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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1081 - 2012-03-07 10:03:43 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
As I see this change, it removes choices by channeling people into a racial path, which in some cases is a VERY bad thing(think Gallente since the nano nerf) which takes considerably more effort to get out of.
No, it just adds a bit more gravitas to the choice — it does not remove any.

Quote:
It also forces training of things you have no intention of using(I have dessie to 2 because I hate the class of hull), which removes choices.
Actually, it does away with many of those choices and the ones they add (Dessy IV and BC IV) are so insignificant that they don't matter on the scale of things. In exchange, you can specify what you want to train far better than before since they're removing the cross-tier requirements: if you want to train HACs, you can simply train HACs — no need for the frigate nonsense; if you want to train Fleet CS, you can train Fleet CS and not have to care about the Logi nonsense.

You get more choices, and very little in added consequences since the ship skills are still a rather minor part of what you need to train in order to go for width rather than depth.
RavenNyx
Tax 'n Death
#1082 - 2012-03-07 10:04:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
RavenNyx wrote:
You'll remove the "Battlecruiser" skill and replace it with "[RACE] Battlecruiser" skills. That's great... You did stop to include stuff like f.ex. "Angel Cruiser" or "Sansha Carrier" too, right? I mean, to avoid MAJOR inconsistencies in your idea, already at birth?
What's inconsistent about it?

We already have racial cruiser skills — 2× racial cruiser = pirate cruiser. So why would they have to suddenly introduce [pirate] cruiser skills all of a sudden?

We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be...

Tippia wrote:
RavenNyx wrote:
And the skillpoint idea - what a lovely thought... I trust that you'll reimburse all my training-time on medium lasers, and the time I spent training for medium hybrids too, right?
Why would they? You'll still be able to use those skills (and ships).

They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC.
Tizmen
New Eden Interchange
#1083 - 2012-03-07 10:12:22 UTC
Hopefully they are just trolling us.

I can't see how this can be good in any way. More skills for people train? If anything you should be removing skills, not adding more!

we just got rid of learning skills FFS.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1084 - 2012-03-07 10:12:28 UTC
RavenNyx wrote:
We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be...
The question remains: where is the inconsistency? Each pirate faction consists of a mix of two races — it's right there in the RP. What's inconsistent about the pirate faction ships requiring the two racial skills? That's like calling it inconsistent that you need Caldari Cruiser to fly the Navy Caracal.

Quote:
They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC.
…but you will be able to fly the BC, so what has been “thrown away”? If you didn't want those skillpoints, why did you get them (and why should they reimburse you for your poor judgement)? If you did want them, and enjoy flying the ships they provide you with, then they're not wasted now are they?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1085 - 2012-03-07 10:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Tippia wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
As I see this change, it removes choices by channeling people into a racial path, which in some cases is a VERY bad thing(think Gallente since the nano nerf) which takes considerably more effort to get out of.
No, it just adds a bit more gravitas to the choice — it does not remove any.

Quote:
It also forces training of things you have no intention of using(I have dessie to 2 because I hate the class of hull), which removes choices.
Actually, it does away with many of those choices and the ones they add (Dessy IV and BC IV) are so insignificant that they don't matter on the scale of things. In exchange, you can specify what you want to train far better than before since they're removing the cross-tier requirements: if you want to train HACs, you can simply train HACs — no need for the frigate nonsense; if you want to train Fleet CS, you can train Fleet CS and not have to care about the Logi nonsense.

You get more choices, and very little in added consequences since the ship skills are still a rather minor part of what you need to train in order to go for width rather than depth.

Well, you are caldari, and I know you don't take part in large fleets, so you haven't experienced the pain of being a gallente subcap pilot in Eve for the past few years. As things stand, it is fairly easy to cross train to a new race(only takes about a month to train into a battleship able to fit meta 4 large guns, if you are crosstraining). Then again, what we are conditioned to think of as 'easy' in eve is pretty skewed already, considering you can max out at the most popular MMO in the world in 14 days.

