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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

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Salvos Rhoska
#121 - 2017-05-23 16:19:39 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a scam and like any other scam, it's set so the scammer can't lose anything except maybe some his time. You can't "fix" this.

Well yeah, easy isk at no risk. Isn't that what carebearing is?


Perhaps scamming is a form of carebearing, but that is an empty semantic victory.

Frosys analysis of what constitutes a scam remains accurate, whether its carebearing of sorts, or not.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2017-05-23 16:30:40 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a scam and like any other scam, it's set so the scammer can't lose anything except maybe some his time. You can't "fix" this.

Well yeah, easy isk at no risk. Isn't that what carebearing is?


Perhaps scamming is a form of carebearing, but that is an empty semantic victory.

Frosys analysis of what constitutes a scam remains accurate, whether its carebearing of sorts, or not.




Perhaps? Bear

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2017-05-23 16:31:53 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a scam and like any other scam, it's set so the scammer can't lose anything except maybe some his time. You can't "fix" this.



Well yeah, easy isk at no risk. Isn't that what carebearing is?


There technically is some risk. You could mess up a contract for example and the hauler would just cash in your items that were supposed to be delivered.

The real difference between bearing and scamming is that if you are scamming, you can only fall to your own misstakes. Bears can be "outplayed" while a scammer can only really burn himself. It's a relatively safe ISK making niche if you are willing to play the long game.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#124 - 2017-05-23 16:47:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a scam and like any other scam, it's set so the scammer can't lose anything except maybe some his time. You can't "fix" this.



Well yeah, easy isk at no risk. Isn't that what carebearing is?


There technically is some risk. You could mess up a contract for example and the hauler would just cash in your items that were supposed to be delivered.

The real difference between bearing and scamming is that if you are scamming, you can only fall to your own misstakes. Bears can be "outplayed" while a scammer can only really burn himself. It's a relatively safe ISK making niche if you are willing to play the long game.



Technically. Bear

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#125 - 2017-05-23 17:46:45 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's a scam and like any other scam, it's set so the scammer can't lose anything except maybe some his time. You can't "fix" this.



Well yeah, easy isk at no risk. Isn't that what carebearing is?


There technically is some risk. You could mess up a contract for example and the hauler would just cash in your items that were supposed to be delivered.

The real difference between bearing and scamming is that if you are scamming, you can only fall to your own misstakes. Bears can be "outplayed" while a scammer can only really burn himself. It's a relatively safe ISK making niche if you are willing to play the long game.

Technically. Bear


There are scams that require significant investment to even attempt, let alone pull off.
Then there are others that require nothing except spamming Jita chat.

So, yes, Gimme, you are right, that it is a technicality.
But Frostys is right too, that the ideal is losing as little, insofar as possible.

And both apply to everything in EVE, scams and otherwise.

And yes, technically, CODE are carebears.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2017-05-23 18:17:27 UTC
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Barricading your house so the mail delivery man can't give you a package and then suing him because he didn't deliver that package should not be a thing.



in a game like EVE it sure as hell should be, as is blowing up the house of the guy that sued you.


Yeah perhaps if it actually took effort to do so and not just have a magical button deny the delivery.


Ahhh the stupid is strong here.

I love how these types ignore the set up costs involved. So much easier and it fits their slanted narrative.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2017-05-23 18:21:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yaosus wrote:
Free will =Progress.

Some citadels will become well known for honest trading while other will be avoided or blown up... you never know who are you scamming :)



As it should be. If a citadel owner is doing 'nefarious' things players should be using the tools they already have (ie communicating with others about the activities, war decs, hiring groups to destroy the citadel etc etc) rather than running straight to mommy CCP asking for a fix.

Why are we playing a game if we want the developers to play it for us?



Because there should be a balance between mechanics and player interactions.

Having ****** courier mechanics is on the wrong side of that balance. Trade is a basic function of the game and this mechanical abuse is contrary to CCP's stated goal of moving trade to citadels.


