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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#21 - 2017-03-22 15:40:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Glad to be able to get this ball rolling


literally yeah Big smile


Question though, the devblog states: "However only Refineries deployed near minable moons will be able to fit a moon drill service module."

Is that just a general statement, or can we expect differences between moons in regards to minable, not minable - cause that's a little interesting.

One more question: how will the active gameplay be approached in terms of skills and shiptypes? Any current thoughts or concepts?
Thead Enco
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2017-03-22 15:42:02 UTC
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:
Do you understand the impact this will have on lowsec?

Most of the larger lowsec alliance rely on passive moon income and have less isk making opportunities on an alliance level than nullsec allainces which was outlined on some reddit posts made during the leaks and an article on crossing zebra,

No one in lowsec is gonna mine so rip lowsec????


Yea, AFKSec is still a go since those same people will still be waiting for their super spawns.
Brown Pathfinder
Its a good day to die
#23 - 2017-03-22 15:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Brown Pathfinder
Will we able to scoop up moon crust in wh space?
Maybe in limited numbers?

Also will we able to say put this down in a ore or ice anom to generate more ore to mine? P
also can you please not make them difficult to transport like you did with the other L sized structures.
naed21
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#24 - 2017-03-22 15:43:42 UTC
If not moon minerals, can wh space get something else? Normal asteriods, ice, PI asteriods? (Large chunk of Micro Organisms)
Klatus Doshu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2017-03-22 15:44:06 UTC
What will be the restrictions for wormholes? Are there any ideas around?
Right now you cannot produce T2 materials there by moon mining... will this change?
But I like the new concept very much
Hy Wanto Destroyer
Lowlife.
#26 - 2017-03-22 15:44:48 UTC
Brown Pathfinder wrote:
Will we able to scoop up moon crust in wh space?
Maybe in limited numbers?

Also will we able to say put this down in a ore or ice anom to generate more ore to mine? P
also can you please not make them difficult to transport like you did with the other L sized structures.

They said they dont have plans to exapnd to high or wh space in the dev blog^^
Bill Lane
CRUZADOS
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2017-03-22 15:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bill Lane
RIP pure PVP alliances who rely on some passive income. This change literally makes a mining division a requirement for every alliance.

On the plus side, refining. Cool.

Oh and literally these will be priced in the range of citadels/ECs? So all of the POSes from 145 mill for the small tower moon miners to the billion isk large towers, you're telling me EVERY small tower will need to be replaced by something that costs more than a billion isk. Straight up screwing the small guys, and straight up screwing alliances with no mining groups aren't we CCP? For the record my alliance CAN afford it and DOES have a large mining division, so we're not too worried.

What does concern me is how I, as the alliance CEO, will need to start taxing the hell out of everyone to make sure the alliance is making money. We didn't charge corp fees, paid good money for ore buyback, all that. This was by FAR the main income for us so I could pay SRP, give people good money for ores/salvage, etc. And we really aren't putting very much in the alliance wallet. We're not broke, but we're not rich by far.

Honestly taxing the hell out of everybody sounds like a terrible idea. Guess corp fees are being forced on us now, along with awesome taxes. Come on now, this is really the best we could come up with?
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#28 - 2017-03-22 15:52:05 UTC
Why would you not make moon minerals depletable and make those money moons respawn at random regions/systems rather then this. It would make for much more conent as not only would ppl have to scan down moons, but fights would occur much more often then what they do now.
Also, even tho making this an active thing, it will make life in low sec even harder, as most large alliances in low sec doesnt have industrialists in their ranks.
Im also expecting this to be a lot harder to kill then most moon mining pos's in low sec which usually consists of a small undefended pos these days to be able to make a profit (yes i know, there are other moons then r64s)

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

SonofSilence
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
#29 - 2017-03-22 15:52:07 UTC
CCP and EVE Dev group...

Would you quit gaying up EVE please?

Thanks...
Emmy Mnemonic
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#30 - 2017-03-22 15:53:20 UTC
This clearly opens up for completely new gameplay. And EVE just got a tad bit more complex (is that even possible!?)

First of all, staggering the "ore-field explosions" over a large sov-area, and planning this to allow for your "mining-armada" to cope with all the resource-gathering, will be potentially enormous! If there is also a certain" within bounds" behaviour, where you can not control the exact times with fine granularity, this will be extremely interesting to see how it evolves, when you are to collect R64-capbale new "ore" when several R64 ore-fields explode at the same time in several dispersed places in a region! How fun! How terrible!

Also, potentials for attacking said mining-fleets is interesting! You can potentially deprive an alliance of both income AND mining-fleets if performed correctly. And, AFAIK, it will be possible to tell roughly when a R64 ore-field will "explode". And cloaky alts...and spies...and access to corporation APIs....

One thought; Ore-fields will "explode" in vicinity of a Refinery citdadel, so that mining fleets can be "covered" by the Refinery weapons. So they will spawn completely within the weapon envelops of the Refineries? Or will it be possible to sneak in ninja-mining ships in areas of the ore-fields that are NOT covered by the weapons? Would it be possible to place other citadels in such a way that you get dual/multiple coverage of the ore-fields?

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Muon Farstrider
Partial Safety
#31 - 2017-03-22 15:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Muon Farstrider
I like a lot of this; changing moon mining into an active activity is, IMO, a positive. I do have a bit of a dislike for parts of the ledger feature, though.

Quote:
Each Refinery structure with an active moon drill will keep track of all the mining done in its associated belt, logging the character, corporation, ore type and amount mined. This will allow ...corps and alliances to see who has been ninja-mining their fields without permission.

