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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#501 - 2017-03-27 14:20:11 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tribal Trogdor wrote:
How is the transition going to be made from towers to refineries?

Obviously you can just release them and all the towers stop working. I would imagine there would have to be a period where they both work while the refineries are produced in the proper quantity or RIP economy.

If there's a tower on a moon currently, do those owners keep the right to mine the moon until either the tower dies or they put up a refinery?

What of POS replacement? I know they'll still hold relevance for sov stuff like jump bridges and such, but once they're off the table for moon mining and reactions, their value is going to go down the toilet. Is the plan to do NPC buy orders for them in the future, and if so, would they be based on the value at the time? Or maybe the plan is to turn them into their input material items? The latter would probably be a better way to go

. Main issue here is some people have tons of money tied up in reactions farms. They're going to want to liquidate what they have in towers, to buy refineries. And they're all going to want to do it at once because they have to keep things running/hold the moons until the day the new structures come out.


Hopefully, all the moon miners and reactors will just simply stop working on the release date.

There are significant stockpiles of moon minerals held by basically everyone with a brain. Those need to be drained. Having a hard cutoff will help that quite a bit.

itll take time to build the new structures tho. A cut off on the release date may not be good because of that.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#502 - 2017-03-27 14:44:17 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Querns wrote:

There are significant stockpiles of moon minerals held by basically everyone with a brain. Those need to be drained. Having a hard cutoff will help that quite a bit.

itll take time to build the new structures tho. A cut off on the release date may not be good because of that.


No, that'll help accelerate the draining of stockpiles quite a bit.

You can pre-build comps and just install the refineries on day 1. The impact to reactors will be minimal. Stockpiles carry the week+ delay on raws through to maximum saturation.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#503 - 2017-03-27 15:10:00 UTC
Querns wrote:


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.

With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.


That's just one part of the picture. Keep in mind that not only are there easier ways to get resources, playstyles also differ quite a bit, and in lowsec there is no sense of control (fun to explore the existing playstyles / niches there, it all revolves around that) where it comes to mining.

Not that anybody from outside of lowsec would be that interested in going there, except if the playstyles match, for the available tiers of rewards in resource harvesting like mining. But this is a state which is derivative, it's not a root cause, if you will.

It's a fun exploration of behaviour following mechanisms, as opposed to the other way around. One is able to reinvigorate lowsec without applying stimuli to low sec demographics to become the same as null, the other is not (instead it effectively promotes that pitfall).

We often think that reward drives choice. It does, but we tend to not fully realise how broad "reward" is. It isn't just ISK, on the contrary. More often than not this comes long after more primary reward connectors like affirmation, identity, playstyle, mentality and so forth. Because we think, we project. And thus we assume. And those who don't, still project - just their own perception on to others Cool

With the concept as it is currently, CCP is firmly in the corner of "we provide the mechanisms for selected targets with healthy consequences for our indexes". It's entirely understandable, but it is a pity. Then again, this is nothing new.

Lowsec has not had much of core attention throughout the years, very often considered a transit zone, at times a dumping ground, irregularly a niche environment. Which is a bit ironic, because in contrast to null it's actually quite diverse. Sometimes lowsec is an extension of highsec, other times of null. Quite often it's a composite dynamic with different playstyles interacting. Which is very different from highsec as well as null - looking at it without recognising these things has been the underlying reason why it's not gotten that much attention, but it is also why it's been largely sheltered. Or protected, if you will. Not any longer.

The one thing which worries me on the current state of this concept isn't how easy it is to counter, to use, to direct or even to abuse. It's that in the long run it enforces a slow but steady adopting of an organisational mold which already exists in a dominant manner elsewhere. Nullsec particularly, but increasingly also highsec (including the recent pattern of null/high entanglements which there too reinforces such developments).

I do think that this is a shame, but also a bit of a stumbling block in the long run. EVE is diverse in many ways, and it should be. If all organic player based organisation stimuli point to the same outcome this doesn't reinforce health of the dynamic, it does the opposite. Granted, it makes it easier to calculate, to model, to capture in indexes of statistics. But it also reintroduces the old trap of having to replace one set of mechanisms which exactly the same (only minor variations, look & feel) when the indexes show saturation or staleness. Funny thing, by that time it's too late, due to groupthink's influence on collective perception, but also due to social intertia and economic effects.