Why not give citadel owners the ability to just confiscate everything in their citadel? Simple, it would be **** and nobody would use citadels. But of course you would have your super 1337 pro player interactions.


People like you mean well, but you think CCP can game mechanics away human nature.

Let me tell you what's gonna happen if/when CCP 'fixes' the situation to your satisfaction. The scammer types that you think are being nerfed are going to find another way to screw you and everyone else over, and CCP is going to have to try to fix that too.

Look at the histroy of this game. EVERY time CCP tries to do what people are asking for in this thread (ie 'fix' a game mechancis to 'make it better'), it got worse.

The buffed exhumers, more miners died. The added anchor rigs, more people got bumped. They added that awoxxing switch, awoxxers got craftier. They added safety pop ups and mission guides and people STILL can't figure out how to do things. They made gameplay and the UI more 'user friendly' and people are complaining more loudly than ever.


It...does....not...work.... It being the idea that you can fix your way our of people being lazy and stupid enough to fall for something they shouldn't. Sure it sucks to be locked out of a citadel after you have accepted a courier contract (I guess, I wouldn't know, I avoid high sec where this kind of bullshit and the bullshit complaints always come from), but that just means you were stupid for not planting a "security alt" *ie use one of the other 3 slots you get on your account to have a one day old alt with contracting 1 just in case of shenanigans) there before accepting.




People already have all the tools they need to not get got. CCP changing things around isn't going to help you, and if history is the judge, CCP tinkering with the system too much will just lead to even more frustration.


In short: you can't patch out/away stupid.

Another example, allow freighters to have low slots. What do people do? Anti-tank their charon and fill it with 6 billion ISK in cargo and then wonder why they got ganked.

You can't patch out/away stupid.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Keno Skir
#128 - 2017-05-23 18:23:09 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:

An entrepreneur with malign intent inflitrates an organization and subverts it from inside. That's a difficult task and requires extensive planning, dedication, earning trust of the members etc.


I dont understand why you consider turning on and off a switch a great enterprise. Any cheeky baboon can do that and it does not make it harsh, rutheless gameplay, it makes it an annoyance easily avoided.

I don't see why you compare it to ganking because that requires a certain effort and timed dedication from the ganker. Nobody asked CCP to make it easier or to remove the intended risk element, the request is the removal of an exploit introduced by poorly implemented mechanics.


You 'don't understand' and you 'don't see'. There is therefore not a great deal I can do to disabuse you of the curious notions contained in your post.

Presumably, what you mean to say is that the citadel 'exploit' requires no effort and is therefore not to be considered equal with awoxing and ganking.

In terms of the effort required, I've no doubt that citadel/contract stuff is a piece of cake (I don't 'do' citadels). However, I'm more interested in the outcome, the effect of the activity - and that is fully in keeping with the PvP flavour of EVE Online (and of Highsec, in particular).

It's wise to engage the brainbox before mounting the soapbox...


You're still trading in a citadel with all the risk involved because you have no control over it. You have however control over a signed contract due to the presence of the delivery box. Simple as it sounds.

The owner still can turn the lights off and freeze your jc or assets whenever they wish which results in a perfect valid reason for citadel elimination. What you defend is basicaly wasting time that can be spent in pvp flavoured activities.

To put it clear so that your soappy brain can get it since, as you mentioned, you're not into citadels:

You could have ganked that hauler returning with valuable cargo if the delivery box would have had allowed the transaction; instead you have an empty hauler cruising down the pipe with a player bored and frustrated.


Really depends on the player...

A good player (one that we want to keep) will be scammed once and learn from it, potentially even planning revenge further down the line, maybe even negotiate.

A bad player (one that we want to purge) will be scammed once and take to the forums to berate CCP for allowing them to be so stupid, claiming that whatever mistake they just made is driving away new players and killing EvE.

Lets all try not to be the second guy.

I re-iterate : Place an alt in the destination Citadel before accepting the contract, use this alt to move the package out once the citadel has been locked down. Please stop saying there are no mechanics to save the courier.