...we are also investigating opening up the option of tracking entire solar systems worth of mining...

I don't think I like these ideas, at least as presented. IMO you shouldn't be able to gather that sort of information in an automated fashion, at least not for hostiles. If you leave your valuable moon mining operation (that you know exactly when is going to spawn) so unattended that literally nobody is there to see someone swooping in to ninja-mine your goo, then you don't deserve to automagically know exactly who it was. This is the same sort of thing that made siphons worthless.

IMO, it should work something like this. The ledger records character/corp/type/amount on a short delay for alliance members only. When the field is fully mined out and/or despawns, the ledger then reports "this field should have contained X amount of material A, but only Y amount was mined by alliance members, someone ninja-mined X-Y of this material" but does not tell you who or when.

This way you do still know that someone was ninja-mining you, but you don't get automated warning of it until it's already happened and you don't know who. It gives you enough information to warn you that someone is stealing and to guesstimate the scale of the ninja-mining, but if you want to know who to retaliate against you'll actually have to pay attention and follow up with human observation.

This all goes double for full-fledged system-wide mining tracking. Getting full details on enemy activity in an automated fashion over a whole system is silly. Again, some sort of warning isn't inappropriate, but getting full details should require human attention.
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#32 - 2017-03-22 15:54:38 UTC
Bill Lane wrote:
RIP pure PVP alliances who rely on some passive income. This change literally makes a mining division a requirement for every alliance.

On the plus side, refining. Cool.

Oh and literally these will be priced in the range of citadels/ECs? So all of the POSes from 145 mill for the small tower moon miners to the billion isk large towers, you're telling me EVERY small tower will need to be replaced by something that costs more than a billion isk. Straight up screwing the small guys, and straight up screwing alliances with no mining groups aren't we CCP? For the record my alliance CAN afford it and DOES have a large mining division, so we're not too worried.

What does concern me is how I, as the alliance CEO, will need to start taxing the hell out of everyone to make sure the alliance is making money. We didn't charge corp fees, paid good money for ore buyback, all that. This was by FAR the main income for us so I could pay SRP, give people good money for ores/salvage, etc. And we really aren't putting very much in the alliance wallet. We're not broke, but we're not rich by far.

Honestly taxing the hell out of everybody sounds like a terrible idea. Guess corp fees are being forced on us now, along with awesome taxes. Come on now, this is really the best we could come up with?


Invest in pets, err, I mean support networks. Specialised groups - either through relations, subversion, force, whichever works sustainably. I will admit though, it raises the bar, also financially. Perhaps more importantly, it increases organisational complexity.

On the plus side, teamwork also benefits from EVE's economics of scale. It is something to think about.


As for taxes, this is EVE. It's about death and taxes Cool
Bear Templar
iMine Industries
#33 - 2017-03-22 15:55:16 UTC
Yeah it was strange, the edit wasn't there as i was typing my reply but was as I posted it. What?

If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw)

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#34 - 2017-03-22 15:56:57 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Why would you not make moon minerals depletable and make those money moons respawn at random regions/systems rather then this. It would make for much more conent as not only would ppl have to scan down moons, but fights would occur much more often then what they do now.
Also, even tho making this an active thing, it will make life in low sec even harder, as most large alliances in low sec doesnt have industrialists in their ranks.
Im also expecting this to be a lot harder to kill then most moon mining pos's in low sec which usually consists of a small undefended pos these days to be able to make a profit (yes i know, there are other moons then r64s)


Because then null blocks would find themselves subject to stimuli for migration and conflict. You know all this. We've been through this before plenty times in the past.

It's a lobby mechanism that ups the treshold to even consider such an approach - perception problems basically.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2017-03-22 15:57:28 UTC
Bear Templar wrote:
Yeah it was strange, the edit wasn't there as i was typing my reply but was as I posted it. What?


Yeah, and it missed my addition at the bottom, even though I did the strikethrough and added the extra bit in the same edit. Strange.

Thanks for the effort, though! Always happy to be corrected when I'm objectively wrong.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#36 - 2017-03-22 15:58:11 UTC
so you decide to allow multiple structures on the same moon, the owner decides when to set the pull, if the owner isn't there once the pull arrives, it then breaks off for anyone in the area to pull from...

oh boy... the fights on the r64's and the like.. my god

you guys have really lost your minds msh
Emmy Mnemonic
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#37 - 2017-03-22 16:01:11 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
So since Moon mining will change.....
Can you tell us what will happen to mobile siphon units?
can we use these on refining facilities?


This! Siphons?

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#38 - 2017-03-22 16:01:17 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
so you decide to allow multiple structures on the same moon, the owner decides when to set the pull, if the owner isn't there once the pull arrives, it then breaks off for anyone in the area to pull from...

oh boy... the fights on the r64's and the like.. my god

you guys have really lost your minds msh


Nah, seriously small chance for that happening. At least in null. Lowsec is a little different. Keep in mind regional and organisational control, automation, tracking tools and so forth - this would not be a conflict catalyst in null. I can see people trying to sell it as such, but let's be real, we've seen this concept before in the past. With blocks, it doesn't fly.

Now if deposits depleted ..... that would be a different ballgame.
Malcolm Erkkinen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2017-03-22 16:02:59 UTC
So another nail in the coffin of small miners / manufacturers? Surely this means players will need to join a large Corp or get into another line of business.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2017-03-22 16:03:46 UTC
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
So since Moon mining will change.....
Can you tell us what will happen to mobile siphon units?
can we use these on refining facilities?


This! Siphons?


You can siphon by going to someone else's belt and ninjamining it. You'll even get a lot more profit from it than the utterly pitiful amount you get from siphons currently.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.