Now I can accept that CCP cannot - so to speak - allocate the resources in order to take the opposite approach (mechanisms following behaviour). But in order to avoid the known pitfalls (EVE has history in many things, aside of stupid amounts of research on all of this being available to CCP) they're going to have to provide more behavioural options. Right now, the current concept is way too static, too predictable, too easy to capture in min/max and n+1, and nothing really offsets the long term negative effects.

So we can all keep debating the detail level of the current "as is" concept until we see blue in the face, or we can accept that the static nature of things will always be subject to ruthless min/max/n+1/narrative drama. And instead see if there's things CCP can add to the model in order to provide room for composite and diverse behaviour. Lowsec folks are going to have to be a tad more expressive though for that to begin, and null should not be so blatant with its directives & narratives.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#504 - 2017-03-27 15:26:29 UTC
SIEGE RED wrote:
Querns wrote:


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.

With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.


That's just one part of the picture. Keep in mind that not only are there easier ways to get resources, playstyles also differ quite a bit, and in lowsec there is no sense of control (fun to explore the existing playstyles / niches there, it all revolves around that) where it comes to mining.


There's no requirement for CCP to maintain the playstyles of folks living in any given area of space. If there was, nullsec wouldn't have changed nearly as much as it has.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Citika
Black Queen Enterprises
Brave United
#505 - 2017-03-27 15:45:42 UTC
The new moon mining mechanic will be huge. The biggest impact this will have is removing AFK, top-level income from alliances and coalitions and replacing it with active, character-based income. This can only be a good thing overall, but the implementation needs to be small enough that an entire fleet doesn't need to be formed to wipe a moon belt, but also big enough that one person (or a small gang) can't wipe the belt within a few hours.

This is going to remove a major source of concentrated income from alliances and dilute it across the alliance members who mine. That alone will change the entire economy. The issue I have is whether this content will be available for anywhere else. Wormholes in particular will suffer from this, while Empire space will just see a change in their economies without being able to do much about it.
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#506 - 2017-03-27 16:22:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
Ocean Ormand wrote:
Iit seems to me that currently we likely have close to a 100% production from the valuable/useful moons. With the new system, it seems likely that the moons in lowsec will be abandoned/unmineable. Mining in lowsec is almost nonexistent now - it hardly seems likely that there are enough miners in the game that will be willing to relocate to lowsec to suddenly start mining in what has traditionally been a hostile environment to mining. If the lowsec moons are not farmed that may significantly reduce the available moon goo. In fact, are there even enough miners to do this at all? There are literally hundreds of different moons out there - can we really expect that folk are going to be rigorously attending all of these timed operations? How much mining will have to be done to obtain the same level of production that we currently have? If we cant achieve something close to the same level we will have shortages of t2 materials. Moreover this is a forced grind being added into the game - show up at this time every week and shoot x-number of rocks is as grindy as it gets. This seems to me something that only benefits the large alliances since they are the only ones that can sustain this sort of grinding in the long term.


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.

With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.


I just want to know - how many mining hours per character will be needed to maintain current levels of moon goo on the market and where ccp expects to get all of these miners to mine this goo.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#507 - 2017-03-27 16:52:01 UTC
Hopefully CCP will put some consideration into making the process of collecting or dissmeinating taxes/bills a little easier. The mining tracker is nice, but using it might become extremely tedious.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#508 - 2017-03-27 16:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Querns wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.

Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.

The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).



Bolded and underlined the important part. The part that explains why Querns is so keen on these changes. Delve, the Drones Regions, other deep 0.0 will be fine. NPC Null, Low Sec, and accessible parts of 0.0 will suffer from these changes.


You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything.

Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#509 - 2017-03-27 17:13:46 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Querns wrote:
You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything.

Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point.


"Inaccessible?" Delve has NPC 0.0 stations, and bubbles were severely nerfed. Our space is the most accessible in the game.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

SnakeTheBest
Brothership Of EVE
#510 - 2017-03-27 17:14:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Glad to be able to get this ball rolling and start bringing the community into the early process of developing these structures. We're releasing these blogs now so that we can focus Fanfest on listening to you folks. We also look forward to hearing from you all in this thread.