Again. I'm not talking about the curier or the scammer. I'm talking about how it affects the gameplay. Let's say you build a citadel with the intention of turning it into a trusted, successful, market hub, and maybe, once successful, freeze all assets in it and post another interesting to read player made eve story.

The design flaw will hurt you more than the parties you meantioned because the scammed has learn from it and the scammer has only the intention to provoke grief. How do you fix the situation? Because as you know, in HS, citadels pop up like mushrooms after rain.

Do you, as an hypotetical malicious genious, consider it is worth the time and effort to take on such a project? Does the damn delivery box favoos such context or rather denies it completely?


I think we all enjoy reading such stories, maybe we get inspired by them and from what I see most eve players take pride in player created lore. IF the game play allows it of course. Otherwise is easy putting on a troll face and turning a switch off with a dumb grin on our faces under the pretense of content.


Serious question : Have you considered that it's partly this mechanic at work, which allows one citadel to differ in terms of trustworthiness to another? That without this difference, an entire area of gameplay will die out along with the courier scams? You would reduce citadel owner gameplay to nothing but tax differences and location, which is boring.

You said you're talking about how this affects gameplay, but as with most complaint threads you are completely ignoring one or more additional relevant playstyles. The people doing this properly, as i have explained before, are working with trading groups to build trust rather than spouting rubbish on the forums about how unfair life is.

Trust is the most valuable commodity in the game, why would you remove this incredibly important aspect just to make your courier contracts even easier?

If i might request you answer my post directly this time? I feel they are very relevant points you haven't touched on yet.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2017-05-23 18:31:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:

And like I said there SHOULD be a balance.

Do you think it would be fine if I could gank a freighter in an Ibis?

People like you pretend oversights and balance issues do not exist ever. Everything is fine and nothing should ever change.

CCP should look at this themselves and determine if these mechanics are in line with the role they intend for citadels.



Why do people like you always fall back on the "you don't like change" thing?

No one said anything about never changing anything. But they WHY is important. No one in this thread has given a single good reason why CCP intervention is necessary over simply asking people to use the tools they already have.

It's a mistake to call for modifications to something when you yourself could fix your problem with a tiny bit of fore thought, because this causes other problems down the line. Scroll up a bit and you will see that even Salvos Rhoska understands this (no offense Salvos lol).

People get emotional when they think something is unfair and should be changed, but what I honestly think happens in these cases is that you dislike it so much you don't recognize the risk that it could get worse if CCP tinkers with it. there are Soooo many examples of this, like Dominion Sov where people were predicting that the changes would make things harder for people like goons when in fact it enabled Goon Dominion over much of null.

CCP intervention is just not the way to go most of the time.


Not only that, but the extreme opposite fallacy is seen here too. "Oh, you think it should be fine if people can gank a freighter with an ibis!?!?!"

I'm not even going to respond to that level of stupidity beyond noting how stupid it is.

I will add that the risk here can be easily and 100% avoided if it is too much for a player. Don't accept courier contracts to a citadel. Just as it is freighter pilot who invites the gank by putting 6 billion ISK worth of cargo into an anti-tanked ship and not using a scout.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2017-05-23 18:38:29 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:


Serious question : Have you considered that it's partly this mechanic at work, which allows one citadel to differ in terms of trustworthiness to another? That without this difference, an entire area of gameplay will die out along with the courier scams? You would reduce citadel owner gameplay to nothing but tax differences and location, which is boring.

You said you're talking about how this affects gameplay, but as with most complaint threads you are completely ignoring one or more additional relevant playstyles. The people doing this properly, as i have explained before, are working with trading groups to build trust rather than spouting rubbish on the forums about how unfair life is.

Trust is the most valuable commodity in the game, why would you remove this incredibly important aspect just to make your courier contracts even easier?

If i might request you answer my post directly this time? I feel they are very relevant points you haven't touched on yet.


