the size of crystals to 10 m3 for T1 and 15 m3 for T2. Which would cut the above numbers by about 1/3.



I like the way you're thinking, and hope that CCP could lean towards this direction.

All mining barges and exhumers need a mining crystal bay, similar to the multi-bay design of the Primae. If you reduced the crystal size you could easily add a second bay of roughly 1000m3 limited to store crystals.

Also, since we also need a gas harvesting platform ..... why not convert the Primae into a gas harvester, increase the cargohold in a similar fashion, eliminate the second and third cargo bays, and make this ship much more useful. We wouldn't need a completely *new* ship, just balance it out and make it more useful.
Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#473 - 2012-06-15 05:47:57 UTC
Holy Bantam sweet mother Jita, A blog full of love. Cool stuf ;D gankers gona cry, me thinking to back to mining Bear
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#474 - 2012-06-15 06:01:44 UTC
Please pay attention to the bonuses, regarding performance for different types of mining. The future hulk will have to be able to have the current mackinaw's performance for ice, and current skiff's for mercoxit, because (according to the devblog) that ought to be the performance ship.

Also, if you have a bit of time, could you please take a look at the rorq's compression performance capabilities? Currently it needs like 10-11 boosted hulks to maximize a single compression lane on the rorq, while having 4 boosted mackinaws all the 4 compression slots are maxed out and the rorq is lacking behind. This seems to be a bit unbalanced. For 1 slot, 11 hulks for ore, and 1 mackinaw for ice. Could you please adjust something here, so the rorq can also properly compress a decent fleet of mackinaws?
Geksz
The Fountain
#475 - 2012-06-15 06:08:15 UTC
Thenoran wrote:
Could you please please make the Skiff (or Mackinaw in its new role) into a Ninja Mining barge?
Great agility (3 to 4 sec align time max), +2 warp strength and perhaps a bonus to signature radius or regular cloak.

I'd love to be able to sneak into a system, mine the good stuff and not having to warp out as soon as someone else appears in local. Instead the ship should allow for the miner to only having to warp off when someone is actively gunning for you.
If someone warps to you the warp strength and agility should allow for a quick get away but you will still be vulnerable to being nabbed by a cloaked ship or a gang of inties. Staying alert and monitoring directional and local should make all the difference (leaving it up the pilot).


This would be nice, yes pls!

Thenoran wrote:
P.S. Can we have the old strip miner sounds back? Those actually sounded like they did something.


This pls!!!!! The current sound of the strip miners are awful. Bring back the old soundd pls! Pretty pls!
Rema Dach
The Great Legion
#476 - 2012-06-15 06:24:03 UTC
Quote:
Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe: strengthening current roles as support frigates. Which mainly means scanning and possibly mini-profession operations, like hacking and codebreaking as well.

Umm, codebreaking IS hacking.... I think for one of those you meant archeology/analyzing. I'll try not to read too much into that, although someone else surely will.

Otherwise...

CCP I LOVE YOU!
Can't wait for everything in this devblog, it's all awesome.
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#477 - 2012-06-15 06:38:46 UTC
Oh great.

You may rebalance ships that matter by 2014. Maybe.
Ulair Memmet
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2012-06-15 06:53:01 UTC
Ponder Yonder wrote:

2. Since you are overhauling the barges, how about giving us a dedicated gas miner?


this


Very nice changes. The new mining frigate looks good and i'm looking forward to seeing the new destroyers.
Endeavour Starfleet
#479 - 2012-06-15 07:19:22 UTC
I completely disagree with this thought process that says that more mining yield should mean less ehp.

Quote:
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


What protection guards against an alpha strike? NONE.

If I had to fly a procurer to have a chance of surviving a T3 alpha I mise well just unsub if I were a miner. It is completely backwards.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#480 - 2012-06-15 07:27:12 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I completely disagree with this thought process that says that more mining yield should mean less ehp.

Quote:
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


What protection guards against an alpha strike? NONE.

If I had to fly a procurer to have a chance of surviving a T3 alpha I mise well just unsub if I were a miner. It is completely backwards.


Oh, Christ...Roll

You again?

And no, it isn't.

Ship optimised for a non-combat role shouldn't be expected to fare too well in combat. That's what purpose-built warships are for.


Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.