Here's the first set of Q&A after the early feedback and discussion:

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.

Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today.

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.
For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.




what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2017-03-27 17:20:31 UTC
SnakeTheBest wrote:

what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?

You'll still be able to do reactions alone. Moon mining can be, too, but not as effectively, since you'll have to undock to mine stuff.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#512 - 2017-03-27 18:14:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
SIEGE RED wrote:
Querns wrote:


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.

With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.


That's just one part of the picture. Keep in mind that not only are there easier ways to get resources, playstyles also differ quite a bit, and in lowsec there is no sense of control (fun to explore the existing playstyles / niches there, it all revolves around that) where it comes to mining.


There's no requirement for CCP to maintain the playstyles of folks living in any given area of space. If there was, nullsec wouldn't have changed nearly as much as it has.


Indeed, but it is a requirement to have a diverse behavioural environment where a multitude of playstyles exist. Whether a given playstyle is feasible, now that is an entirely different debate. As such, CCP has an interest in continuing to provide room for diversity. In truth, changing matters in such a manner that as all work and all play becomes the same everywhere it makes EVE a dull boy (bad Twin Peaks reference moment yes).

And that, is a problem. Granted, in the long run. But resource allocation for swapping things out is also - always - a long term venture.


Anyhow, the case in point was that ISK isn't the sole reward. It is in fact more means than goal in a very primal way. We shouldn't delude ourselves by staring at that detail level. Impetus as such is also just a means to an end, interexchangetable with any other. Making that, a complete non-argument in game design.
Sassums
Repo Industries
#513 - 2017-03-27 18:27:36 UTC
Still no answer or clarification as to why ice products are being added to the list of resources for T3 production.....making WH space even less appealing....
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#514 - 2017-03-27 18:48:43 UTC
Sassums wrote:
Still no answer or clarification as to why ice products are being added to the list of resources for T3 production.....making WH space even less appealing....


You've found a way to run reactions in wormhole space without fuel, an item that takes ice to make? Wow! What's your secret?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#515 - 2017-03-27 19:02:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Querns wrote:
You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything.

Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point.


"Inaccessible?" Delve has NPC 0.0 stations, and bubbles were severely nerfed. Our space is the most accessible in the game.


I have lived in Delve several times. Yes, it has NPC stations. That is a good thing. I wish all 0.0 space had NPC stations nearby.

It's not as bad as the Drones Regions, that's true. It is still a pain in the ass to jump into it. You are still relatively inaccessible compared with Tribute.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#516 - 2017-03-27 20:00:35 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Querns wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Querns wrote:
You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything.

Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point.


"Inaccessible?" Delve has NPC 0.0 stations, and bubbles were severely nerfed. Our space is the most accessible in the game.


I have lived in Delve several times. Yes, it has NPC stations. That is a good thing. I wish all 0.0 space had NPC stations nearby.

It's not as bad as the Drones Regions, that's true. It is still a pain in the ass to jump into it. You are still relatively inaccessible compared with Tribute.


If your only metric for accessibility is "distance from Jita" then sure.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Aisa Anistan
Unidentified Murderers and Young Hack Offenders
#517 - 2017-03-27 21:28:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aisa Anistan
I want to adress the "where we get the miners?"-issue brought up especially by some of the low-sec-guys...

To be honest, the problem isn't the supposed lack of miners but the mentality of larger low-sec-groups as a whole.

For example:
My corp lives near some low-sec-systems in kor-azor and khanid region. These low-sec systems are basically dead, apart from logistic cyno-alts, some moon mining POS's and one, maybe two big(ger) alliances who essentially control all the systems within their respective jump ranges. When they find a target, they hot drop or BLOB it. And for the recieving end this is not funny the first time, and it won't get more fun if done repeatedly and on a daily basis. When you can't figth back in terms of fire-/manpower, you only got 2 options: avoid them and deny content or leave for good.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, if in the same position I would probably do the same. But in doing so, they killed and kill any incentive to go to this area regardless how good the risk/reward ratio might be.

