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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#541 - 2017-03-29 14:52:05 UTC
Ghost Blackman wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Glad to be able to get this ball rolling and start bringing the community into the early process of developing these structures. We're releasing these blogs now so that we can focus Fanfest on listening to you folks. We also look forward to hearing from you all in this thread.

Here's the first set of Q&A after the early feedback and discussion:

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.

Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today.

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.
For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.


MY PLAYER IDEAS FOR GUIDE CHANGES.


Just change the role of the Siphons Units to be allowed in normal belts and suck the rock up in small mounts. Anyone should be allow to take from it. But if they do in empire can be flag for can stealing.


Comet mining should take place in the game too. You may ask what is this or how should it work? Well I can only point to how. Comet Path Finding


Risk Vs. Reward.

So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part.
Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.'
Capital size Tractor Beams will pull the comet and pull it closer.
Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break off parts of the comet.
Leaving behind belts to mine from. As the comet will break away parts and keep going. Enjoy.

OR

So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part.
Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.'
Capital size Tractor Beams will slow the comet and pull it closer.
Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break the comet.
Leaving behind belts to mine from. Enjoy.


Comet fishing :)

They're not going to replace what they've already worked on with a whole new thing, that requires new art and everything.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
asho Armer
THE RABID RABBITS
#542 - 2017-03-29 20:42:17 UTC
forget hi sec all ccp need to do is bring moon mining to, wh, space
Pleasure Hub Node-514
Pleasure Hub Hotline
#543 - 2017-03-29 21:55:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.


I'd lean more toward T3 Gas harvesting if you anchor them to suns (special suns in wormholes).

Instead up tractoring up a moon pie, you'd be clustering super-heated plasma. The moon detonation phase would shift to triggering a 12hr-24hr solar flare event that blocks out dscan visibility of people on grid with the sun and shortens probe life to 5 minutes...or something along those lines.

'One night hauler' The tell all story of a pleasure bot in Jita 4-4
Ghost Blackman
Doomheim
#544 - 2017-03-30 00:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Blackman
Not replace but adding on to the current feature. Shocked They said they were looking into other ways to gather resources for solar systems. So take this new feature and add on to it with comet mining and add the new moon mining idea.




MY PLAYER IDEAS FOR GUIDE CHANGES.


Just change the role of the Siphons Units to be allowed in normal belts and suck the rock up in small mounts. Anyone should be allow to take from it. But if they do in empire can be flag for can stealing.


Comet mining should take place in the game too. You may ask what is this or how should it work? Well I can only point to how. Comet Path Finding


Risk Vs. Reward.

So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part.
Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.'
Capital size Tractor Beams will pull the comet and pull it closer.
Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break off parts of the comet.
Leaving behind belts to mine from. As the comet will break away parts and keep going. Enjoy.

OR

So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part.
Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.'
Capital size Tractor Beams will slow the comet and pull it closer.
Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break the comet.
Leaving behind belts to mine from. Enjoy.


Comet fishing :)[/quote]
They're not going to replace what they've already worked on with a whole new thing, that requires new art and everything.[/quote]
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2017-03-30 15:32:14 UTC
Pleasure Hub Node-514 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.


I'd lean more toward T3 Gas harvesting if you anchor them to suns (special suns in wormholes).

Instead up tractoring up a moon pie, you'd be clustering super-heated plasma. The moon detonation phase would shift to triggering a 12hr-24hr solar flare event that blocks out dscan visibility of people on grid with the sun and shortens probe life to 5 minutes...or something along those lines.


MIght be nice to make WH space unique by having the moonpie break into random chunks of random materials from any sec space. So you'd get some ore, moongoo, ice, T3 gas, booster gas etc in varying amounts from none to full on nullsec size chunks

Lorewise this would be because the materials available are from accretion of materials from the impact of comets/asteroids on the surface given that most useful stuff was mined out by the sleepers.
Pisyha
Stardust-Guardian
Fraternity.
#546 - 2017-03-31 09:03:35 UTC
Know what would go hand in hand with this?

Covert exhumers.

ORE looks to new frontiers as the competition close to home is too high, those neighbours minerals sure do look nice. Hit n run mine, covert haulers already exist. Black ops bridge can bridge em.
Gaius Clabbacus
Control Alt Delve
Goonswarm Federation
#547 - 2017-03-31 11:27:31 UTC
Pisyha wrote:
Know what would go hand in hand with this?

Covert exhumers.