If we know that tomorrow minmatar ships will be as good as gallente will be as good as caldari will be as good as amarr, and all will be able to be built to the same performance profiles so they can keep up in a fleet, making cross training harder will be ok. Till that day lets keep race loyalty a personal choice, and let those of us who are trying to compete not be forced to effectively start over.

Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
#1086 - 2012-03-07 10:21:41 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
...
Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines.


fleet doctrines are derivative. if ships change, fleet doctrines will change. hopefully, EVE will get cured of homogenity in fleet composition.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1087 - 2012-03-07 10:23:38 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Well, you are caldari, and I know you don't take part in large fleets, so you haven't experienced the pain of being a gallente subcap pilot in Eve for the past few years.
…you mean aside from me training Gallente as my first race and having used those ships pretty much exclusively back in my large-fleet days? Yeah, no, assumptions are bad for you so stop using them because they can only ever make you look foolish.

Quote:
As things stand, it is fairly easy to cross train to a new race(only takes about a month to train into a battleship able to fit meta 4 large guns, if you are crosstraining).
…and after this change, the difficulty is pretty much the same. The only difference is that you need to get Destroyers IV (a day an a half) to go to Cruisers and above, and Battlecruiser IV (4 days) to go to Battleships and above. Unless you absolutely have to have BC V or Dessy V, that's the only difference, and if you're getting that BC V to get into command ships, this new setup is actually faster than the old one.

Quote:
having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines.
Fun fact: BC will still be cross-trainable in a week or 2.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1088 - 2012-03-07 10:25:17 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines.

This is very much the central issue of this revamp.

What we're getting according to the devblog is a segregation of players according to race trained, making it much more difficult for someone to try out ships from other races at a competitive level.

This will make life for new alliance grunts hell.

Nyan

Melissa Brown
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1089 - 2012-03-07 10:26:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
It groups vessels into easily identifiable lines for each race and allow us to add new skills to support them. That is the purpose of the ship line skills mentioned above, which could further boost respective advantages. Combat ship line skills could give a bonus to defense, while attack ship skills benefit offense and mobility for example.


So you are planning to add additional support skills per ship line? Where’s the benefit in that? Currently I can fly the Cane "perfectly" with all support skills at 5. After this change I will still be able to fly the Cane (Gallente char), thanks to the planned reimbursement. But I will need to train new skills for its ship line to fly it as good as before. I will need to do it for all ship lines...

I don't mind splitting generic skills into race specific skills as long as the players are reimbursed accordingly. I don't mind if you change the requirement tree, if BS5 for caps or AS4 for hacs are reimbursed. But I don't believe adding more support skills to a already long list will benefit the game or the players.
RavenNyx
Tax 'n Death
#1090 - 2012-03-07 10:26:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
RavenNyx wrote:
We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be...
The question remains: where is the inconsistency? Each pirate faction consists of a mix of two races — it's right there in the RP. What's inconsistent about the pirate faction ships requiring the two racial skills? That's like calling it inconsistent that you need Caldari Cruiser to fly the Navy Caracal.

So, a different pattern of a racial faction ship, that's your argument. It's the same hull? Same goes for all the racial factions' stuff. Read the description of the republic fleet firetail f.ex. - based on a rifter-hull. The navy caracal - even the name is the same, the pattern is not... I don't really care for RP in this context. If the RP-element said that Amarr had the greatest ships in all of New Eden, and it was depicted in the balancing of the ships, you see nothing but amarr ships out there - it'd be Amarr online instead...

Tippia wrote:
RavenNyx wrote:
They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC.
…but you will be able to fly the BC, so what has been “thrown away”? If you didn't want those skillpoints, why did you get them (and why should they reimburse you for your poor judgement)? If you did want them, and enjoy flying the ships they provide you with, then they're not wasted now are they?

