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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

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Author
Noir Elsuno
#281 - 2012-03-03 03:00:17 UTC
We will see how efficient u will do it this time. I believe I can remember a time there was a similar announcement and after all it seemed that CCP gives a **** on all replies about spotted bots, macros and hackers.

A other thing is the effect to the economy in eve. I really hate all the bothers out there, but I hope I am wrong with it, after all the years about doing nearly nothing I really can imagine that all the bothers out there makes the market thing a bit more affordable. not sure but with all that items on the market (mining, mission etc) from the botters I think it could have an effect on the markets prices too.

But like I said, we will see how restrictedly u go out for them this time. And I am not sure why, but I think cheaters (in my eyes bothers are cheaters swell) should be banned perm if they are detected.

Whats about other accounts from the same person? does they got banned aswell? If not, forget about all I wrote before, then nothing will change.
Didi Baraccuda
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-03-03 03:02:47 UTC
Noir Elsuno wrote:
We will see how efficient u will do it this time. I believe I can remember a time there was a similar announcement and after all it seemed that CCP gives a **** on all replies about spotted bots, macros and hackers.

A other thing is the effect to the economy in eve. I really hate all the bothers out there, but I hope I am wrong with it, after all the years about doing nearly nothing I really can imagine that all the bothers out there makes the market thing a bit more affordable. not sure but with all that items on the market (mining, mission etc) from the botters I think it could have an effect on the markets prices too.

But like I said, we will see how restrictedly u go out for them this time. And I am not sure why, but I think cheaters (in my eyes bothers are cheaters swell) should be banned perm if they are detected.

Whats about other accounts from the same person? does they got banned aswell? If not, forget about all I wrote before, then nothing will change.


indeed
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#283 - 2012-03-03 05:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Oh and another thing regard to bots. It's a good thing CCP is taking some action against those players that engage in such activity, but the best thing CCP could do is make game changes that creates an environment unfavorable to bots in the first place.

Remove Local Chat Intel from Null Sec and add random false positives to DScan.

Fix Wardecs and make NPC corps somewhere only for raw newbies or automatically part of a Faction War system.

Take the leash of the Sandbox and players themselves will sort most of this out on their own.


Game design isn't my department. I'll caveat what I'm about to say having said that and also stating that I'm not responding directly to your above suggestions.

We're simply not going to design our game, played by piles of people legitimately, around a few bad apples. We may make changes because they make sense from a gameplay perspective or to spice things up or for a plethora of other reasons, but we're not going to sic the design team on making it impossible to bot via complete randomization of everything or captchas or *insert flavor of the day barrier to getting things done in a videogame here*.

Not addressed at you directly but it is a statement I wanted to get out there and your post gave me the shot. I'll also say that, yes design is a component of our strategy and while it may seem contradictory to what I said above it's not I just can't give specifics today.


Thanks for the reply Sreegs, your efforts in dealing with botters and communicating with the EVE community here is genuinely appreciated. Still very underwhelmed by the punishment , 14 days is barely a slap on the wrist for someone who has gone out of their way to get a third party program with the specific intent to cheat in the game.

While it is understood you did not respond to my specific suggestions, and I appreciate why,. I will say this, EVE needs holistic treatment that addresses the disease not merely treating the symptoms, and that can only be done at the design level. A lot of us are hoping that Inferno moves in that direction and really delivers.
Endeavour Starfleet
#284 - 2012-03-03 06:22:32 UTC
Well the forum ate my $#@%#$$ post so ill say it simple.

14 days with a 3 percent 2nd ban rate seems to be working.

Report the bots. Once they rectify the botters who do it for shiny ships and can be reformed. They can focus on the RMT and Alliance bots.

Report blue bots. Alliances can't seriously make "No report Blue Bots" rules.
Orbit Uranus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#285 - 2012-03-03 07:33:19 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Report blue bots. Alliances can't seriously make "No report Blue Bots" rules.


Alliances aren't playing EVE to be CCP's police task force on bots. Let the ones who get paid for it find the bots.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#286 - 2012-03-03 07:53:28 UTC
Noir Elsuno wrote:

Whats about other accounts from the same person? does they got banned aswell? If not, forget about all I wrote before, then nothing will change.


They are all banned, not just the bot account(s).


Noir Elsuno wrote:

A other thing is the effect to the economy in eve. I really hate all the bothers out there, but I hope I am wrong with it, after all the years about doing nearly nothing I really can imagine that all the bothers out there makes the market thing a bit more affordable. not sure but with all that items on the market (mining, mission etc) from the botters I think it could have an effect on the markets prices too.