But with these changes even low sec corps will need to rethink this mentality and allowing neutral corps to exploit these new ressources for a " reasonable" price (if they don't want to blueball or invite everyone in their sphere of influence, that is), which could mean more people in low sec and thus more targets to shot for pvpers in general.

My point is: if you're a pvp-focused alliance/corp, you don't have to resort to mining to profit. Let others more willingly do the dirty work for you for a piece of the cake, and blow their stuff if they don't comply. More fun for everybody Cool Make eve mmo again...
Circumstantial Evidence
#518 - 2017-03-27 22:42:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tribal Trogdor wrote:
How is the transition going to be made from towers to refineries?

Obviously you can just release them and all the towers stop working. I would imagine there would have to be a period where they both work while the refineries are produced in the proper quantity or RIP economy.

If there's a tower on a moon currently, do those owners keep the right to mine the moon until either the tower dies or they put up a refinery? [...]
Hopefully, all the moon miners and reactors will just simply stop working on the release date. [...]

If CCP follows the pattern related to refining quoted below, nobody would lose old mechanics during a transition period, but the new method will yield better results. Carrots rather than sticks, to encourage migration to new mechanics.
Quote:
Q: When the new reprocessing bonuses of refineries are introduced, will the refineries give better reprocessing yields than anything available today or will old refining rates get nerfed?
A: We haven't decided on exact number yet, but there's a good chance that it will be a little bit of both.
Baldin Tarmain
B T C
I'm Feeling Good
#519 - 2017-03-27 23:38:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
SnakeTheBest wrote:

what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?

You'll still be able to do reactions alone. Moon mining can be, too, but not as effectively, since you'll have to undock to mine stuff.


I run 8 moons in Lo-Sec. Half my reaction materials come from mined moongoo. All the composites go into the market. Will I run 1..or 2 with the new mechanic? Maybe. How many independents like me are out there? If you have a stat that limits the impact to the economy I would like to see it. Not saying it's not there, just don't know. I run over 2 billion isk a week in composites. Are there a hundred like me? A thousand? How many will stop completely or severely curtail? I may move to other aspects of EvE. Nothing is an absolute, but I am independent because of who I am and what I'm capable of doing.

I still do a little mining, and with that many POSs, I'm always bopping around, not docked all the time. Since the larger corps/Alliances will take down any Citadel/engineering platform when it comes out of reinforcement, the only way to anchor one is to "get lucky".

Kind of sounds like EvE is becoming the land of Cattle Barons. Buy the hired guns and drive the sheep herders and farmers off the grazing land for the good of the town. (Which means their own good.) I begrudge no one the style they want to play, but don't belittle the small people.

That's the rant for this evening.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#520 - 2017-03-28 00:50:47 UTC
Baldin Tarmain wrote:
Querns wrote:
SnakeTheBest wrote:

what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?

You'll still be able to do reactions alone. Moon mining can be, too, but not as effectively, since you'll have to undock to mine stuff.


I run 8 moons in Lo-Sec. Half my reaction materials come from mined moongoo. All the composites go into the market. Will I run 1..or 2 with the new mechanic? Maybe. How many independents like me are out there? If you have a stat that limits the impact to the economy I would like to see it. Not saying it's not there, just don't know. I run over 2 billion isk a week in composites. Are there a hundred like me? A thousand? How many will stop completely or severely curtail? I may move to other aspects of EvE. Nothing is an absolute, but I am independent because of who I am and what I'm capable of doing.

I still do a little mining, and with that many POSs, I'm always bopping around, not docked all the time. Since the larger corps/Alliances will take down any Citadel/engineering platform when it comes out of reinforcement, the only way to anchor one is to "get lucky".

Kind of sounds like EvE is becoming the land of Cattle Barons. Buy the hired guns and drive the sheep herders and farmers off the grazing land for the good of the town. (Which means their own good.) I begrudge no one the style they want to play, but don't belittle the small people.

That's the rant for this evening.


You can run reactions without mining any moons at all. It's typically how I do them, when I'm in the High Effort phase of Eve Online: Noted Space-themed Spreadsheet.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.