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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

First post First post
Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#261 - 2012-03-02 17:51:13 UTC
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#262 - 2012-03-02 17:55:54 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
I sleeped 1 day over this - and I can tell you, I am still raging about what our PR-blue cop Darius Johnson tells us here.

You confess between the lines, you did nothing several months at least vs bots and cheaters. You do not confiscate or track their ill-gained ISK. All you do, is giving them a 14day ban and hope, they now really, really find their rightous way to be no more cheaters. This is not, how power works!

Acknoledged you did some work and fu_cked u_p - then the result is overall still f_uck u_p and not minus x minus = plus how you want to sell it to us.

I have a question for you:

How many days you think a botter with a tengu needs to break even, if he calcs in, that you ban him and he is losing the account with the tengu+char for it?

All you did, you catched some small fish and bragg about it.

I told you, from my experience many of them had the bots for months ,becuase you did nothing against them. Even if they get banned, it is still a huge profit for them.


We can disagree without being disagreeable. Please try to maintain some degree of civility as per the forum rules. Being directly insulting really doesn't engender me to want to respond to your posts.

To your points as I can grasp them:

Confessing between the lines - The notification that the system had been off for some time was directly in the dev blog before a single post was made. I have no idea how this can be construed as trying to hide anything.

14 day ban - Our numbers showed that to be effective and that was the policy that was chosen at the time. We also stated we'd change that policy if it was found to not be working, which is why changes have been made. In addition it is not merely a 14 day ban it is an escalation of bans. We also reserve the right to increase this and may very well do so, but only if this proves to be ineffective.

"All you did, you catched some small fish and bragg about it.":

A) We didn't brag about anything. This blog wasn't even going to be written. The detections were re-enabled quietly and the blog itself was written to directly respond to things players had noticed and were talking about. I'm not sure how that can be considered bragging but if you think the better move is to simply let people make up stories about what's going on without an explanation I will inform you that you are incorrect.

B) The scope of what we've caught and missed remains to be seen. I'm not in the business of speculation.

"Even if they get banned, it is still a huge profit for them" - That also remains to be seen. They don't seem very happy at the moment at all the nothing you claim they've lost.

Have a wonderful weekend!

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Xantor Bludberry
#263 - 2012-03-02 17:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Xantor Bludberry
----
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#264 - 2012-03-02 17:58:26 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Nmae and shame the Corps and, especially, the Alliances who are shown as the worst offenders and you will change the rather morose perceptions people often have about anti-botting efforts.


As I said this is constantly being reviewed, but a casual reading of this thread will highlight that this isn't as simple as just deciding to do so. There's a tremendous impact on all players not just botters and much of that impact could be negative or flatly illegal.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#265 - 2012-03-02 18:00:36 UTC
Xantor Bludberry wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We're very well aware of the various websites out there people may use to illegally purchase product. There's a bit more to it than that but it's really kind of off topic. I'd be happy to have a discussion about RMT at the appropriate time. Grab me if you're heading to fanfest even. :)

I'm not quite sure what the concept of "RMT" is well correlated the word "discussion". I believe that there should be an expression "total destruction". I, as a Russian, a very unpleasant, in fact, ever hear the words addressed to us that we are totally stuck in RMT.
You know, there's a game "World of Tanks." There is no RMT. Because money is not transferable. Perhaps this is a harsh measure, but perhaps, for what it is worth the time period to implement?


That's the EVE conundrum really. One of the core concepts of the game is that everything can be built, sold, bought and transferred among players. With that comes the ability to do bad things and it's really to us to solve that problem. I agree it would be simpler to turn all your items purple and bind them to your character so you can't give them to anyone ever, but then it wouldn't be EVE it would be some other game where you could more than likely still purchase things on websites on the Internet. :)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
United Federation of Conifers
#266 - 2012-03-02 18:08:10 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xantor Bludberry wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We're very well aware of the various websites out there people may use to illegally purchase product. There's a bit more to it than that but it's really kind of off topic. I'd be happy to have a discussion about RMT at the appropriate time. Grab me if you're heading to fanfest even. :)

I'm not quite sure what the concept of "RMT" is well correlated the word "discussion". I believe that there should be an expression "total destruction". I, as a Russian, a very unpleasant, in fact, ever hear the words addressed to us that we are totally stuck in RMT.
You know, there's a game "World of Tanks." There is no RMT. Because money is not transferable. Perhaps this is a harsh measure, but perhaps, for what it is worth the time period to implement?


