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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1121 - 2012-03-07 12:06:58 UTC
Assuming that what's been said here translates to the game, then I love the changes and by extension; you guys Cool.

I know its been said before, but be really really certain that we're going to stay at all fives. Cuz if you think you've seen pissed off vets on the forums before... Well... April Fools is coming up... Post it like that and see what happens. Our rage will be comparable to a gamma ray burst.

Just as a random question... How do the changes effect fully speccing BC and dessie ships ? It seems to me that you gain time with one racial BC, but eventually you'll end up a fair way behind. Now I'm not too fussy about that, because noobies get it too easy these days anyway, but it is worth noting.

To all you guys who want BS 5's reimbursed: SUCK IT UP. If you only trained BS 5 for capitals you are terrible to the nth power. Wanna know whats awesome ? Vindicators. Try them sometime. *shakes head*.
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1122 - 2012-03-07 12:10:24 UTC
if i have bc 4.5 do i get lvl 4 all race or all race 4.5?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#1123 - 2012-03-07 12:21:17 UTC
This is a great idea! Cleaning up the roles and ship types will open new possibilities. Also splitting up the destroyer skills is a good and consistent idea even tough the whole reimbursement of SP will be tricky.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#1124 - 2012-03-07 12:25:50 UTC
I LOVE YOU CCP! DEATH TO TIERS!!!Twisted

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#1125 - 2012-03-07 12:27:02 UTC
My only objection is not needing lvl 5 skills to move up the ship chain. If they did lvl 5 frigate needed for destroyers, lvl 5 destroyers needed for cruisers, lvl 5 cruisers needed for battlecruisers. and etc. I would be in full support of it. Otherwise, not needing level 5 skills to jump into Capitals, now that's just plain dumb...
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#1126 - 2012-03-07 12:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.

EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:

  • New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
  • We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.


MOAR STUFF HERE FOLKS (skills, confusing picture, apology to CSM).


I have racial BS's to V, Cruiser to V and BC to V. I would hope this translates into having the racial BC skill to V by default when you roll this stuff out?

/rhetoricalquestion

Edit: Current link suggests yes. Hopefully this holds true.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Raiz Nhell
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1127 - 2012-03-07 12:31:24 UTC
Change is good, I like the idea of the split and lack of tiers...

I also love the ignorance and "jump the gun" rage in this thread... So many shout "CCP have ruined the game for me" without reading or comprehending...


Make the changes, they'll be great...


There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#1128 - 2012-03-07 12:32:00 UTC
:) they could.. just to be a little conservative... not give the racial BC level if they didn't have the cruiser skill trained for that race... :) just an idea

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Sunviking
Doomheim
#1129 - 2012-03-07 12:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunviking
I do not think removal of the generic BC and Dest skills are all that bad.

As for people having to retrain their racial battlecruisers skills, Tier1 ships of most Tech1 ship classes are going buffed, so you will be getting a benefit from more capable battlecruisers anyway. If you need to retrain some Battlecruisers skills then so be it.

Also, if you have Battlecruisers at 5 and can fly all races' Battlecruisers currently, but only have 1 or 2 Racial Cruiser skills to 5, then if CCP gives you all Racial Battlecruisers skills to 5 as reimbursement, clearly you are going to be able to fly all race's Command Ships immediately when you couldnt have done so before the change, due to Cruisers not being a requirement for Command Ships anymore... So that would be a net benefit to all the crosstrainers, something that CCP needs to avoid, to stop these crosstrainers having too easy a time. So DON'T give them the Racial Battlecruisers skills to enable them to get to level 5, because many of them will then be able to automatically fly ships they couldn't have done before.

I suspect that there are some people out there with alterior motives for being reimbursed with all Racial Battlecruiser skills.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1130 - 2012-03-07 12:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
this would only work if ccp seeded the cerebral accelerator implant on the market making it available to all players for at least 6 months to facilitate the change over process

that way those who cross trained can quickly restore their ability to use all the ships this change would remove.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1131 - 2012-03-07 12:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
The way it was described, CCP is going to adjust ship stats and capabilities base on role instead of tier. Slow heavy hitters, fast, lightly armoured strike craft etc. This clearly means that ships within the same faction fleet will have differing capabilities. Does it mean, however, that Minmatar ships will no longer be all fast, and Amarr/Caldari as much slower ships overall? Will Amarr pilots have the choice between a slow, heavily armoured cruiser as well as a fast, hunter/killer ship as well? It's an interesting thought in terms of how to rebalance the factions, instead of just having a race that's all speed, another race that only does armour tanking etc.

Oh, and the way I see it, if the ships that are kinda useless atm become useful, cross-training is less essential. Players have had to cherry-pick the good ships from the different races in order to excel, and this may well come to an end in the future.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
SPYDERWOLF
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1132 - 2012-03-07 12:39:57 UTC
Galphii wrote:
The way it was described, CCP is going to adjust ship stats and capabilities base on role instead of tier. Slow heavy hitters, fast, lightly armoured strike craft etc. This clearly means that ships within the same faction fleet will have differing capabilities. Does it mean, however, that Minmatar ships will no longer be all fast, and Amarr/Caldari as much slower ships overall? Will Amarr pilots have the choice between a slow, heavily armoured cruiser as well as a fast, hunter/killer ship as well? It's an interesting thought in terms of how to rebalance the factions, instead of just having a race that's all speed, another race that only does armour tanking etc.

Oh, and the way I see it, if the ships that are kinda useless atm become useful, cross-training is less essential. Players have had to cherry-pick the good ships from the different races in order to excel, and this may well come to an end in the future.

how quickly we forget gallente ships :(
Ryoko Matsu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1133 - 2012-03-07 12:43:47 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ryoko Matsu wrote:
*\o/*

great news about dropping the tier system!

also no problem regarding the "new" skill system...

but:
the policy "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today"
in general what do you intend here?

let´s say i have BC5
will that change to let´s say Amarr BC 5
and the rest on 3 (to fly all the tiers)

or will the reimbursement so that i can fly all racial BC at 5? (having the prerequs...)

just wondering...