ORE looks to new frontiers as the competition close to home is too high, those neighbours minerals sure do look nice. Hit n run mine, covert haulers already exist. Black ops bridge can bridge em.


They are called Prospects, look them.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#548 - 2017-04-01 00:49:01 UTC
AOAm Adranas'Lira wrote:
I like the sounds of this.

My only comments would be I understand not diluting the T2 resources pool down by adding mineable moons all over high sec. Risk verses rewards must stay balanced. I do think it would be interesting though see drills being deployed somehow in high sec though. If it is introducted it should be restricted to 0.5, perhaps 0.7 systems or lower. I also came up with two other options for deployment.

1. Moon mining activity spawns standard ores for collection (Veldspar, Plagioclase, etc). Maybe some mid-grade ores. I realize this doesn't fall in line with the idea of moon goo, but just a thought.
2. If moon products were introduced into high sec, they need to be lower value, and lower qualities than would be present else where in space (null, etc). Important to keep risk/reward in check. This is were usage in lower security system would be important; so they wouldn't pop up everywhere.

Thanks for the info Fozzie.


I've heard some suggest that if they added the ability to pull chunks of mooncrust up in highsec, that it should only yield highsec ore/minerals instead of t2.

Others have said that tritanium is often a bottleneck in WHs and maybe a WH refinery should be given the option to pull up a ton of trit along with the t2 mats.
3xAWarpNinja Hilanen
Cruisers Crew
The Initiative.
#549 - 2017-04-02 17:13:54 UTC
So i had a thought on this issue, risk vs reward can be possibly more accurately represented by doing something like keeping the old system whilst also adding the new system, now before you splurge and say HURR DURR THIS IS A BAD IDEA, hear me out. the idea being that the refineries themselves have 2 modes, the bulk mining mode, which ill refer to as the 'new' mode, and the normal mining mode, which ill refer to as the 'old' now with keeping the old mode the numbers for goo generated should be less than current generation by poses(to keep t2 costs stable) whilst adding the new mode into the refineries which would produce huge amounts of moon minerals by the process detailed in the devblog, which allows players to RISK their mining ships/time/money whilst possibly getting the REWARD of getting greatly increased mineral output for that particular moon.


Just my 2 cents
Just Mental
BobVult
#550 - 2017-04-04 07:35:42 UTC
Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2017-04-04 09:50:57 UTC
Just Mental wrote:
Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan

Wormholes are supposed to make you farm other holes and not sit in your own with closed entrances.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#552 - 2017-04-06 12:27:10 UTC
Just Mental wrote:
Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan


I mean, I'd like to be able to close off access to my space completely and harvest as much ore as possible, but it's not going to happen. Same for you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Just Mental
BobVult
#553 - 2017-04-09 00:13:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Just Mental wrote:
Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan


I mean, I'd like to be able to close off access to my space completely and harvest as much ore as possible, but it's not going to happen. Same for you.

No that would take the danger of wh space out of it. Yea you can close your holes but and maybe get a few hours of undisturbed sites if by chance a k162 doesnt open up to you with hostiles but the the point is that theyr now gonna let null pull resouces just a ways off their citidels tobe harvested.. I mean really lol
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2017-04-11 07:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Just Mental wrote:
Querns wrote:
Just Mental wrote:
Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan


I mean, I'd like to be able to close off access to my space completely and harvest as much ore as possible, but it's not going to happen. Same for you.

No that would take the danger of wh space out of it. Yea you can close your holes but and maybe get a few hours of undisturbed sites if by chance a k162 doesnt open up to you with hostiles but the the point is that theyr now gonna let null pull resouces just a ways off their citidels tobe harvested.. I mean really lol

... and then you get special notification don't you? Blink

Yeah, WHs are different and it should be kept in mind when you ask for J-space (or it is K-space? I'm not familiar with these names) features.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#555 - 2017-04-11 17:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: AFK Hauler
After watching and not hearing anything on a couple ideas for the upcoming changes....

1. Please allow for filtered/selected refineries to appear on overview. I don't want 87 bazillion refineries from all over the system to show up when I only need one that matters. I'm sure the rest will mater for mining, but not all the time (like POSs are now).
Currently it's all or none for Upwell structure types...

2. To reduce the obvious hysteria on patch day, please allow for the following consideration... All POSs that currently have active moon mining are automatically converted to the new structure patch day. This will be by placing the packed Refinery (M or L) structure in some cargo hold of the POS (or just dumped in space inside the shield) before patch day. All POSs that have a structure (Med or Large) on patch day will be automatically converted to the new refinery - one-time-only deal. No anchoring timers, no New Eden Moon Rush 2017 type hysteria. If you own the moon and are mining the moon, you get the moon patch day with the new structure.