That's the EVE conundrum really. One of the core concepts of the game is that everything can be built, sold, bought and transferred among players. With that comes the ability to do bad things and it's really to us to solve that problem. I agree it would be simpler to turn all your items purple and bind them to your character so you can't give them to anyone ever, but then it wouldn't be EVE it would be some other game where you could more than likely still purchase things on websites on the Internet. :)


Once, a looong time ago. I read about this interesting activity. It is called sleep. Kinda strange, but you just lay down someplace comfy and close your eyes and somehow some pictures appear (like playing EVE but with more boobies). You should give it a try sometime! Christ man! Don't kill yourself to answer our silly questions!


Xantor Bludberry
#267 - 2012-03-02 18:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xantor Bludberry
---
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#268 - 2012-03-02 18:13:11 UTC
kakmonstret wrote:
Another metric that could be interesting and maybe give a hint on th effectiveness of different system is to relate to the "Report a bot" system.

So how many of the bots banned had previously been reported by a player? How many characters have been reported in total by players? My guess is that the latter will be huge and probably quite useless. But the first could be interesting as my hunch is that players might be good at finding bots, sadly I think we have a large amount of false positive in that reporting to.

If a large portion of bots actually are tagged as such by players maybe it would be worth it to use more costly methods for finding bots in this group?


Yep we have this. I haven't looked at it yet and I really dont' want to go crazy until we get at least one more round of data.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#269 - 2012-03-02 18:14:22 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xantor Bludberry wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We're very well aware of the various websites out there people may use to illegally purchase product. There's a bit more to it than that but it's really kind of off topic. I'd be happy to have a discussion about RMT at the appropriate time. Grab me if you're heading to fanfest even. :)

I'm not quite sure what the concept of "RMT" is well correlated the word "discussion". I believe that there should be an expression "total destruction". I, as a Russian, a very unpleasant, in fact, ever hear the words addressed to us that we are totally stuck in RMT.
You know, there's a game "World of Tanks." There is no RMT. Because money is not transferable. Perhaps this is a harsh measure, but perhaps, for what it is worth the time period to implement?


That's the EVE conundrum really. One of the core concepts of the game is that everything can be built, sold, bought and transferred among players. With that comes the ability to do bad things and it's really to us to solve that problem. I agree it would be simpler to turn all your items purple and bind them to your character so you can't give them to anyone ever, but then it wouldn't be EVE it would be some other game where you could more than likely still purchase things on websites on the Internet. :)


Once, a looong time ago. I read about this interesting activity. It is called sleep. Kinda strange, but you just lay down someplace comfy and close your eyes and somehow some pictures appear (like playing EVE but with more boobies). You should give it a try sometime! Christ man! Don't kill yourself to answer our silly questions!




<3 almost done then I'll go kill some people or something on the internet

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#270 - 2012-03-02 18:15:36 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
My perspective has always been that we make a client to interface with our server and that's what you're allowed to use


Oh really? Isn't it more like a pc game, soon a console game, a number of websites like evegate, an XML API and maybe a JavaScript API (more a client interface really)? Because if we take that statement literally, everyone interfacing his evemon, eft or pyfa with the API uses an interface to the server that is not allowed.


I was oversimplifying so if we're going to be forum lawyers about it, yes we make a client AND an API in order to interface with the server. :)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Wai Ish'inre
Abyss Heavy Industries
#271 - 2012-03-02 18:30:39 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
[Stuff


Are you going to be dressed as an Aeronaught at FanFest?