Go read the first post. Go to the third link on the first post. Profit.


oh thanks...

/me a bit dizzy at work -.-
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1134 - 2012-03-07 12:46:35 UTC
Galphii wrote:
The way it was described, CCP is going to adjust ship stats and capabilities base on role instead of tier. Slow heavy hitters, fast, lightly armoured strike craft etc. This clearly means that ships within the same faction fleet will have differing capabilities. Does it mean, however, that Minmatar ships will no longer be all fast, and Amarr/Caldari as much slower ships overall? Will Amarr pilots have the choice between a slow, heavily armoured cruiser as well as a fast, hunter/killer ship as well? It's an interesting thought in terms of how to rebalance the factions, instead of just having a race that's all speed, another race that only does armour tanking etc.

Oh, and the way I see it, if the ships that are kinda useless atm become useful, cross-training is less essential. Players have had to cherry-pick the good ships from the different races in order to excel, and this may well come to an end in the future.

You don't understand how fleet doctrines work, do you?

Everyone in the fleet has to maneuver the same way, and have the same basic damage profile(range, damage type, etc) in order to effectively co-ordinate them to work as a team. This is why you don't see Rohks in Alphafleets, ishtars in ahac fleets, or Hyperions in any fleets. Making it hard to crosstrain will simply make nullsec life harder than it already is.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1135 - 2012-03-07 12:48:05 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
this would only work if ccp seeded the cerebral accelerator implant on the market making it available to all players for at least 6 months to facilitate the change over process

that way those who cross trained can quickly restore their ability to use all the ships this change would remove.


Go read the first post. Go to the third link on the first post. Profit.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1136 - 2012-03-07 12:49:09 UTC
Galphii wrote:


Oh, and the way I see it, if the ships that are kinda useless atm become useful, cross-training is less essential. Players have had to cherry-pick the good ships from the different races in order to excel, and this may well come to an end in the future.


An excellent point. Wanna do PvP? Train Minnies... wanna do Missions? Train Caldari, etc
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#1137 - 2012-03-07 12:50:45 UTC
Gorp wrote:
This ideas is so full of fail its hard to know where to begin. First, one skill for all races of destroyer/battlecruiser is a feature not a bug. It gives some much needed flexibility to both newer players (destroyers) and vets (BCs). Getting a taste of different races' capabilities without a tedious slog through skill queues is a GOOD thing.

Second, the whole "lines" vs "tiers" thing seems completely pointless from a player perspective. I guess its designed to make it easier for CCP to make wholesale changes (e.g. delete a midslot from all ships of a certain type) in the pursuit of 'balance'. But this seems wrong as the imbalances are most often found within a class.

Third, the whole exercise assumes CCP will be able to get the balance "right". They never have before, why assume they will do so now? Which leads me to...

Four, relatively painless cross-training is important because it lets players work around CCP mistakes. Their, many, many mistakes.

Finally, there seems to be an underlying assumption that EVERY ship needs to be good at all around PVP. This is nonsense. Some ships will always be better than others. There is no reason that a mining cruiser needs to be 'viable' in PVP (though some players may fit it in a way that is great in one particular circumstance and LOL in every other situation - which is fine). Furthermore, ship viability/popularity often changes as a result of changes to modules rather than the underlying hull. So the Celestis became pretty useless when Damps were nerfed.

tl;dr Not clear that CCP fully understands what problems it needs to fix.


I largely agree.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1138 - 2012-03-07 12:54:02 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.

EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:

  • New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
  • We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.


MOAR STUFF HERE FOLKS (skills, confusing picture, apology to CSM).


I have racial BS's to V, Cruiser to V and BC to V. I would hope this translates into having the racial BC skill to V by default when you roll this stuff out?

/rhetoricalquestion

Edit: Current link suggests yes. Hopefully this holds true.


If CCP stick to what they say then its a bonus day for guys like you and me. I've got all the Racial cruisers to V, BC to V, all the BS's to V, spaceship and advanced spaceship command to V and all the other higher cross racial skills.

I wonder if this also means they'll get rid or change the cross weapon system skills and split missiles, projectiles, hybrids and lasers truly up into independent groups rather than have missiles in one group and the rest in another, which makes no sense from a certain point of view.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1139 - 2012-03-07 13:03:50 UTC
Don't know if CCP is aware of this: If you give all new racial BC skills with level V to every pilot who now has the single generic BC skill trained to V, you effectively quadruple everyone's BC skillpoints. Which is fine when comparing current players because everyone gets the same benefit. BUT new players will henceforth have to train the four new skills separately. So you effectively boost veterans at the expense of new players that join shortly before the change or after it.

For example, a player that joins the game five weeks before the change can train BC to V once and will get the four new skills maxed out for free. A player who joins five weeks later gets nothing and has to train the four new skills the hard way. Thus the newer player will have millions of SPs less even though he is just a few weeks younger. That's pretty rough.

.
gfldex
#1140 - 2012-03-07 13:06:05 UTC
Before skill changes:

Player looks up skill requirements, then acquires skills and learns them in given order.

After skill changes:

Player looks up skill requirements, then acquires skills and learns them in given order.

I can't really see where the benefit is. You will spend a lot of time getting the SP reimbursement wrong (every time you did that in the past some players had to ask GMs for help) for no benefit.

Removing the tier concept is something quite a few players have suggested over and over for years. It's an artificial boundary that has made plenty of ships pointless for years. (LOL Augoror!) Just do it.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.