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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

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ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#481 - 2017-03-26 22:14:15 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
It is worth thinking about the foreseeable economic consequences of this proposal.

What do we know?

We know that the same tech II input materials are going to require significantly more player effort. So the price will rise for these inputs, as players make choices about how to spend their available time.

NOT EVERYONE HAS MORE TIME TO GIVE TO CCP. Important point, hence the caps. I think this point escapes many CCP directors, but it is a fundamental fact of the real world outside CCP.

So, given the same amount of player time spent mining, moon goo will increase in price. Thewrefore all tech II things will increase in price.

What else do we know?

We know that tech II ships and modules compete with navy and faction counterparts. we also know that the tech II line wont be getting any buffs to reflect their increased price with increased value. Therefore the choice for the consumer will be bigly moved towards the relative value of navy and faction ships.

Navy and faction ships are supplied in the same way, so their input costs stay the same. Their capabilities are not nerfed. Their value for money skyrockets, relative to the tech II ships.

And then what happens?

It is an interesting fact of the former USSR, that great planned economy, that it was never illegal to purchase imported cigars from Cuba or fine coffee from bolivia. You couldnt buy these luxuries in the shops of moscow during the soviet era, but they were never banned.

You couldn't buy them in Moscow, a vast city, because nobody was willing to pay party members the two months salary of bribes that it cost to get a small packet of coffee and ten cigars.

The cost was so great, and the value so relatively small, that the market simply collapsed. There became no market at all, for simple luxuries, in the glorious planned economy.

If CCP do not begin to understand that their customers have choice in the market, and that they cannot impose their plans upon the player base, they run a very real risk of watching as all the industrialists simple stop logging on, and go to invest their time in a more vibrant choice of entertainment.

This change effectively destroys the value, the value for money, of a popular line of ships and modules. It offers nothing to replace what has been made less attractive.

CCP staff look at the numbers and talk about price, as if price and value are the same thing.

The price of coffee and cigars was huge in Moscow in 1988. The market value was about zero.

You will not grow the eve economy by forcing people with choice to adhere to your simplistic little plans. People will simply leave.


Pretty much says it.

Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#482 - 2017-03-26 22:32:44 UTC
I think this will be interesting

Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.

I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#483 - 2017-03-26 22:50:33 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
I think this will be interesting

Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.

I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.



And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining?
Citika
Presumed Ignorant
Cytrite Research Solutions
#484 - 2017-03-27 00:18:34 UTC
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.

Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.

The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).

One solution might be to allow moon mining EVERYWHERE. Sure, give High crummy ores or super low yields or taxes or empire restrictions or only owned by NPCs, but give them something. That way a small amount of materials are always available for the T2 items that everyone needs (Guns, Ammo, Drones), and then allow the high-quality materials to be mined in null.

Another solution might be to allow the refineries to collect some of the materials themselves. A person controlling the refinery may be able to collect a small amount of resources via a gigantic refinery-based mining laser or with fighter-sized drones. This weakens the defenses of the refinery as well, so a balance between offense and mining may need to be considered.

These are just ideas, and they are obviously not the best solutions. Those solutions take time and effort and planning, something I did not do for this post.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#485 - 2017-03-27 01:03:21 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
I think this will be interesting

Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.

I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.



And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining?

Ah, the wonderful sounds of yet another sap who thinks their alliance will FORCE them to mine. I love it. So many people have this intransigent belief moongoo = SRP and it's such a rigid association that they literally cannot conceive of another way to provide SRP.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#486 - 2017-03-27 01:04:19 UTC
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.


So don't mine if you don't want to mine, or don't have time to mine. You can safely pass this feature up; it'll be okay.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Queen of Jita
Neutron Blaster Solutions
#487 - 2017-03-27 02:56:35 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
It is worth thinking about the foreseeable economic consequences of this proposal.

[...]

You will not grow the eve economy by forcing people with choice to adhere to your simplistic little plans. People will simply leave.


I think that you are totally wrong. You just wrote the another post "eve will die". I dont think so. Even if a few players will leave, the another ones will take their niche. It happened thousand times.

In addition all your speculation is built on your imagination how the new system will work. We haven't seen any numbers. We dont know how effective will be the new ore aquiring system. Actually we know the only raw idea and the direction where game will eveolve. So take it easy and don't panic Cool


Personally I love the new idea of moon mining. I think that would be great, if the moon ore belts were rich and impossible for mining with rorqual drones. It would generate a lot of content and create great opportunities for all - big and small corps/alliances.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#488 - 2017-03-27 11:35:47 UTC
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.

Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.

The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).



Bolded and underlined the important part. The part that explains why Querns is so keen on these changes. Delve, the Drones Regions, other deep 0.0 will be fine. NPC Null, Low Sec, and accessible parts of 0.0 will suffer from these changes.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#489 - 2017-03-27 11:50:19 UTC
Querns wrote:
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.


So don't mine if you don't want to mine, or don't have time to mine. You can safely pass this feature up; it'll be okay.



So you don't think that null alliances/corps won't make mining ops compulsory under threat of punitive punishments?

Just as some have mandatory pvp fleets, pve fleets will become mandatory as well to gather the belts.

Mine or don't mine won't be an option unless you want to be (possibly) kicked.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#490 - 2017-03-27 12:05:58 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Querns wrote:
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.


So don't mine if you don't want to mine, or don't have time to mine. You can safely pass this feature up; it'll be okay.



So you don't think that null alliances/corps won't make mining ops compulsory under threat of punitive punishments?

Just as some have mandatory pvp fleets, pve fleets will become mandatory as well to gather the belts.

Mine or don't mine won't be an option unless you want to be (possibly) kicked.


Some might, yes. However, democracy is ever-present in eve; you vote with your feet. Don't stand for an alliance that would press-gang you to mine.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#491 - 2017-03-27 12:08:44 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.

Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.

The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).



Bolded and underlined the important part. The part that explains why Querns is so keen on these changes. Delve, the Drones Regions, other deep 0.0 will be fine. NPC Null, Low Sec, and accessible parts of 0.0 will suffer from these changes.


You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#492 - 2017-03-27 12:19:55 UTC
Querns wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
I think this will be interesting

Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.

I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.



And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining?

Ah, the wonderful sounds of yet another sap who thinks their alliance will FORCE them to mine. I love it. So many people have this intransigent belief moongoo = SRP and it's such a rigid association that they literally cannot conceive of another way to provide SRP.


Don't be so ignorant.

This isn't anything to do with SRP you stupid goon.
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#493 - 2017-03-27 12:21:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Citika wrote:
I see a few issues with this plan:

More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.

Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.

The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).



Bolded and underlined the important part. The part that explains why Querns is so keen on these changes. Delve, the Drones Regions, other deep 0.0 will be fine. NPC Null, Low Sec, and accessible parts of 0.0 will suffer from these changes.


You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


Pure ignorance again from your stupid goon... it remove top down income... NOPE still gonna generate top-level income from it; how you can't see this is beyond me.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#494 - 2017-03-27 12:26:06 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Querns wrote:

You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?

I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.


Pure ignorance again from your stupid goon... it remove top down income... NOPE still gonna generate top-level income from it; how you can't see this is beyond me.


I see that you don't understand the difference between top-down and bottom-up income. Why even join this conversation if you lack even a rudimentary command of finance?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#495 - 2017-03-27 12:27:15 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Querns wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
I think this will be interesting

Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.

I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.



And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining?

Ah, the wonderful sounds of yet another sap who thinks their alliance will FORCE them to mine. I love it. So many people have this intransigent belief moongoo = SRP and it's such a rigid association that they literally cannot conceive of another way to provide SRP.


Don't be so ignorant.

This isn't anything to do with SRP you stupid goon.


I apologize, I forgot that being press-ganged into mining to fill the pockets of the embezzlers at the top of your organization would also be a thing. A grave omission on my part.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#496 - 2017-03-27 12:59:49 UTC
Suggestion: explosion of the chunk shoul create asteroids with very different size. From 1 unit (literaly) to few tens of thousands of moon goo unit. Small pieces should merge together over time (after 1 week there will be only one massive asteroid cloud, easy mineable even by a barge, equiped with the dust harvester ) unless new explosion in the same area will not dispatch particles again.

Benefits:
That will allow ninja mining the moon goo by entities, who does not posess refinery. Otherwise owner just quickly rorqual the fresh belt and warp out.