Also- 14 day bans are kind of a joke- if you manage to angry a community mod/dev on the forums with witty prose or lewd comments, you get a 60 day ban, what gives?
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#272 - 2012-03-02 18:32:13 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


There's no discussion about changing it at this time. I'm just leaving us an out because I like to talk like I'm in court and someone's going to read this back to me in the future. It happens sometimes on the Internet.


I like that, keep it up!

Also: MUHAHAHAHAHA, locked chars FOR EVAR!1!! \o/
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#273 - 2012-03-02 18:44:53 UTC

I do not like, how you waste time to argue for 14day bans against some chars with 3-4 months training and only a tengu on it. As long as you do not confiscate ISK and big assets, you will be always wrong.

Plz bring some stats, where the illigal ISK go to and you have to ban this guys. Ban just some accounts, who have only a char, 3-4 months old, + tengu will not change anything.

Did you ever watch how real investigators vs organized crime work? NSA remote is the trip USA is on, but it is not, how you stop anybody big in business. You have to take their assets and freeze their money. In Italy they do it better, because the have to. If there is an investigator serious, he confiscates the assets a clan. It happens often, if one boss/clan is fallen already, but they take it and then they auction the assets. This is the right sign to say, ok this guy is done. This is how you do it. If you just arrest some henchmen, nothing will change.



Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#274 - 2012-03-02 18:50:08 UTC
Wai Ish'inre wrote:

Also- 14 day bans are kind of a joke- if you manage to angry a community mod/dev on the forums with witty prose or lewd comments, you get a 60 day ban, what gives?


A pay per month game is not a free forum.

Also, I am sure their current ban length comes from trying different lengths and it fits the "straighten up the casual 1 account botter" (probably the majority, wetting their pants when they notice they got banned) while still providing increasing penalties for the hard core cheaters.

What is the real deterrent is not the insta-capital penalty but a widespread feeling that you WILL be caught.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#275 - 2012-03-02 19:22:55 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

<3 almost done then I'll go kill some people or something on the internet



http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSC_56HNIxyy22qaBes73fcC6OuOZjDOJkIgk_5W-asvw1sW009ObolXulJxw

Where I am.

Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#276 - 2012-03-02 19:52:50 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Wai Ish'inre wrote:

Also- 14 day bans are kind of a joke- if you manage to angry a community mod/dev on the forums with witty prose or lewd comments, you get a 60 day ban, what gives?


A pay per month game is not a free forum.

Also, I am sure their current ban length comes from trying different lengths and it fits the "straighten up the casual 1 account botter" (probably the majority, wetting their pants when they notice they got banned) while still providing increasing penalties for the hard core cheaters.

What is the real deterrent is not the insta-capital penalty but a widespread feeling that you WILL be caught.



14 days is a chunk of time to anyone who actually likes to play eve online, and indeed many people who 'casually bot' do like the game. If they aren't bright enough to stop after a sharp warning, then sure you need to kill them dead - but the guys you really want are the 10 bots/VMs/VPNs etc etc who roll around in billions of ratting income every single day and RMT it. Botting for easy ships and faction goodies and pimping your ride may be wrong and it is certainly impacting the economy to a degree - but it is not the same level as the large scale Botting networks run by players to make RL monies.

The small guys will shut down once it becomes clear that it is a 'when' rather than an 'if' you get caught.

How well you catch the big fish will determine what happens next, and it is clear to me from kugu/SH/etc that these monied individuals are already up and running with new accounts, new IPs, and new/spare characters. And seriously, **** em.


SabotNoob
Doomheim
#277 - 2012-03-03 00:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: SabotNoob
Part of the reason why market botting is so rampant is because updating large amounts of orders is such a pain. I posted about this in the "Give me all your little things" thread, but I'll just mention it here again and maybe you can pass it along (I know it's not your department).

Right now, if you double click on an outstanding order in your Orders window, it brings up the item's information window. Why can't this be customized so that you can have it bring up the item's market information instead? Then, when you right click and Modify Order the item, the amount is NOT highlighted, thus creating an extra step of double clicking it or Cntrl+A to highlight it and change it.

