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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

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Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#681 - 2012-05-14 10:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lock out
Mutnin wrote:


1st off I will say you are a lucky **** to get that Navy Geddon out the other day in structure and the friendly carriers were totally unexpected from us. We jumped into behind you guys started shooting stuff and in comes 3 or 4 friendly carriers and we were like wtf is this.. Shocked

Personally, I wasn't happy when they engaged again after allowing you guys time to set up bait & trap. I pretty much figured that was gonna go wrong.. lol



We had the counter prepared first time too, just that Tek was too drunk and grabbed 150 LO instead of 250 so he couldn't light cyno Big smile (yeah, we're pro like that)

Also, till I reached 4 km from gate I was resigned to dying. Then I jumped out with gcc with like 20 % struct left and on the other side gateguns managed to put me in 8 % struct left before I warped off Smile . Then I had to bounce 5 min to regen half shields and when I've heard our triage is on field I started shouting at Andar that I'm coming to whore and he needs to rep me as soon as I land, which he did . Unfortunately our tackling abilities were also sunk in alcohool.

Oh, and on a sidenote, am really lucky indeed that I got out, I have fair few ngeddons,and for that evening I picked the really pimped one (c-type enam, a-type membranes, etc)


Back on topic, the simple fact that you and I agree on something should raise a signal that things in FW are about to go terribly wrong Blink
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#682 - 2012-05-14 10:35:03 UTC
is it true you can now only mission in hostal space, so anyone winning will be refused missions on the grounds there is no system for them to mission in?

That would be funny as ****

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#683 - 2012-05-14 11:02:07 UTC
Lock out wrote:
Mutnin wrote:


1st off I will say you are a lucky **** to get that Navy Geddon out the other day in structure and the friendly carriers were totally unexpected from us. We jumped into behind you guys started shooting stuff and in comes 3 or 4 friendly carriers and we were like wtf is this.. Shocked

Personally, I wasn't happy when they engaged again after allowing you guys time to set up bait & trap. I pretty much figured that was gonna go wrong.. lol



We had the counter prepared first time too, just that Tek was too drunk and grabbed 150 LO instead of 250 so he couldn't light cyno Big smile (yeah, we're pro like that)

Also, till I reached 4 km from gate I was resigned to dying. Then I jumped out with gcc with like 20 % struct left and on the other side gateguns managed to put me in 8 % struct left before I warped off Smile . Then I had to bounce 5 min to regen half shields and when I've heard our triage is on field I started shouting at Andar that I'm coming to ***** and he needs to rep me as soon as I land, which he did . Unfortunately our tackling abilities were also sunk in alcohool.

Oh, and on a sidenote, am really lucky indeed that I got out, I have fair few ngeddons,and for that evening I picked the really pimped one (c-type enam, a-type membranes, etc)


Back on topic, the simple fact that you and I agree on something should raise a signal that things in FW are about to go terribly wrong Blink



You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.

That might be the writing on the wall here.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#684 - 2012-05-14 12:58:26 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.

That might be the writing on the wall here.

Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail ..
CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights.

Go figure.

But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes:
- Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use)
(Optional)
- Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready.

Intermediary result:
- An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... Smile
- An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys.

Final result:
- The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times.
- We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended.
- Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track.
- LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available.

Go Team Brain!
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#685 - 2012-05-14 13:03:02 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.

That might be the writing on the wall here.

Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail ..
CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights.

Go figure.

But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes:
- Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use)
(Optional)
- Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready.

Intermediary result:
- An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... Smile
- An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys.

Final result:
- The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times.
- We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended.
- Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track.
- LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available.

Go Team Brain!


nice ideas ... however chimp can press the nuke button, but cannot build the nuke ... I am afraid u asking wrong persons to think.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#686 - 2012-05-14 17:26:51 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
is it true you can now only mission in hostal space, so anyone winning will be refused missions on the grounds there is no system for them to mission in?