Details:
Create new AOE module for vacuum clean the small asteroids staight away and give the Primae ability to use it. Turning it on will be like lighting the cyno (everyone will see you and you can not move) but you will wipe even the smallest asteroid in reasonable time.
Create covert op T2 version of Venture, that is able to see remnants of the asteroid dust on D-scan. With two lasers it should be able to mine small moon goo asteroids if the user will like to or it can fit some sort of asteroid dust cloud harvester.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#497 - 2017-03-27 13:45:51 UTC
Iit seems to me that currently we likely have close to a 100% production from the valuable/useful moons. With the new system, it seems likely that the moons in lowsec will be abandoned/unmineable. Mining in lowsec is almost nonexistent now - it hardly seems likely that there are enough miners in the game that will be willing to relocate to lowsec to suddenly start mining in what has traditionally been a hostile environment to mining. If the lowsec moons are not farmed that may significantly reduce the available moon goo. In fact, are there even enough miners to do this at all? There are literally hundreds of different moons out there - can we really expect that folk are going to be rigorously attending all of these timed operations? How much mining will have to be done to obtain the same level of production that we currently have? If we cant achieve something close to the same level we will have shortages of t2 materials. Moreover this is a forced grind being added into the game - show up at this time every week and shoot x-number of rocks is as grindy as it gets. This seems to me something that only benefits the large alliances since they are the only ones that can sustain this sort of grinding in the long term.
Tribal Trogdor
Doomheim
#498 - 2017-03-27 14:09:19 UTC
How is the transition going to be made from towers to refineries?

Obviously you can just release them and all the towers stop working. I would imagine there would have to be a period where they both work while the refineries are produced in the proper quantity or RIP economy.

If there's a tower on a moon currently, do those owners keep the right to mine the moon until either the tower dies or they put up a refinery?

What of POS replacement? I know they'll still hold relevance for sov stuff like jump bridges and such, but once they're off the table for moon mining and reactions, their value is going to go down the toilet. Is the plan to do NPC buy orders for them in the future, and if so, would they be based on the value at the time? Or maybe the plan is to turn them into their input material items? The latter would probably be a better way to go

. Main issue here is some people have tons of money tied up in reactions farms. They're going to want to liquidate what they have in towers, to buy refineries. And they're all going to want to do it at once because they have to keep things running/hold the moons until the day the new structures come out.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#499 - 2017-03-27 14:09:33 UTC
Ocean Ormand wrote:
Iit seems to me that currently we likely have close to a 100% production from the valuable/useful moons. With the new system, it seems likely that the moons in lowsec will be abandoned/unmineable. Mining in lowsec is almost nonexistent now - it hardly seems likely that there are enough miners in the game that will be willing to relocate to lowsec to suddenly start mining in what has traditionally been a hostile environment to mining. If the lowsec moons are not farmed that may significantly reduce the available moon goo. In fact, are there even enough miners to do this at all? There are literally hundreds of different moons out there - can we really expect that folk are going to be rigorously attending all of these timed operations? How much mining will have to be done to obtain the same level of production that we currently have? If we cant achieve something close to the same level we will have shortages of t2 materials. Moreover this is a forced grind being added into the game - show up at this time every week and shoot x-number of rocks is as grindy as it gets. This seems to me something that only benefits the large alliances since they are the only ones that can sustain this sort of grinding in the long term.


You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.

With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#500 - 2017-03-27 14:16:56 UTC
Tribal Trogdor wrote:
How is the transition going to be made from towers to refineries?

Obviously you can just release them and all the towers stop working. I would imagine there would have to be a period where they both work while the refineries are produced in the proper quantity or RIP economy.

If there's a tower on a moon currently, do those owners keep the right to mine the moon until either the tower dies or they put up a refinery?

What of POS replacement? I know they'll still hold relevance for sov stuff like jump bridges and such, but once they're off the table for moon mining and reactions, their value is going to go down the toilet. Is the plan to do NPC buy orders for them in the future, and if so, would they be based on the value at the time? Or maybe the plan is to turn them into their input material items? The latter would probably be a better way to go

. Main issue here is some people have tons of money tied up in reactions farms. They're going to want to liquidate what they have in towers, to buy refineries. And they're all going to want to do it at once because they have to keep things running/hold the moons until the day the new structures come out.


Hopefully, all the moon miners and reactors will just simply stop working on the release date.

There are significant stockpiles of moon minerals held by basically everyone with a brain. Those need to be drained. Having a hard cutoff will help that quite a bit.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.