So here's the current process:

-Right click on order
-View Market Details
-Right click on order
-Modify Order
-Double click on amount in the Modify Order window
-Enter

See how many steps are there? Imagine doing that over and over again to 100+ orders. IT SUCKS. I can have about 180 outstanding orders and do this manually. Trust me, the current method stinks. People are turned off by it, or resort to bots.

A more efficient way:

-Double click on order to bring up Market Details
-Hit Shortcut/button to modify highlighted order
-Enter new order amount (the amount in the Modify Order window is ALREADY highlighted- that eliminates the highlighting/selecting step)

Efficient, isn't it? Putting in a Buy Order should should be similar to this as well.

Again, I know it's not your department, but I'm just throwing it out there to bring attention to something I think needs fixing, and is pushing players to use bots.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#278 - 2012-03-03 02:03:07 UTC
SabotNoob wrote:
Part of the reason why market botting is so rampant is because updating large amounts of orders is such a pain. I posted about this in the "Give me all your little things" thread, but I'll just mention it here again and maybe you can pass it along (I know it's not your department).

Right now, if you double click on an outstanding order in your Orders window, it brings up the item's information window. Why can't this be customized so that you can have it bring up the item's market information instead? Then, when you right click and Modify Order the item, the amount is NOT highlighted, thus creating an extra step of double clicking it or Cntrl+A to highlight it and change it.


Or simply add the "view market details" button to the "modify order" window.
Endeavour Starfleet
#279 - 2012-03-03 02:07:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I'm not quite sure what you're asking for here. It seems to me that you're involved in business ventures which carry with them some risk. In those ventures you're clearly dealing with people you can't trust and if I'm tracking this correctly you're asking me to ensure you that if bad people do things we won't reverse the transactions and I simply won't ever make a blanket statement like that based on potential future scenarios. Everything is dealt with on a case by case basis and every business venture carries risk. CCP does not subsidize that risk for you and it's to you to determine that the isk you're gaining is being gained legally. If you're engaging in markets such as loans which are beyond the intent of our systems by design then that risk is yours.

You could make an argument that CCP should design some form of guaranteed loan system but that wouldn't be my department. Every time you make a transaction outside of the scope of our controlled systems such as the market or contract system you are choosing to accept that risk.


Thank you for your reply.
I did not mean about the risk of losing ISK. I meant about the risk of being banned myself just because someone cheated / RMT in the "chain" that ends with me holding collateral.

Also, I read that in other MMOs they flag players handling large amounts of ISK and I think the 100B I would get, could make me blacklisted somewhere.


My personal opinion on the subject is this.

If you ever suspect the funds you have received is generated against the EULA petition and gives as much info as you can.
Endeavour Starfleet
#280 - 2012-03-03 02:13:27 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Can we keep this topic about real solutions about botting instead of it becoming another "Nerf teh local" silly topic. Botting is a different matter than you not being able to get that juicy kill because a real player is paying attention.

Removing local wont kill botting. Hitting report bot is the best thing we can do. If you are running into juicy bot targets report them and let CCP get teh bot remove mail.


Now about this whole "Bot banz before teh Fanfest" thing. I do believe CCP has had some communication on the subject between these waves but I will say this.

While I applaud your efforts on this CCP you have to keep up the pressure on these botting idiots. And continue to talk about it and continue to urge people to use the report bot function. There has been far too many able to say "CCP likes botting because of PLEX" on this forum and it needs to stop. Constant communication will help.

I agree that 10 bot bans is better than a single message on the forums. However you simply cant let such rumors grow because they actively sap the morale of the active players. Even if it is as simple as "Ok report the botting idiot and let us get to work Twisted "


I don't disagree that we need to be better at communicating. It's something we've highlighted internally quite often and why I spend days following these threads.


Understood I am just stating that in my opinion even simple communication can seriously help people feel they are empowered to actually do something against botters.

That's why say if a topic comes up saying "Wtf CCP why is teh botter still in mah system" You simply say "Report him and we will see what we can do Twisted " If someone says "Frak that CCP luvs them some botters for PLEX" You say "Not true report them and see how much we really luv them Twisted "

Simple but effective at getting players to actually do something. And maybe even getting more people reporting blue bots.