Bots reduce spreads between buy and sell orders. To you it might seem good, but all that ISK they suck off legit traders are then converted in real money to sell with RMT.
Making ISK and items in EvE is so easy that bringing the "but bots make things more affordable" argument, is really a stingy statement.


The only negative effect I foresee is that legit null-sec and WH inhabitants will grab all the benefits.

Hi sec newbies and miners? They are constantly target of "KILL THE BOT!" campaigns and now we start seeing "dilatory campaigns" with people encouraging to report everything you see (because EVERY miner really looks like a bot unless you spend 3-4 hours to see if they log off / kill them).
If I was a miner in these days I'd just stop playing it. Besides the lowest rewards in game you get the highest probability to be griefed up to forced account termination.

This will cause well bigger items cost increase than banning 10 market bot accounts.

And the "14 days are a slap on the wrist" my ass. First of all if for any reason you were unjustly banned, you are flagged for life. I will believe anyone can succesfully turn CCP "bot ban" decision the day I will see a petition text saying so. Because with the current situation you are given Z E R O ways to exculpate. You take the bone in the ass and that's it. And everyone around you "well these things happens tralalalah!"

Second, even if there was a way to exculpate, you'd still get no reimbursement, your POS would go offline, if it's in low sec it will likely get destroyed (just to mention a couple of effects).

The only ones who won't be scratched by a 14 day ban are the real bot-as-profession exploiters because they certainly don't have all their assets and money tied in their disposable accounts. But there's more: they won't be scratched by 1 month or even 2 months bans. They have 10-20 disposable pilots, some of them probably in "hatchery accounts" unrelated with the ones at risk of being caught. They get new accounts also by hacking other people accounts. How much a cheater will care of a 14 day or 1 month ban done on a pilot they hacked? Zero.

On the contrary, in the next days there'll be people reporting whole (hi sec only!) constellations of unsuspecting players because "99.999999999999999999999% miners MUST be bots because I read it on the forums so it's true". Among the volume there will be guys who ALT TAB mining for 8h a day because they do it a work / work at home and their behavior will be undistinguish-able from bots. They will get banned. And no way to recourse / prove anything, the game provides them ZERO tools to, except beg CCP for mercy (I'd like to read *1* that begged CCP for unban and got believed by them).

Consequence Zero
Non Affiliation
#287 - 2012-03-03 10:21:48 UTC
Hypothetical Question: Why do confirmed Bot characters get a permanent ban on character trading, yet players that would prefer that very option are not allowed character sales denial etc.

As a security measure, this would make sence in my opinion.

If a player does not have the intention to ever sell his/her character, but is still at risk from a "fire-sale" from a random hack...

Maybe its an option that comes with the security key fob from last years FF. P

(And no I have not been hacked, banned, or presented a fancy key fob. Just an observation i've noticed)
Endeavour Starfleet
#288 - 2012-03-03 12:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
Orbit Uranus wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Report blue bots. Alliances can't seriously make "No report Blue Bots" rules.


Alliances aren't playing EVE to be CCP's police task force on bots. Let the ones who get paid for it find the bots.



You do realize this is a highly suspicious remark no?

We all lose to bots. Reporting them Blue Grey or Red will help everyone including the goons. Help CCP fix this issue so that the game is better for everyone.

Quote:
On the contrary, in the next days there'll be people reporting whole (hi sec only!) constellations of unsuspecting players because "99.999999999999999999999% miners MUST be bots because I read it on the forums so it's true". Among the volume there will be guys who ALT TAB mining for 8h a day because they do it a work / work at home and their behavior will be undistinguish-able from bots. They will get banned. And no way to recourse / prove anything, the game provides them ZERO tools to, except beg CCP for mercy (I'd like to read *1* that begged CCP for unban and got believed by them).


CCP has stated that absusing the report system will have consequences. And there are quite a few ways to tell bot miners from the real ones. And there is no evidence of mass false positive bans. Just alot of whiny botters.
Xantor Bludberry
#289 - 2012-03-03 13:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Xantor Bludberry
----
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#290 - 2012-03-03 13:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

CCP has stated that absusing the report system will have consequences. And there are quite a few ways to tell bot miners from the real ones. And there is no evidence of mass false positive bans. Just alot of whiny botters.


Waiting to see *1* report about someone having had those "consequences".

Also waiting to see your infallible method for discerning an alt tabbed legit miner with "normal" name doing his stuff 8h a day vs a bot.


Xantor Bludberry wrote:

Ok, I will suggest another, less than an incredible idea: remove the ability to sell game time for ISK. I believe that all evil is gone from it.