Yup, a dropbox would, IMO reduce emergence in the game. Citadel owners have two routes: honest or dishonest. Each has it's pluses and minuses. Right now, the owners decide which way they want to go. They can even change later on (e.g. the honest guy can try to cash in on the trust he as built up). A dropbox pretty much removes this. The choices available to the owner decrease. Further, it reduces the benefits to being trustworthy in that there is one less way for a player who wants to be trustworthy to demonstrate he is trustworthy.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jones Beach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2017-05-23 18:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jones Beach
Khara Hirl wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
If this becomes a big problem, people will simply stop taking those contracts.

It's self correcting.

No need to howl for CCP because you don't bother to check the drop off location and get blapped.

Mr Epeen Cool



No no, see what you're not getting isn't that I can't pay attention to contracts, my point is that a mechanic is in place that lets people REJECT your entry even after you have a courier contract going to that citadel, this can be fixed by allowing deliveries outside the citadel.


There is a big red warning that you get when you consider accepting this type contract telling you that you might not be able to complete it because the destination is player owned. What more do you need? LTR?!?!? In fact, this mechanic has existed forever with null sec outposts and stations, the only thing that has changed is that player owned stations are now in highsec and lowsec in addition to null. Dont want to run the risk - dont accept the contract - problem solved.
Salvos Rhoska
#132 - 2017-05-23 19:00:32 UTC
Fk it.

Citadels have so many other problems that this is anyways a non-issue.

Just dont accept a courier contract to a Citadel you arent sure about.
Scam problem solved.

Fly stuff to and fro at Jita like everyone else with any sense in this mess.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#133 - 2017-05-23 19:07:43 UTC
Jones Beach wrote:

There is a big red warning that you get when you consider accepting this type contract telling you that you might not be able to complete it because the destination is player owned. What more do you need?


Apparently, that big red WARNING is not enough lol. I'll bet most of the people who get had in scams like this quickly click through that warning box and don't even think of it at all.



I predicted something like this would happen a while ago when CCP started talking about the future of structures. High Sec players have always been so utterly dependent on 100% open NPC structures that dealing with things owned by real people (like null sec players have always had to) takes them completely by surprise. And they don't like it.

It highlights what is IMO the biggest problem with high sec compared to the rest of EVE up to this point. There is nothing about high sec that organically teaches players to be mindful and careful, so when things happen to people in high sec (at the hands of other people) they lose their minds.

In low, wormhole and null space the environment itself can kill you (afk on a gate in null and gate rats could kill you, an npc dread or titan can land on you in a anomalie or belt and kill you, any wormhole rat can ruin your day if you aren't prepared, in low sec and null sec you can jump into a system and not realize it's under an incursion and get blapped in seconds etc etc.

But nothing really does that in High Sec, it takes real people fighting against complicated mechanics to screw you over in high sec, which lets people be super complacent and thus even easier to 'get' than people outside of high sec. Which is why almost all the scammers (and gankers) are in high sec too.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#134 - 2017-05-23 19:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Jenn aSide wrote:
Jones Beach wrote:

There is a big red warning that you get when you consider accepting this type contract telling you that you might not be able to complete it because the destination is player owned. What more do you need?


Apparently, that big red WARNING is not enough lol. I'll bet most of the people who get had in scams like this quickly click through that warning box and don't even think of it at all.



I predicted something like this would happen a while ago when CCP started talking about the future of structures. High Sec players have always been so utterly dependent on 100% open NPC structures that dealing with things owned by real people (like null sec players have always had to) takes them completely by surprise. And they don't like it.

It highlights what is IMO the biggest problem with high sec compared to the rest of EVE up to this point. There is nothing about high sec that organically teaches players to be mindful and careful, so when things happen to people in high sec (at the hands of other people) they lose their minds.

In low, wormhole and null space the environment itself can kill you (afk on a gate in null and gate rats could kill you, an npc dread or titan can land on you in a anomalie or belt and kill you, any wormhole rat can ruin your day if you aren't prepared, in low sec and null sec you can jump into a system and not realize it's under an incursion and get blapped in seconds etc etc.