That would be funny as ****



I would like to know the answer to this as well. If that is true the larger side can just leave one system next to their best agent to the enemy and farm it like crazy with no travel time.

The enemy would be able to dock their but the larger side will likely be able to switch systems at will.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#687 - 2012-05-14 17:34:44 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.

That might be the writing on the wall here.

Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail ..
CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights.

Go figure.

But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes:
- Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use)
(Optional)
- Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready.

Intermediary result:
- An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... Smile
- An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys.

Final result:
- The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times.
- We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended.
- Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track.
- LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available.

Go Team Brain!



Why not:

1) just drop the 4x multiplier altogether. The winning side would still get up to a 20 % boost to thier lp generation from plexing pvp and missions. They could increase this a bit if they wanted. Thus the winning side would still have a big advantage on all the items shared by each faction.

2) Add more faction specific items to each lp store. Preferablly ones that were not useless like the amarr armor plates.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#688 - 2012-05-14 17:49:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Hidden Snake wrote:
nice ideas ... however chimp can press the nuke button, but cannot build the nuke ... I am afraid u asking wrong persons to think.

No comment. Lol
Cearain wrote:
Why not:...

Because it does nothing to prevent snowballs and does nothing to keep the war going when a side collapses, unless of course you mean remove the modifier while still introducing a diminishing returns + inverse system .. Smile

As for FW monopolies on new/old items .. Goddess yes. But not before missions are made challenging and the first series of iterations on LP in FW have come and gone.
Cookies'n'Cream
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#689 - 2012-05-14 18:10:14 UTC
Is Veshta = Hirana??

Also, what is a Shakorite?? Is this and RP thing? I'm not familiar with the lore....
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#690 - 2012-05-14 18:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Aye, it is all in the name .. The Yoshida Estate has two prominent daughters.

"Shakorite" is a term I have started using after it became evident that the Matari people at large has allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the megalomaniac Tyrant Shakor and his Brutor thugs. As with most cults/sects the name of follower is taken after that of the leader to indicate to whom they are enthralled and that they have no free will.

What is RP? Smile
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:
...I'm not familiar with the lore....

Damn woman! Time to hit the books (or chronicles as the case may be) don't you think? Some good reads there.
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#691 - 2012-05-14 19:33:39 UTC
Lock out wrote:

Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex.

I mean sure, it might lead to the nice fight now and then. But how about all those times when I'll have to spin buttons for 4 hrs to decontest my home system with no one coming in those plexes to shoot at me ? A lot of ppl that came for pvp not pve are gonna drop FW, simple as. Lemme give you some **** from our forums :

"To be honest, I am reluctantly waiting to see how it goes. But if it gets to 4 hrs / day plexing just to be able to dock, FW becomes a non option."

"I've read quite a lot of people saying they are / will leave.
For us it's a case of let's see how it turns out, if it ends up being just a crazy grind then it's a no brainer tbh."

"if we have to plex for hours to get the system back, people will get bored of it, unless we get fight but i doubt."

"I hope I'm wrong, but I think we might have to leave Nisuwa, leave FW if we wanna stay in Nis or plex our asses off every day to stay in FW and in Nis... "

And these quotes come from guys on (what's generally considered) the winning side atm. Can;t even imagine how the losing sides (caldari/amarr) feel about it.

They could add in all the changes except lockouts and make FW more appealing to PvP'ers.

Something tells me CCP doesn't want FW to be too much of a draw. Hence, the huge penalty for fighting on the losing side.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#692 - 2012-05-14 19:44:06 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Why not:...

Because it does nothing to prevent snowballs and does nothing to keep the war going when a side collapses, unless of course you mean remove the modifier while still introducing a diminishing returns + inverse system .. Smile

As for FW monopolies on new/old items .. Goddess yes. But not before missions are made challenging and the first series of iterations on LP in FW have come and gone.



Yes it would tend to reduce the snowball effect if each faction had additional unique items only for that faction and there was not a 4xs multiplier (really a 16x multiplier) of cost.