Bots were in game (in every MMO actually) well before one could sell game time for ISK.
People, expecially PvPers, want ISK / shiny stuff anyway and those with fat wallets may be tempted resorting to RMT.
voetius
Grundrisse
#291 - 2012-03-03 16:31:07 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Also waiting to see your infallible method for discerning an alt tabbed legit miner with "normal" name doing his stuff 8h a day vs a bot.


Maybe I can help you out here Vaerah. When you blow up a Hulk or Mackinaw and you see the pod warping off to the station and then coming back to the same spot their ship was in and "mining" in the pod for the 18 minutes or whatever it takes to fill a Hulk that would seem a pretty infallible method to me.

HTH
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#292 - 2012-03-03 16:34:13 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Nmae and shame the Corps and, especially, the Alliances who are shown as the worst offenders and you will change the rather morose perceptions people often have about anti-botting efforts.


I'll do you one better. If an account is character locked (no transferring) for abuse, also visibly flag the characters on it to name and shame the players for their behaviour.

Maybe make it a 2nd strike thing, maybe have it expire after X time period, but I can see that acting as a strong deterrent. How many corps are going to want their pilots wandering around openly flagged for cheating?

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!

Belloche
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#293 - 2012-03-03 16:46:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

CCP has stated that absusing the report system will have consequences. And there are quite a few ways to tell bot miners from the real ones. And there is no evidence of mass false positive bans. Just alot of whiny botters.


Waiting to see *1* report about someone having had those "consequences".

Also waiting to see your infallible method for discerning an alt tabbed legit miner with "normal" name doing his stuff 8h a day vs a bot.

.



Vaerah,
I agree with you and understand that you do not want to see a single innocent person banned. I also get that you are trying to be the voice of reason by not joining the mob with torches and pitchforks. I believe you went off the cliff! I feel that the only possible way to get what you want, CCP could NEVER BAN ANYONE AGAIN! Is that what you are asking for? It seems to me that you want CCP to tell exactly what methodology they are using to determine bots. If they say on the forums, bot programmers would incorporate that info into their programs. Since no one is infallible, I agree that they need to minimize mistakes. However, I am willing to accept 95% accuracy since this is a game and not real life.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#294 - 2012-03-03 16:49:02 UTC
voetius wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Also waiting to see your infallible method for discerning an alt tabbed legit miner with "normal" name doing his stuff 8h a day vs a bot.


Maybe I can help you out here Vaerah. When you blow up a Hulk or Mackinaw and you see the pod warping off to the station and then coming back to the same spot their ship was in and "mining" in the pod for the 18 minutes or whatever it takes to fill a Hulk that would seem a pretty infallible method to me.

HTH


That's like saying "I diagnosed that guy's stomach: I eviscerated him and found out he was healthy indeed!".
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#295 - 2012-03-03 17:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Belloche wrote:


Vaerah,
I agree with you and understand that you do not want to see a single innocent person banned. I also get that you are trying to be the voice of reason by not joining the mob with torches and pitchforks. I believe you went off the cliff! I feel that the only possible way to get what you want, CCP could NEVER BAN ANYONE AGAIN! Is that what you are asking for? It seems to me that you want CCP to tell exactly what methodology they are using to determine bots. If they say on the forums, bot programmers would incorporate that info into their programs. Since no one is infallible, I agree that they need to minimize mistakes. However, I am willing to accept 95% accuracy since this is a game and not real life.


Well, thank you there's at least one person who understands what I want to say.

It's a tiny bit different though. I am ok with accuracy being 95%. I am even ok with super-perma banning at first strike those who run cheat software that cannot be confused with legit other stuff you could have on the computer. But I am less OK for general purpose "engines". I.e. some years ago I had Autokey installed to enable 5 mouse buttons in old games. If I still had it and CCP considered it a bannable software (or is it? No idea) I'd get banned without even knowing why. And no way to convince them I did not mean to use it for EvE!

But my biggest issue - and I am not being expecially altruistic here - is with heuristics. Ok let's imagine they have a 95% accuracy. With the previous CCP very mild attitude, 95% would be ok. You get a penalty just because you happened to be unluckly to fulfill some parameters. It would also happen once a year (when CCP felt like showing they were figthing bots, like before Fanfests or expansions etc.).

With the CCP advent of "serious mode", the same guy who happened to be in that 5% now is permanently flagged. He won't have an idea about why so he will keep playing his way and the next week the "system" (now always on, not just once a year) will detect him as cheater again.