All items that were part of the old POS are placed in the refinery delivery for the POS owner. TBD maybe.

This is supposing that we will have the opportunity of manufacturing before patch day... Moon rush and build rush on the same day - epic rant day for sure.

3. I find it hard to believe that it's no problem to tractor a huge moon chunk from the planet, but not capable of hauling the asteroids into the refinery station proper. Some slow mechanic for a slow passive maintenance of the asteroid field should be included. Nothing too far fetched, but some mechanic that can be adjusted by CCP to make sure the gears of industry keep turning. This change to moon mining is a BIG change, and I'd like to see more "knobs" implemented to make adjustments as needed. We don't know how big and possibly damaging change this might be. If it's not hurtful to the gears of industry, then all the better. If you don't plan for success, the you did not plan.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#556 - 2017-04-12 00:16:45 UTC
AFK Hauler wrote:
After watching and not hearing anything on a couple ideas for the upcoming changes....

1. Please allow for filtered/selected refineries to appear on overview. I don't want 87 bazillion refineries from all over the system to show up when I only need one that matters. I'm sure the rest will mater for mining, but not all the time (like POSs are now).
Currently it's all or none for Upwell structure types...

2. To reduce the obvious hysteria on patch day, please allow for the following consideration... All POSs that currently have active moon mining are automatically converted to the new structure patch day. This will be by placing the packed Refinery (M or L) structure in some cargo hold of the POS (or just dumped in space inside the shield) before patch day. All POSs that have a structure (Med or Large) on patch day will be automatically converted to the new refinery - one-time-only deal. No anchoring timers, no New Eden Moon Rush 2017 type hysteria. If you own the moon and are mining the moon, you get the moon patch day with the new structure.

All items that were part of the old POS are placed in the refinery delivery for the POS owner. TBD maybe.

This is supposing that we will have the opportunity of manufacturing before patch day... Moon rush and build rush on the same day - epic rant day for sure.

3. I find it hard to believe that it's no problem to tractor a huge moon chunk from the planet, but not capable of hauling the asteroids into the refinery station proper. Some slow mechanic for a slow passive maintenance of the asteroid field should be included. Nothing too far fetched, but some mechanic that can be adjusted by CCP to make sure the gears of industry keep turning. This change to moon mining is a BIG change, and I'd like to see more "knobs" implemented to make adjustments as needed. We don't know how big and possibly damaging change this might be. If it's not hurtful to the gears of industry, then all the better. If you don't plan for success, the you did not plan.

1. CCP wont do that because it is too clean
2.that could be some tricky stuff
3. Smart... too smart
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#557 - 2017-04-18 14:30:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Querns wrote:
This isn't what "top-down income" means.


First time I've seen the thread but caught my eye on this, what does top-down income mean?


"Top-down" income refers to an alliance funding source that is collected solely by actors at the top of an organization, then is dispersed downwards onto line members. (Assuming it doesn't get embezzled.) Moongoo is the archetype of top-down income, as it's handled by the alliance's logistics dudes and line members aren't involved at all.

This is in contrast to "bottom-up" income, where line members perform the money-making activity, and the alliance takes a small slice, usually through taxes. Ratting is the archetype of bottom-up income.

In this instance, CCP is shifting moongoo from top-down to bottom-up income.


I guess FanFest has changed your opinion on this change?
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#558 - 2017-04-21 13:39:16 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Querns wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Querns wrote:
This isn't what "top-down income" means.


First time I've seen the thread but caught my eye on this, what does top-down income mean?


"Top-down" income refers to an alliance funding source that is collected solely by actors at the top of an organization, then is dispersed downwards onto line members. (Assuming it doesn't get embezzled.) Moongoo is the archetype of top-down income, as it's handled by the alliance's logistics dudes and line members aren't involved at all.

This is in contrast to "bottom-up" income, where line members perform the money-making activity, and the alliance takes a small slice, usually through taxes. Ratting is the archetype of bottom-up income.

In this instance, CCP is shifting moongoo from top-down to bottom-up income.


I guess FanFest has changed your opinion on this change?



Another economic factor that's being ignored is the total value displacement by these changes. Right now the moon goo economy is only so big for a single income flow, that is - it's limited to the current number of people participating in moon mining. That includes the investors, producers, reactors, sellers and consumers. That pie has a specific economic size based on the value of each material in the production to consumption chain. Each player gets a specific slice of the pie, which is monetized by the end user.