Theory-crafting and nitpicking - I love it :) now go play troll with someone who likes that stuff...
Echo Mande
#1091 - 2012-03-07 10:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Echo Mande
An interesting blog and one I'll have to think on for a bit.

Some questions (which may already have been answered; I haven't read the threadnaught)
- Battlecruisers V is currently a prerequisite for Command Ships skill, with racial cruiser V and (support ship skill) IV needed to fly the ship. I take it that will be changed to avoid creating 4 racial command ship skills

- Will the current requirements for the Covetor be fixed? Currently it has the same requirements (except for exhumers skill) as a hulk resulting in everybody sticking with retrievers while training up. I would suggest changing either the required mining barge skill or astrogeology skill to IV. Dropping both to IV would IMO be overkill

- It's always amused me that flying a freighter required Advanced Spaceship Command skill while flying an Orca, which is the same size, only required Spaceship Command V. Will this be changed

- Any thoughts on integrating the Industrial Command Ships and Capital Industrial Ships skills? The ships involved have broadly the same purpose (boost/haul) and the Rorqual specific bits (Capital ships skill) could easily be taken out. It could result in the following skill: Industrial Command (requires mining barge V, Leadership V, Mining Director I). To fly an Orca you'd need this at level I and Spaceship Command V (or Advanced Spaceship Command I). To fly a Rorqual you might need this skill at III-IV plus Capital Ships II (and Jump skills of course)

- On a further note, any thoughts on removing Spaceship Command/Advanced Spaceship Command/Capital Ships skill as a prerequisite from the various ship type skills and implementing them as a (higher level) ship secondary skill (if they aren't already there)? For instance, an Archon requires Capital Ships I, Amarr Carrier I, and Jump Drive Operations I. However Amarr Carrier skill also requires Capital Ships III which to me seems over the top*. A neater solution would be to have the Archon require Capital Ships III to begin with, with Amarr Carriers skill not having a Capital Ships requirement. In practice this wouldn't change things though the various planning skill trees would be weeded.

* Capital Industrial Ships skill is worse, with Advanced Spaceship Command and Capital Ships skills both being secondary skill requirements. The Rorqual itself also has Capital Ships II as a requirement.

Comments?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1092 - 2012-03-07 10:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
RavenNyx wrote:
So, a different pattern of a racial faction ship, that's your argument. It's the same hull? Same goes for all the racial factions' stuff. Read the description of the republic fleet firetail f.ex. - based on a rifter-hull. The navy caracal - even the name is the same, the pattern is not...
I'm saying race → hull skill prereq.
Pirate faction = 2 mixed races → 2 hull skill prereqs.

So again, where's the inconsistency?
Quote:
Theory-crafting and nitpicking - I love it :) now go play troll with someone who likes that stuff...
So in other words, you don't see it as a problem because you're not wasting any SP. Good.

Echo Mande wrote:
Some questions (which may already have been answered; I haven't read the threadnaught)
- Battlecruisers V is currently a prerequisite for Command Ships skill, with racial cruiser V and (support ship skill) IV needed to fly the ship. I take it that will be changed to avoid creating 4 racial command ship skills
Most likely, we'll go from the two command ships requiring [racial] Cruiser V + Command Ship I + HAC/Logi IV to simply requiring [racial] Battlecruiser V + Command Ship I (and the BC requirement for the Command Ships skill will be removed since it no longer exists and since the ships themslves already carry that prereq).

Quote:
- Will the current requirements for the Covetor be fixed?
Yes. Specifically mentioned in the blog, at least as far as the Barges skill goes — no mention of the Astrogo skill.
Jed Mosley
U Got To Sin
#1093 - 2012-03-07 10:36:26 UTC
What about making the bc skill a lower training time multiplier so that training the 4 new bc skills to 5 will take the same time or something along those line?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1094 - 2012-03-07 10:37:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…you mean aside from me training Gallente as my first race and having used those ships pretty much exclusively back in my large-fleet days? Yeah, no, assumptions are bad for you so stop using them because they can only ever make you look foolish.
You mean before they became useless and were the one race of ship absolutely unwelcome in large fleets? Thats my point.
Quote:
…and after this change, the difficulty is pretty much the same. The only difference is that you need to get Destroyers IV (a day an a half) to go to Cruisers and above, and Battlecruiser IV (4 days) to go to Battleships and above. Unless you absolutely have to have BC V or Dessy V, that's the only difference, and if you're getting that BC V to get into command ships, this new setup is actually faster than the old one.
So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4?

Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me Roll
Quote:
Fun fact: BC will still be cross-trainable in a week or 2.

As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for. I discovered I could fly a thrasher on accident because I passed it on the way to doctrine fits(only reason I trained outside gallente to begin with, drone boats are the true masters of space).

Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills'

Even if the time frames were the same(they are not, they stated that they intend them to be longer for subcaps) the sheer number of skills get more intimidating the more there are, and the farther the player feels it takes them from where they want to train.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1095 - 2012-03-07 10:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tallian Saotome wrote:
You mean before they became useless and were the one race of ship absolutely unwelcome in large fleets?
No. About the time when Amarr and MInmatar were the mainstay of fleets, especially for the ship sizes I fly. I'l say it again before I break out the personal abuse: stop assuming things because they only ever make you look foolish.

Quote:
So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4?

Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me Roll
Sure doesn't, largely because you forgot to add the things that actually take time when you cross-train. The difference is a few days, which is very little compared to the month you describe, which comes from having to learn new weapons, new tanks, new ewar — the basic ship skills are a very small part of the cross-training slog.

So let's fix that list:

Frigs IV + Cruiser IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar ~ Frigs IV + Dessy IV + Cruiser IV + BC IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar. A far cry from twice the training time.

Quote:
As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for.
…while removing a whole lot more unnecessary crap that people don't want to train for and which sits in the way of people specialising earlier. With those silly prereqs out of the way, you can get further faster.

Quote:
Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills'
Since all it is is two more skills that are done away with in very short order (and one of which is very popular for personal use), any added difficulty rather suggest a problem with your leadership…
Viscount Hood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1096 - 2012-03-07 10:54:17 UTC
This looks fantastic it has needed overhall for a long time.

I'm really looking forward to the goodies CCP give us as compensation.
6million worth of free skillpoints would be really nice and while were at it can we lower the cost of my clone - 30mill is just plain annoying.
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1097 - 2012-03-07 10:58:41 UTC
Still wondering why people think they should get free SP out of this. Namely, 3x more SP than they invested.

Unless you somehow trained your BC skills up 4 separate times, I fail to see why players should be given SP's to cover doing so. You trained it once... reimburse the SP's necessary to train it once again, into a specific race.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#1098 - 2012-03-07 10:59:03 UTC
Here's the problem as I see it and there are many of us in this same boat. I've had Battlecruiser skill trained since they first came out in 2004 (?) and on most days, I will fly any one of three different types of Battlecruisers across two different races - Minmatar and Caldari.

You now propose to introduce racial variants of the Battlecruiser skill and whilst you may reimburse my BC5 skills as allocatable skills, I will not have enough skill points available to train both Caldari and Minmatar Battlecruisers up to level 5 which then means the ships I'm flying are not as effective. I then have to waste training time to bring both those ships up to former effectiveness. On top of this, because I have every racial Cruiser at level 5, I can fly every racial Battlecruiser but after your changes, I'm loosing the ability to fly two of those racial Battlecruisers which means even more time wasted.

This is just on one character. I have five characters that will need to go through this unnecessary change and it will cause a whole lot less aggravation to implement the tier changes without adding racial Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

leich
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#1099 - 2012-03-07 10:59:39 UTC
These changes are an awful idea.

they are not needed

stop wasting development time on un needed changes
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1100 - 2012-03-07 11:02:19 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
Here's the problem as I see it and there are many of us in this same boat.
…and if you look at the posts linked in the OP, you'll notice that they have your problem covered.