But nothing really does that in High Sec, it takes real people fighting against complicated mechanics to screw you over in high sec, which lets people be super complacent and thus even easier to 'get' than people outside of high sec. Which is why almost all the scammers (and gankers) are in high sec too.
I live in hisec


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In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Salvos Rhoska
#135 - 2017-05-23 19:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jenn, well said otherwise, but come on.

Its not just HS enjoying the mechanics there, its everyone else too exploiting it with even greater leverage.

HS is a playground for NS.

Everyone knows this.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#136 - 2017-05-23 19:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jenn, well said otherwise, but come on.

Its not just HS enjoying the mechanics there, its everyone else too exploiting it with even greater leverage.

HS is a playground for NS.

Everyone knows this.



What's being discussed doesn't happen with any frequency outside of high sec. This is because much more commerce between neutral parties happens in high sec. People trade with allies and friends outside of high sec with the exception of some low sec market activity.

Other than some hilarious "you locked me out after I bought a carrier form you" stuff in low sec citadels, this is a high sec thing. Like most complaints on this forum...

The problem is high sec fosters a false "expectation of safety" that scammers use to beat people with. You can't fix that without fixing the 'victims'.
Salvos Rhoska
#137 - 2017-05-23 19:24:22 UTC
Ill buy that once transit between HS markets and NS suppliers is remedied with sufficient risk.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#138 - 2017-05-23 19:28:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ill buy that once transit between HS markets and NS suppliers is remedied with sufficient risk.



What does that have to do with what's being talked about? We get it, you don't like jump drives, but that has nothing to do with the fact that scammers exist in high sec because that's where the unaware people tend to live.
Salvos Rhoska
#139 - 2017-05-23 19:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jenn aSide wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ill buy that once transit between HS markets and NS suppliers is remedied with sufficient risk.
What does that have to do with what's being talked about? We get it, you don't like jump drives, but that has nothing to do with the fact that scammers exist in high sec because that's where the unaware people tend to live.


I already addressed the Citadel/courier scam being legit.

Simple.
Dont accept courier contracts to Citadels you dont trust.
Case closed.

This has to do with the rest of your rhetoric regarding the relationship in mechanics between HS exploitation by NS.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#140 - 2017-05-23 19:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yaosus wrote:
Free will =Progress.

Some citadels will become well known for honest trading while other will be avoided or blown up... you never know who are you scamming :)



As it should be. If a citadel owner is doing 'nefarious' things players should be using the tools they already have (ie communicating with others about the activities, war decs, hiring groups to destroy the citadel etc etc) rather than running straight to mommy CCP asking for a fix.

Why are we playing a game if we want the developers to play it for us?



Because there should be a balance between mechanics and player interactions.

Having ****** courier mechanics is on the wrong side of that balance. Trade is a basic function of the game and this mechanical abuse is contrary to CCP's stated goal of moving trade to citadels.


Why not give citadel owners the ability to just confiscate everything in their citadel? Simple, it would be **** and nobody would use citadels. But of course you would have your super 1337 pro player interactions.




What's being missed here is that a courier scam would have entailed a suicide gank, meaning a loss of ships and security status.

Also known as "cost".

Actual scamming, like the sort we love and hate in Jita, involved real scamming "power of persuasion" tactics that made victims of players who were both greedy AND gullible. It's always been hard to find sympathy for people who fell to scammers. Even goon recruitment scams.

The problem described here entails that it's now possible to get the same results of a suicide gank, without the cost of a suicide gank. And the victim is not as greedy nor gullible. It's unlike a real scam it's more of a "gotcha game".

And "gotcha games" are less about any actual game. We might as well be playing this game on a forum somewhere.

That this is missed by the Church of HTFU pro gank crowd is of no surprise as they have already managed the mental gymnastics of overlooking how the bumping mechanic is a "no cost" form of warp disruption, and how scanning cargo is free intel as it does not warrant a suspect flag (go into a mall parking lot and start looking into car windows and see how long before security shows up).

So it'll be business as usual for the game with the same people as before.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!