Third case: you swap something with someone. You can't know whether he's legit or not. Was that contracted Raven Navy Issue a money laundry? Who knows. Yet you risk all sorts of issues. It's easy to say "EvE has risk, you have to accept it".
No, the game risk is fine: you undock with 73 PLEXes in Iteron and get popped. Though luck. But this is RL risk (RMT induced) risk: you get an item and voilà banned. CCP Sreegs can say: "sure just contact us and get it sorted on a personal case. Too bad *any* writing under the EULA clause of the petition system takes 2 weeks to 1 month just to be replied the first time, and those were just questions (yes I am asking CCP in game too)! In those 2 weeks one can lose all his POSes.

Now, with all the 3 cases above, it would be fine to have a 95% accuracy and indeed is VERY COMMENDABLE off CCP to finally have cranked in an high gear after years of slacking.

But what happens now is that the 95% (I am using your number as example) is going to be continuously re-checked. Imagine 99% guys "pass" this week. 1% gets banned. Then 99% of the remaining ones pass next week and 1% get banned. Then 99% next week. Sounds allright, no? Nope.
Use some probability calculus and you'll see how easy will become to be in the "unlucky 1%" after some time.

This - in my opinion - prompts a need to figure out a way for the players to be able to prove their innocency. Because it gets easier and easier to be the unlucky black sheep and the consequences are harsher and harsher but without a corresponding improvement in the way to prove you were just unlucky, not a cheater.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#296 - 2012-03-03 19:24:50 UTC
Quote:
Don't do anything bad today,

Huh!?! You do know this is Eve right, where Empires are forged by doing bad things .. GBTWOW !!!!!11111 Big smile

PS: Love the character lock solution, elegant in its simplicity.
Tester128
Perkone
Caldari State
#297 - 2012-03-03 19:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tester128
What you should really implement is this - if a character is banned and were petitioned as a bot before - ppl who have done this should get a nice letter - Thank you for petitioning bot %username, it is now banned for x days.

even a little medal in the decorations section "This character was botting and was banned x times" will be ok as long as it is always visible to general public

Also you should really look into missionrunning bots in highsec.
Belloche
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-03-03 22:20:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:




But what happens now is that the 95% (I am using your number as example) is going to be continuously re-checked. Imagine 99% guys "pass" this week. 1% gets banned. Then 99% of the remaining ones pass next week and 1% get banned. Then 99% next week. Sounds allright, no? Nope.
Use some probability calculus and you'll see how easy will become to be in the "unlucky 1%" after some time.

This - in my opinion - prompts a need to figure out a way for the players to be able to prove their innocency. Because it gets easier and easier to be the unlucky black sheep and the consequences are harsher and harsher but without a corresponding improvement in the way to prove you were just unlucky, not a cheater.


Do you mean is there some extra software I can install on my machine (that CCP can check) to see that I was NOT a botter?
Is that what you mean? I see no way to disprove a negative. Is that what you are asking?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#299 - 2012-03-03 22:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Belloche wrote:

Do you mean is there some extra software I can install on my machine (that CCP can check) to see that I was NOT a botter?
Is that what you mean? I see no way to disprove a negative. Is that what you are asking?


Here are a couple of ideas:

1) Someone reports a guy as botter => his report immediately triggers a snapshot of the reported guy computer (like the debug dump), on a low priority thread so not to disrupt his gameplay. That would avoid CCP to only use heuristics and thus have an higher chance to ban someone who does not deserve it. The dump would also help at discovering new undiscovered bots.

2) For the transactions stuff: make them actually mean their name: transactions. A guy contracts me a Supercarrier for 3rd party. Before accepting the contract I click a "start secure transaction" button on the contracts UI which instantly creates a record of the thing happening. The record will hold a time stamp and will add to a "CCP secured transactions" table and warns CCP to check that transaction.
Once they find the contractor was a RMTer, every transaction between me and him past that saved time stamp is rolled back so I get back my stuff without getting banned myself. I actually warned CCP to check for that stuff so they can't put me in the same boat of that RMT guy.
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#300 - 2012-03-03 23:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlos Aranda
Orbit Uranus wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Report blue bots. Alliances can't seriously make "No report Blue Bots" rules.


Alliances aren't playing EVE to be CCP's police task force on bots. Let the ones who get paid for it find the bots.


This is very wrong. In RL, too. If you do not fight criminals, they take over your world. Especially alliances, who have Corporation, who accept the EULA and kick botters, must go more public. Name and shame. If CCP does not do it, name and shame CCP, too. Silence by the good guys helps only the cheaters. It is the worst that can happen.