The size of the pie stays the same under the current proposed changes with the added slice going to a new level of interaction, which is the production. Previously that was a slice that was consumed by a corporation or alliance. However, now that slice will be consumed by everyone who mines the minerals. The level of labor not accounted for in these changes will cause upward pressure on the end consumer to support the new labor activity.

The only relief to the upward pressure is to increase supply to spread the economic burden of production. Someone is going to get paid for their labor one way or another. Keeping the supply at the current level will drive the costs upwards to support the new layer of labor required to produce T2 materials.

If there is no economic relief on the end user, the result will be a natural shift towards capital and faction ships.

Bottom up economics got a new step in the ladder that is not receiving attention or balance.


ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#559 - 2017-04-23 21:50:51 UTC
AFK Hauler wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Querns wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Querns wrote:
This isn't what "top-down income" means.


First time I've seen the thread but caught my eye on this, what does top-down income mean?


"Top-down" income refers to an alliance funding source that is collected solely by actors at the top of an organization, then is dispersed downwards onto line members. (Assuming it doesn't get embezzled.) Moongoo is the archetype of top-down income, as it's handled by the alliance's logistics dudes and line members aren't involved at all.

This is in contrast to "bottom-up" income, where line members perform the money-making activity, and the alliance takes a small slice, usually through taxes. Ratting is the archetype of bottom-up income.

In this instance, CCP is shifting moongoo from top-down to bottom-up income.


I guess FanFest has changed your opinion on this change?



Another economic factor that's being ignored is the total value displacement by these changes. Right now the moon goo economy is only so big for a single income flow, that is - it's limited to the current number of people participating in moon mining. That includes the investors, producers, reactors, sellers and consumers. That pie has a specific economic size based on the value of each material in the production to consumption chain. Each player gets a specific slice of the pie, which is monetized by the end user.

The size of the pie stays the same under the current proposed changes with the added slice going to a new level of interaction, which is the production. Previously that was a slice that was consumed by a corporation or alliance. However, now that slice will be consumed by everyone who mines the minerals. The level of labor not accounted for in these changes will cause upward pressure on the end consumer to support the new labor activity.

The only relief to the upward pressure is to increase supply to spread the economic burden of production. Someone is going to get paid for their labor one way or another. Keeping the supply at the current level will drive the costs upwards to support the new layer of labor required to produce T2 materials.

If there is no economic relief on the end user, the result will be a natural shift towards capital and faction ships.

Bottom up economics got a new step in the ladder that is not receiving attention or balance.




I think the players are aware but Fozzie has curtains over his eyes.

I too wonder if Querns has changed his mind after fanfest?
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2017-04-24 16:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fish Hunter
AFK Hauler wrote:

Another economic factor that's being ignored is the total value displacement by these changes. Right now the moon goo economy is only so big for a single income flow, that is - it's limited to the current number of people participating in moon mining. That includes the investors, producers, reactors, sellers and consumers. That pie has a specific economic size based on the value of each material in the production to consumption chain. Each player gets a specific slice of the pie, which is monetized by the end user.

The size of the pie stays the same under the current proposed changes with the added slice going to a new level of interaction, which is the production. Previously that was a slice that was consumed by a corporation or alliance. However, now that slice will be consumed by everyone who mines the minerals. The level of labor not accounted for in these changes will cause upward pressure on the end consumer to support the new labor activity.

The only relief to the upward pressure is to increase supply to spread the economic burden of production. Someone is going to get paid for their labor one way or another. Keeping the supply at the current level will drive the costs upwards to support the new layer of labor required to produce T2 materials.

If there is no economic relief on the end user, the result will be a natural shift towards capital and faction ships.

Bottom up economics got a new step in the ladder that is not receiving attention or balance.



What matters isn't so much the number of people involved its the total man hours or character hours (mining alts count). Right now most of the character hours are used up with hauling materials and reactions babysitting. Will the new system use as many hours hauling and reacting or less? Everyone sees that the mining part time spent is going up substantially, my question to Fozzie is will the amount of hauling remain the same? Will the distribution of moon minerals be the same or can we expect a more homogeneous availability by region outside of the possible lowsec exclusive materials?

Players will always gravitate to what is the best. Faction ships are very cheap relative to the tech 2 and certain tech 2 ships are strategic requirements so very little shift will happen.