For example if amarr had allot of amarr specific items (say some new ships like say a faction coercer or armor plates that were actually better than meta 4 plates) in their lp store that no other lp store had but had very few pilots on their side getting those items they would increase in value. I mean we have a few items already. However when the cost of those items is going to go up 4x its not really going to be worth it.

Add a few more faction ships and remove the 4x multiplier and I think we have a much better chance. The side with fewer pilots will be making more isk per lp.

From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in. That is partly why I think many other mechanics are so accomodating for null sec alliances.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#693 - 2012-05-14 20:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Cearain wrote:
From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in.



Bingo. No real mystery about that.

And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen.

1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#694 - 2012-05-14 21:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Mutnin wrote:
Lock out wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:

It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.


It will be impossible. We decided to flip Enaluri yesterday. Caldari had their best effort that I've seen in ages, 50 guys all in one system, coming at us over and over again. We just rallied ppl, got more than 50, curbstomped them and then dreadbombed the bunker before they had the chance to run another plex to get it out of vulnerable. They are rebuilding and they can't cope with fighting against superior numbers, more experiencd pilots and better ships. So all in all they are gonna lose system after system.

Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex.




We had a meeting among the corp CEOs recently where I once again tried to push to get fleet fit ships ready and pretty much just got the same flack on the subject. I asked " what happens if Gals show up tomorrow to take Enaluri?" Ironically enough you guys attacked and captured it the next day, so I guess we now see what happens..


I wish I was a fly on the wall for that meeting. I really don't know why these guys would give you flack considering your advice is just common sense stuff. Anyone who has been in the warzone for a month can see the value in your advice.

I barely got to fight yesterday during Enaluri but alot of the GalMil guys were giving Caldari props for rallying that many people. Just imagine how much more competitive it would be if they actually had any sort of organization and fleet doctrine

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#695 - 2012-05-14 21:45:18 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. Ugh

I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

I threw up a bit around 4:15.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#696 - 2012-05-14 22:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.

Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. Ugh

I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

I threw up a bit around 4:15.



Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people.

A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. And what was said on your blogs.

Remember when what i was saying on voice when they were talking about what was coming on fanfest feed and how I said it was bad then and why. You said it was prob just ideas they were kicking around and most of it was just drawing board still. Well seems i was right it was not just drawing board was it.

That crystal ball.

Welcome to Null Light.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#697 - 2012-05-14 22:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in.



Bingo. No real mystery about that.

And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen.

1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).


oh ... hello Hans our FW savor ... oh no he just entered hellhole for the nullbears and his own faction What?

blobfest here we comes ... Hans both options u mentioned leads to total destruction of small scale warfare. Actually last few days on caldari front are pointing to the future quite exactly.

and yes this is just spit in our faces Hans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

after watching this .... I would tell u just step down from CSM once the patch is up ... honestly politicians in RL sometimes do this when they break their promises.
marketjacker
Mr. Clean Corp..
#698 - 2012-05-15 00:26:24 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in.



Bingo. No real mystery about that.

And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen.

1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).


oh ... hello Hans our FW savor ... oh no he just entered hellhole for the nullbears and his own faction What?

blobfest here we comes ... Hans both options u mentioned leads to total destruction of small scale warfare. Actually last few days on caldari front are pointing to the future quite exactly.

and yes this is just spit in our faces Hans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o

after watching this .... I would tell u just step down from CSM once the patch is up ... honestly politicians in RL sometimes do this when they break their promises.



My God you and dirk (and most of IBS) are so bitter you are getting kicked from rakapas.
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#699 - 2012-05-15 00:51:16 UTC
marketjacker wrote:

My God you and dirk (and most of IBS) are so bitter you are getting kicked from rakapas.

My God gets kicked from nowhere.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#700 - 2012-05-15 01:13:07 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.


At that point it will be far too little much to late and will still end with the situation that one side is way stronger than the other, being the other has to rebuild from scratch. This is a lose lose situation all around if it comes to this point..

The first is one of the worst game design mentalities I've even heard of.